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Joe57:
Dave,

Sunday is not the Sabbath. Sunday is the day that Christians have used since the beginning of Christianity to celebrate Christ’s rising from the dead. The sabbath is a whole other topic. To answer your question about why we don’t observe the sabbath, read Col 2 2:13-17 for a start.

As for Christmas and Easter, what difference does it make that they happen to be celebrated on the same day as some pagan holiday. The Christians were celebrating the birth and resurrection of Christ while the pagans celebrated their holidays. To the best of my knowledge, the pagan holidays have ceased to exist.

If you want the Bible verse that refutes the need to stay away from unclean food, take a look at Acts 10 9-16.

Your comment about the Pope hardly warants a response. Catholics do not worship the Pope. He is simply Christ’s successor here on earth.

Joe
First off Christ never rose from the dead on sunday.
bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.showResource/CT/HWA/k/463

Col 2:13-17
:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

First of let me say this. God does not just forgive our sins. He forgives our sins when we are baptised and we have dedicated our lives to him. When we are baptised he blotts out the laws of this world from us. these laws which previously ruled our lives befor we commited our lives to his way are the laws which are against us and contrary to us. God says that his laws were given to us as a blessing not a curse that is against us. In verse 16 GOd tells us that no man shall tell us weither these things are right or wrong. Only the bible can tell us these things.

If Acts 10:9-16 is the only thing you can come up with for eating unclean foods than why even bother. God was testing Peter. If they were allowed to eat the unclean foods why was Peter hesitant to do it. God does not contradict himself. Why would he command something to be done if he was just going to do away with that commandment later. God tells us he is no the author of conusion. This would be causing confusion within his teachings.
 
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Joe57:
As for Christmas and Easter, what difference does it make that they happen to be celebrated on the same day as some pagan holiday. The Christians were celebrating the birth and resurrection of Christ while the pagans celebrated their holidays. To the best of my knowledge, the pagan holidays have ceased to exist.
You truley think that these holidays just “happen” to be on the same days as the pagen festivals. The origins of these festivals are the pagen festvals. Do a little reseach. Its out there for everyone to find. Unless you just want to go on believing your church is right about everything. God tells us not to add to or take away from his word. We are not to add our own customs and traditions and we are not to ignore his Holyday Festivals. How could that be any clearer.
The problem with keeping these holidays is that they are not in the bible. How could you possibly justify keeping man made laws and ignoring Festvals that God commanded us to keep? Does man know better than God?

Dave
 
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geezerbob:
I have really enjoyed reading this thread. One thing is very obvious: Luke is not confused - his mind is already made up. The rest of you are just trying to confuse him with facts.
I am not confused by what the bible says, I am confused as to how anyone who calls themselfs a christian could possibly ignore the bible?

Which “facts” are they confusing me with. All i’ve seen so far is misinterpretation and twisting of scripture, and mans traditons.

Dave
 
Luke 4:4:
As far as peter being the first Pope. How bout you show me where it says this in the bible. Where does it say that the Pope has the powers of God. Why do people refer to the Pope as the Holy Father. The Holy Father is God.
Dave, the Pope himself is NOT God as ANY Catholic will tell you. It is not the man that is Pope which is Holy… it is the office of the papacy which was established by Christ which is Holy. As for ‘Father’, we call him ‘father’ just as we would any priest. As for why Catholics and Orthodox call priests ‘father’, see the Biblical basis: catholic.com/library/call_no_man_father.asp

By the way, the Christian Holidays also fall on/near Jewish holidays. Does this mean the Jewish holidays are ‘pagan’, too?

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Can’t argue with that 😉
 
Luke 4:4:
You truley think that these holidays just “happen” to be on the same days as the pagen festivals. The origins of these festivals are the pagen festvals. Do a little reseach. Its out there for everyone to find. Unless you just want to go on believing your church is right about everything. God tells us not to add to or take away from his word. We are not to add our own customs and traditions and we are not to ignore his Holyday Festivals. How could that be any clearer.
The problem with keeping these holidays is that they are not in the bible. How could you possibly justify keeping man made laws and ignoring Festvals that God commanded us to keep? Does man know better than God?

Dave
Easter falls on a Pagan festival? All this time, I thought we got Easter from the Jewish Passover. Thanks for correcting me.

