Confused

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But will I have to contact him? I have no idea where he even lives. I haven’t had any contact with him in over 12 years and I’ve moved out of state. He has a super common name (think Dave Jones) and I have no idea how to find him and although I might be able to track down one of his distant relatives they would not want to help me in the least since they thought I was just a crazy teenager (I was) and besides, I wouldn’t want any contact with him either because he was a big time drinker, low life sort of guy and I can’t help but think he didn’t improve with age as he came from a long line of big time drinker, low life types. Does this mean that he’d know where I live? Me and my children? I can’t have that at all. Can the annulment happen without him knowing where I live? I have the divorce papers etc. but I’m serious when I say that contacting him would not be in anybody’s best interest. Somebody advise please! My RCIA class starts tomorrow… I never in a million years thought this would be an issue in the least !!
 
From "Do I need an Annulment?"
By Jacqueline Rapp, JD, JCL and Pete Vere, JCL
osv.com/whatthechurchteaches/Annulments/envoyarticle.asp
When does a marriage come into being?
Marriage comes into being through lawfully manifested consent - that is, there must be a taking of the other as spouse in a way recognizable to the community. When two people give themselves to one another in order to create a partnership of life and love (marriage), and they do so in a manner recognized by the community, they marry. For two unbaptized people, this can be in front of a justice of the peace in the middle of a field.

… If either you or your intended attempted a previous marriage, be sure to tell your priest. Before you attempt another marriage, the Church must address the previous marriage in some form or another, either by a documentary case, a privilege case, or a formal annulment process.
Please read through the entire article, as it is packed with very good information, provided by canon lawyers. Then, contact your priest.

Good luck and God bless.
 
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otm:
Since he is not Catholic, he can’t go to confession.

Going to purgatory certainly should not be viewed as a bad thing!

Worse is… :cool:
Sorry missed that fact that he was not Catholic. How I am not sure it was obvious. Sorry:o
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Do you believe you have grounds for an annulment for both you and your spouse? I hope you do, cuz if you don’t then it will be difficult to convince the Church. If you do, then I presume that it is your opinion that you were not in fact married in the eyes of God prior to your marriage with your current spouse. If this is what you believe, then how is your marriage with your current spouse a mortal sin?
A mortal sin requires full consciousness of the gravity of your sin, as well as full participation of your will. I suggest that you don’t truly have full consciousness that what you are doing with your current wife is adultery. If you do, you have greater problems then just awaiting an annulment. 😉
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thestickman:
We’ve been together for 8 years, married very happily for almost 7. We were drawn to the Church this year and while we accept the fact we will not be permitted to be Confirmed this Easter we are happy that our older teenager children will be.
justdave, mortal sin requires full knowledge of the sinfulness of the matter, full consent and grave matter. If they have just been drawn to the Church in this last year then those other 7 years prior they have been unknowledgeable of what the Church says on that. Thus no mortal sin. For this last year their ignorance of that has been taken away. However. They have children and it would complicate things to split a household so that they would not be living together. I agree with you that there isn’t any mortal sin going on but not sure if one can prove that by this line. *If this is what you believe, then how is your marriage with your current spouse a mortal sin? *

Stickman - My opinion would be that God knows our hearts and He knows whether you and your wife really want to get your marrige blessed in the Church. If this is truely your intention I see no worry for you and your wife. But you and her should really be living like the other posts have said, like brother and sister for awhile. I would think splitting up for a time is foolish - which doesn’t seem to be an issue since you two have kids, they are your responsibility as well.

Also, this is only my thought on the matter. Check more into things like the Catechism and other documents - or maybe a good priest to find out more about sin, or maybe there is someone out there who will put up a really cool post with better understandable advice.

Good luck & God bless

jegow
 
I’m sorry Carol Marie, I took some time out for dinner, but I thought of you through-out and even shared with Charlotte that you and I were conversing and I wanted to get back to you.

I don’t know the details of whether he’ll know where you are. I also didn’t want any contact with my ex-husband, although I did the leg work of finding him for the tribunal (for me it was easy, he was still living in the home we were in years earlier). I don’t know what, if anything they told him about me.