NotWorthy
 
Semper Fi:
Dave, the Pope himself is NOT God as ANY Catholic will tell you. It is not the man that is Pope which is Holy… it is the office of the papacy which was established by Christ which is Holy. As for ‘Father’, we call him ‘father’ just as we would any priest. As for why Catholics and Orthodox call priests ‘father’, see the Biblical basis: catholic.com/library/call_no_man_father.asp

By the way, the Christian Holidays also fall on/near Jewish holidays. Does this mean the Jewish holidays are ‘pagan’, too?

2 Thessalonians 2:15

Can’t argue with that 😉
Did you even bother to read the links I posted. Obviously not or you would have read these things.

Christmas
*Since the celebration of Christmas has come to the world from the Roman Catholic Church, and has no authority but that of the Roman Catholic Church, let us examine the Catholic Encyclopedia, 1911 edition, published by that church. Under the heading “Christmas,” you will find:

“Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church . . . the first evidence of the feast is from Egypt.” “Pagan customs centering around the January calends gravitated to Christmas.”

And in the same encyclopedia, under the heading “Natal Day,” we find that the early Catholic father, Origen, acknowledged this truth: “. . . In the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners [like Pharaoh and Herod] who make great rejoicings over the day in which they were born into this world” (emphasis ours).

Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1946 edition, has this: “Christmas (i.e., the Mass of Christ). . . . Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the church. . . .” It was not instituted by Christ or the apostles, or by Bible authority. It was picked up afterward from paganism.

The Encyclopedia Americana, 1944 edition, says: “Christmas. . . . It was, according to many authorities, not celebrated in the first centuries of the Christian church, as the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of remarkable persons rather than their birth. . . .” (The “Communion,” which is instituted by New Testament Bible authority, is a memorial of the death of Christ.) “. . . A feast was established in memory of this event [Christ’s birth] in the fourth century. In the fifth century the Western Church ordered it to be celebrated forever on the day of the old Roman feast of the birth of Sol, as no certain knowledge of the day of Christ’s birth existed.”*
bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.showResource/CT/HWA/k/464

Easter
*What is the meaning of the name “Easter”? You have been led to suppose the word means “resurrection of Christ.” For 1600 years the Western world has been taught that Christ rose from the dead on Sunday morning. But that is merely one of the fables the Apostle Paul warned readers of the New Testament to expect. The resurrection did not occur on Sunday!

The name “Easter,” which is merely the slightly changed English spelling of the name of the ancient Assyrian and Babylonian goddess Ishtar, comes to us from old Teutonic mythology where it is known as Ostern. The Phoenician name of this goddess was Astarte, consort of Baal, the sun god, whose worship is denounced by the Almighty in the Bible as the most abominable of all pagan idolatry.

Look up the word “Easter” in Webster’s dictionary. You will find it clearly reveals the pagan origin of the name.

In the large five-volume Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, only six brief lines are given to the name “Easter,” because it occurs only once in the Bible—and that only in the Authorized King James translation. Says Hastings: “Easter, used in Authorized Version as the translation of ‘Pascha’ in Acts 12:4, ‘Intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.’ Revised Standard Version has substituted correctly ‘the Passover.’”*
bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.showResource/CT/HWA/k/465
 
Luke 4:4
Wow, this is un uphill battle you cant win. That idea that people are too dumb all these year to totally misunderstand the 3 period of time that Jesus was dead is childish. Do you think that that question has never been pondered and understood properly?
Here is a recent article on that damnable lie of Wednesday cruified.
If Acts 10:9-16 is the only thing you can come up with for eating unclean foods than why even bother. God was testing Peter. If they were allowed to eat the unclean foods why was Peter hesitant to do it. God does not contradict himself. Why would he command something to be done if he was just going to do away with that commandment later. God tells us he is no the author of conusion. This would be causing confusion within his teachings.
Totally unfounded. God was not testing peter, it was a new moment in history, notice at the words of Peter the Gentiles were first accepted. Peter was only hesitant in the fact that this was so new to him that it TOOK SOME TIME for him to digest it all.
 
Semper Fi:
2 Thessalonians 2:15
I can not argue with this verse only with your interpretation of it. This verse says that we should hold fast to the traditions taught to us by Gods word and by the teachings of the Apostles. I’m not sure how this backs up your position. Where did the apostles ever teach us to keep easter or christmas?