I did occationally get hang-up calls which weirded me out, wondering if it was him. We don’t have caller-id, so I still don’t know. For me, it was just a matter of feeling weird, not a safety issue. In your situation, I feel certain that the church understands the need for Prudence, so I would certainly pray for Faith, Wisdom, and Guidance from the Holy Spirit. Then approach your parish priest and request a private meeting (book at least an hour) and explain to him what you have learned here.

I will add you to my prayers.

And, pray to Mary for her assistance at this confusing time. Know that there are many Catholics who simply refrain from receiving the Eucharist while they are in this state, believing that as long as they do not Receive Christ while in Sin, they are OK. Personally, I believe that we are in a serious spiritual battle with Satan here, and we need to be in as much a State of Grace as is possible if we want to assist the Body of Christ.

May the Peace of the Lord be with you,

CARose
 
carol marie:
Does this mean that he’d know where I live? Me and my children? I can’t have that at all. Can the annulment happen without him knowing where I live?

My RCIA class starts tomorrow… I never in a million years thought this would be an issue in the least !!
Really, do talk to them about this ASAP, there may be different ways of going about it. Don’t freak out though - someone at RCIA should be able to help.

jegow
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Do you believe you have grounds for an annulment … If you do, then I presume that it is your opinion that you were not in fact married in the eyes of God prior to your marriage with your current spouse. If this is what you believe, then how is your marriage with your current spouse a mortal sin?

You are awaiting a judgment of the Church. If in your conscious you know what that judgment ought to be (while the Church is still pondering the evidence of your case), then your sin is not mortal.
😉
Itsjustdave1988 - your reasoning, while interesting, does not take into account the Full Truth of the situation, as it’s been presented here.

At this point, they have learned of the teaching of the Church with regards to marriage. Furthermore, they have been shown that a marriage by even one Catholic (once baptised Catholic, the Church forever claims her own, believe me, this I know) to a non-Catholic, regardless of whether or not the spouse ever intends to become Catholic, must be a Sacramental Marriage, performed by the Church, for it to be valid in the eyes of the Church.

Their marriage cannot be recognized by the Church until the potential impediment to their marriage can be corrected (the annulments are necessary before the Marriage can be blessed by the Church).

Until their marriage is blessed (even if they know that the annulments will go through, therefore there is no actual impediment, as there were no actual previous marriages) out of obedience to the Authority of God’s Church on earth, the Bride of Christ, they are obligated to maintain a Chaste relationship for the time being if they desire to be in a State of Grace.

Am I suggesting anything regarding the ultimate repose of their souls if they didn’t do so? ABSOLUTELY NOT. What we choose to do when faced with these decisions is between us, the immediate parties involved, our confessor &/or spiritual advisor and God. And God is the final judge in these matters. In the meantime, make use of the sacrament of confession as soon as the Priest allows it and live as you would understand you are meant to live.

I came to the conclusion that while I knew that my marriage was absolutely real in the eyes of God (previous marriage not valid, therefore no impediment, both wanted lifelong marriage, kids, etc), as a faithful person, recognizing that the Catholic Church held authority on earth for Christ and therefore disobedience to the church was the equivalent of being disobedient to God himself.

I assure you, I have reaped a harvest of Grace for my willingness to accept such a difficult truth in todays world.

CARose
 
carol marie:
But will I have to contact him? I have no idea where he even lives. I haven’t had any contact with him in over 12 years and I’ve moved out of state. He has a super common name (think Dave Jones) and I have no idea how to find him and although I might be able to track down one of his distant relatives they would not want to help me in the least since they thought I was just a crazy teenager (I was) and besides, I wouldn’t want any contact with him either because he was a big time drinker, low life sort of guy and I can’t help but think he didn’t improve with age as he came from a long line of big time drinker, low life types. Does this mean that he’d know where I live? Me and my children? I can’t have that at all. Can the annulment happen without him knowing where I live? I have the divorce papers etc. but I’m serious when I say that contacting him would not be in anybody’s best interest. Somebody advise please! My RCIA class starts tomorrow… I never in a million years thought this would be an issue in the least !!
I don’t know if you need an actual annulment. There is a release form that comes from the diocese that indicates whether or not a marriage is viewed as valid in the Church. However, you need to talk to your priest as soon as possible to get the ball rolling. It is my experience that you won’t have to contact him (the former husband).
 