Dave
 
Luke 4:4-
What jesus commanded us to do was keep the passover. Not keep Mass. Who cares if you are doing these things if they are not being done on the correct day. God gave us a time for these things to be done. He didn’t say to just do them whenever we feel like it.
Note in 1Cor11:
18 For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 20 When you meet together, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat. 21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal, and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in?
Is this the passover what Paul is teaching GENTILES? First of all it is called “church” not synagogue which they would be forbidden to enter and do that stuff. Next in v20 it makes a SPECIAL time OUTSIDE of normal eating.
I agree with you 100% on the mk16 part. Saying “I beleive in God” means absolutely nothing if you don’t follow his laws. If someone beleives on God then they must also believe that the bible is his word. God can not lie or make a mistake therefor his commands in the bible are clearly the way he wants us to live.
Im glad you agree with mk16, that means we can skip the faith alone and once saved always saved talk. But your next statment holds no “biblical proof”. Jesus never said you had to believe in “the Bible”.
This does sound like mass but owhere does God tell us to keep it as mass. It clearly says that he proceeded with the passover. NOt that he proceeded with mass.
See my quote above!
 
Luke 4:4:
You truley think that these holidays just “happen” to be on the same days as the pagen festivals. The origins of these festivals are the pagen festvals. Do a little reseach.
I don’t care that Christmas is celebrated at the same time of year as what used to be Yule - I don’t care that there are customs attached to Christmas that have been used by other cultures. Their use and intent by Christians is all that concerns me.

I’ve been indifferent about Christmas for many years, but now that I am Christian, I will never let another “Merry Christmas” pass without remembering that Christ was born and Christ died and Christ rose again to save sinners, like me.

:bowdown: **Thank you Lord Jesus Christ! **

Unfortunately for us, nobody wrote down the dates and times for Jesus’ birth, death and resurrection. So, your proposal is what? That we just skip those days? The most impact-filled days in the known history of the world?

Pretend that those days didn’t bring the life-giving changes that they gave to all of humanity? Surely that’s not what you intend.
Its out there for everyone to find. Unless you just want to go on believing your church is right about everything.
:eek: Whoaaaa! Evangelizing the original Christians. That takes some serious… ummmm… nerve… or something.

Elizabeth
 
Catholic Dude:
Im glad you agree with mk16, that means we can skip the faith alone and once saved always saved talk. But your next statment holds no “biblical proof”. Jesus never said you had to believe in “the Bible”.
QUOTE]

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The Bible is the word of God. If we bleieve in him then we must also believe his word. You connot truley have the first without the later.

Dave
 
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ElizabethJoy:
Pretend that those days didn’t bring the life-giving changes that they gave to all of humanity? Surely that’s not what you intend.
This is definetaly not what I intend. God gave us the festivals that he wanted us to follow. Passover, The days of unleavend bread, pentacost, the feast of trumpets, the feast of atonement, the feast of booths or tabernacles and the last great day. These feasts are symbols of God great plan for Humanity. He doesn’t need us to make new feasts and decide what is and isn’t important. Nowhere in the bible are we comanded to celebrate a persons birth, not even Jesus birth. We are though commanded to celebrate his crucifixion, Passover.
bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.showResource/CT/HWA/k/462

Dave
 
Luke 4:4:
I can not argue with this verse only with your interpretation of it. This verse says that we should hold fast to the traditions taught to us by Gods word and by the teachings of the Apostles. I’m not sure how this backs up your position. Where did the apostles ever teach us to keep easter or christmas?

Dave
Dave, please tell me exactly what ‘my interpretation of it’ is. Thanks. 1 more question. Why’d you post this in ‘Non-Catholic Religions’, since you’re discussing the Catholic faith?
 
Catholic Dude:
Luke 4:4-

Note in 1Cor11:
18 For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 20 When you meet together, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat. 21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal, and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in?
Is this the passover what Paul is teaching GENTILES? First of all it is called “church” not synagogue which they would be forbidden to enter and do that stuff. Next in v20 it makes a SPECIAL time OUTSIDE of normal eating.

Im glad you agree with mk16, that means we can skip the faith alone and once saved always saved talk. But your next statment holds no “biblical proof”. Jesus never said you had to believe in “the Bible”.

See my quote above!
bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.showResource/CT/HWA/k/462
 
Semper Fi:
Dave, please tell me exactly what ‘my interpretation of it’ is. Thanks. 1 more question. Why’d you post this in ‘Non-Catholic Religions’, since you’re discussing the Catholic faith?
I assumed your interpretation was that we should follow both GOds laws and mans tradition. I appologize if I was incorrect.

I started this dicussion about all chritian churches of the world. None of todays mainstream churches keep Gods festivals, keep the sabbath day as it is commanded and instead keep manmade days and traditions and fail to keep countless other Laws. Not just catholic but Protestant, JW, etc.
 