My first marriage was by a Justice of the Peace to a non Christian man. I was a Catholic convert who had temporarily left the church. When I wanted to marry my current husband, the priest said “was your marriage ever blessed by a priest?” I said “no”, he said that all I needed was a paperwork annulment and he could take care of it easily. He left the priesthood shortly after our wedding. I have joked before that I hoped our marriage was actually done properly. You guys make me worry that it was not!!!
 
out of obedience to the Authority of God’s Church on earth, the Bride of Christ, they are obligated to maintain a Chaste relationship for the time being if they desire to be in a State of Grace.
That would certianly be a meritorious act on their part. By I don’t believe it is required by the Church, because the Church knows that it’s decree is not infallible.

Instead, I believe one must EITHER live as brother and sister OR they cannot participate in the Sacraments until the annulment is final. That’s how it is in my diocese (Colorado Springs) and our Archdiocese of Denver, both of which have very conservative bishops (Sheridan and Chaput, respectively), so I don’t suppose they are merely letting things slide.

If in the eyes of God, their previous marriages were in fact not valid, then the Church is simply not aware of the facts yet, then this is similar to a case of unjust excommunication. They must obey the Church in refraining from receiving the Sacraments until the Church renders its judgement or they WILL be committing mortal sin. Even if the Church makes an unjust ruling in the annulment (annulments are not infallible), then they must continue to refrain from the Sacraments or they WILL be committing mortal sin. However, no Church decree ever affects their state of grace.

Living as married man and woman is not a sin if the prior marriage was not in fact valid in the eyes of God. The results of an annulment will not change the facts of the case. Annulments are not “Church approved divorces”, but instead state with moral certitute (yet not infallibly) that the prior marriage was only appearantly valid, but not valid in the eyes of the Church. The Church may err in an annulment decree and so it’s judgement if fallible and may not be the judgement of God.

Perhaps I’m wrong. If so, I’d like to see magisterial support against my position so that I might provide it to Bishop Sheridan.
 
must be a Sacramental Marriage, performed by the Church, for it to be valid in the eyes of the Church.

Their marriage cannot be recognized by the Church until the potential impediment to their marriage can be corrected (the annulments are necessary before the Marriage can be blessed by the Church).
True. But juridic recognition by the Church (eyes of the Church) does not say anything about their state of grace (eyes of God). It only prevents them from licitly receiving of the Sacraments. Now, if they were to disregard canon law and receive of the Sacraments anyway, they would be committing grave sin, objectively speaking, regardless of the facts of their case. Yet, the Church has never maintained that their annulments or excommunications for that matter, are infallible, and therefore, they do not decree what is infallibly true in the eyes of God.
 
CCC 1650 "… Church maintains that a new union cannot be recognized as valid, if the first marriage was. If the divorced are remarried civilly, they find themselves in a situation that objectively contravenes God’s law. Consequently,** they cannot receive Eucharistic communion as long as this situation persists.** For the same reason, they cannot exercise certain ecclesial responsibilities. Reconciliation through the sacrament of Penance can be granted only to those who have repented for having violated the sign of the covenant and of fidelity to Christ, and who are committed to living in complete continence."

As I understand it, the brother-sister relationship requirement is for those who desire the Sacraments prior to the completion of the annulment investigation or for those whose annulments were not granted. The alternative is to refrain from the Sacraments until the annulment judgment. It is either/or, not both.
 
Pope John PaulII, FAMILIARIS CONSORTIO:
"Pastors must know that, for the sake of truth, they are obliged to exercise careful discernment of situations. There is in fact a difference between those who have sincerely tried to save their first marriage and have been unjustly abandoned, and those who through their own grave fault have destroyed a canonically valid marriage. Finally, there are those who have entered into a second union for the sake of the children’s upbringing, and who are sometimes subjectively certain in conscience that their previous and irreparably destroyed marriage had never been valid.

However, the Church reaffirms her practice, which is based upon Sacred Scripture, of not admitting to Eucharistic Communion divorced persons who have remarried. …

Reconciliation in the sacrament of Penance which would open the way to the Eucharist, can only be granted to those who, repenting of having broken the sign of the Covenant and of fidelity to Christ, are sincerely ready to undertake a way of life that is no longer in contradiction to the indissolubility of marriage. This means, in practice, that when, for serious reasons, such as for example the children’s upbringing, a man and a woman cannot satisfy the obligation to separate, they “take on themselves the duty to live in complete continence, that is, by abstinence from the acts proper to married couples.”(180) …
 
Sorry thestickman to monopolize your post but I have to give an update since I was so freaked out yesterday by the possiblity of having to contact my former wacko ex-husband and get an annulment. I talked to a friend and she suggested I just keep quiet about that marriage and nobody would know. Only I couldn’t do it… I knew God would know and He’s brought me this far (from my Fundamentalist beliefs to my first RCIA class) and if I lied about that 1st marriage it would be like saying, “I don’t trust you that you can work this out God.” So I fessed up to the Priest and JUMP FOR JOY he said it wouldn’t be a problem. He said since my ex wasn’t even baptized, we weren’t married in a church & it was when I was a stupid (my words) teenager, it would just be a matter of filling out a form or two and I would be free & clear. No one would contact him and it would be over & done. Praise the Lord! So all is well and I’m no longer freaked out. Now if you’ll excuse me I want to go make myself a sandwich… I haven’t been able to eat since last night. Peace & blessing to all. CM
P.S. thestickman, I hope & pray your situation works out as well. Don’t give up!!! 🙂
 
You’ve not monopolized anything, carol.

A bit of an update on things. After Mass this morning I made a point of asking our parish priest for a meeting ASAP. I’m concerned about the state of our souls. If we are, in reality living in sin then I need to know what our options are to change that till we see if our annulments are granted or not. I mean we could get clobbered by a semi on our way to Mass next Sunday. Much as I find the idea of a happily married couple being told they have to stop sharing our love sexually repugnant, I find the notion of burning in hell to be worse. While we are just in our mid-40’s, we ain’t bulletproof.

Best of luck with your situation, Carol.
 
Carol Marie,

If I could reach across the net and give you a Yahoo hug, I would. I am so happy that you listened to your conscience and not your misguided friend! Aren’t you happy to know that this is a simple situation to resolve!

Congatulations!

And Stickman,

I am so glad that you have concern for the status of your immortal soul and are willing to forego the pleasures of the world while you await the completion of that which is necessary to conform to the requirements for your marriage to be blessed by the church. Congratulations on your willingness to take the road less traveled as you work you way to sanctification. Know that you will be blessed for your willingness to be obedient to the Bride of Christ.

CARose
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Do you believe you have grounds for an annulment for both you and your spouse? I hope you do, cuz if you don’t then it will be difficult to convince the Church. If you do, then I presume that it is your opinion that you were not in fact married in the eyes of God prior to your marriage with your current spouse. If this is what you believe, then how is your marriage with your current spouse a mortal sin?
All marriages are held as VALID until shown otherwise. Live as brother and sister (hard but not impossible). I know a couple: she was converting to the faith and he was remaining Baptist,. H sought the nevessary anullments and lived with her as brother and sister for two years through the process. What a stand up guy!!
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itsjustdave1988:
You are awaiting a judgment of the Church. If in your conscious you know what that judgment ought to be (while the Church is still pondering the evidence of your case), then your sin is not mortal.
No, you must wait for the judgement of the Church. We don’t make our own declaration to allow us to sin.
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itsjustdave1988:
A mortal sin requires full consciousness of the gravity of your sin, as well as full participation of your will. I suggest that you don’t truly have full consciousness that what you are doing with your current wife is adultery. If you do, you have greater problems then just awaiting an annulment. 😉
I hope you are aware of the gravity of your sin (though hopefully, with sufficent reason, you may be admitted into full union of the fullness of faith.

Under the Mercy,

Matthew
 
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