Luke 4:4:
Catholic Dude:
Im glad you agree with mk16, that means we can skip the faith alone and once saved always saved talk. But your next statment holds no “biblical proof”. Jesus never
said you had to believe in “the Bible”.

Matthew 4:4
Luke 4:4
Revelation 22:18
Revelation 22:14
All those citations and “The Bible” is not mentioned even once.

Can you find where in the Bible Jesus told his disciples to put together a Bible? Where Christ told his disciples to even write His teachings down? Where Christ, Himself, wrote anything that survives to this day?

Can you find where in the Bible God told Christians where the Bible would fall out of the sky, leather-bound and gilt-edged, with KJV on the cover? Okay, okay… just a little levity, there. 😉
The Bible is the word of God. If we bleieve in him then we must also believe his word. You connot truley have the first without the later.
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Incarnate, He didn’t write a single thing that we know of except something in the dirt.

Jesus didn’t write a book. He founded a church. That church is still about His work.

People believed in Jesus Christ and received the Sacraments that Jesus taught His original disciples for nearly four centuries before a Bible even existed.

The Bible is a precious part of Catholic Tradition, but it can only be interpreted correctly in the full light of the rest of the deposit of faith.

Elizabeth
 
Luke 4:4:
The Bible is the word of God. If we bleieve in him then we must also believe his word. You connot truley have the first without the later.

Dave
There is nothing in the Bible that tells you what books belong in it. As we say around here, there is no divine index. By accepting the 73 books of the Bible and especially the 27 NT books you are accepting Tradition.

Just because a book says divine or God or Jesus or anything else doesnt make it Scripture. Those gospel passages you cited were referencing the first five books, not all 73 books.
I agree that all Scripture is inspired, but to say that we must accept the 73 book Bible when Jesus never said to do that, in fact in the beginning nobody had a NT to appeal to in case of disputes or questions.
 
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ElizabethJoy:
All those citations and “The Bible” is not mentioned even once.

Can you find where in the Bible Jesus told his disciples to put together a Bible? Where Christ told his disciples to even write His teachings down? Where Christ, Himself, wrote anything that survives to this day?

Can you find where in the Bible God told Christians where the Bible would fall out of the sky, leather-bound and gilt-edged, with KJV on the cover? Okay, okay… just a little levity, there. 😉

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Incarnate, He didn’t write a single thing that we know of except something in the dirt.

Jesus didn’t write a book. He founded a church. That church is still about His work.

People believed in Jesus Christ and received the Sacraments that Jesus taught His original disciples for nearly four centuries before a Bible even existed.

The Bible is a precious part of Catholic Tradition, but it can only be interpreted correctly in the full light of the rest of the deposit of faith.

Elizabeth
So your saying that the BIble isn’t the Word of God. God didn’t inspire the Bible. If God didn’t write the book then this means there is no basis for any christian religion. Yours or mine.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

You can read those scriptures and truthfuly tell me that God is not talking about the Bible? Interesting.

Dave
 
The bible came into being by CATHOLIC ORAL APOSTOLIC TRADITION.
Put yourself in the position of the catholic partiarchs in the early church, who decided to bound all the scriptures in one book. WOULD YOU AHVE PICKED THE SAME BOOKS AS THEY DID? what are the pre-requisites for a gospel or epistle to be divinely inspired? They had multitudes of writings to choose from, and they chose 72 (catholics, is that right? correct me if i’m wrong…).
You wouldn’t have picked those books, i can tell you now. So, if you don’t even know for sure which books are divinely inspired, who are you to interpret them? that is why we trust the catholic chrch to interpret the bible: because they know how. They have to right. we do not.
Do you seriously think that your 19 years of interpreting scripture are better than nearly 2000 years worth?
 
I thought you sounded a lot like Garner Ted Armstrong!

You had that Jehovah’s Witness/Seventh Day Adventist mix going - I knew I’d heard it before, just couldn’t place exactly where.

About Bibletools.org:
This site is wholly owned and operated by Church of the Great God, Inc., a non-profit organization. The church, based in the Charlotte, North Carolina, area, is a Sabbath-keeping, non-Trinitarian organization of individuals in the United States, Canada, France, the Netherlands, southern Africa, Australia, Trinidad, the Philippines, and various other locations around the world. In addition to BibleTools.org, the church also supports CGG.org, TheBerean.org, and Sabbath.org, as well as publishing Forerunner magazine, various booklets on Christian subjects, and audio sermon tapes.
So, if you go to cgg.org, you get Church of the Great God history. This church is just one of the latest incarnations of Worldwide Church Of God - this one split off in 1992.

Elizabeth
 
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