Confused

[itsjustdave1988]

No, you must wait for the judgement of the Church.

Before participating in the Sacraments, yes. Before entering into a new marriage, yes. But after already having entered into a new marriage, when a couple returns to the Church, does the Church oblige a couple to separate or live together continently (as brother and sister) prior to the annulment? I don’t believe so. Show me the magisterial texts which support this. From Pope John Paul II’s Familiaris Consortio, it seems he directs a pastoral approach that takes each person’s situation into consideration.

All that I have found supports that if one is already remarried, they are not to participate in the Sacraments until the annulment findings are complete and the new marriage is canonically approved. They *must *live continently prior to the annulment **in order to participate in the Sacraments. **This says nothing of the state of grace of the married couple awaiting annulment who do not live continently but refrain from the Sacraments until the annulment process is complete.

Internal forum does not permit one to disobey canon law and participate in the Sacraments. However, the Church has not ruled that their current marriage is invalid or valid. The first marriage will be presumed to be valid because the facts of the case are not yet known by the Church tribunal. Objectively speaking, the presumption of validity may or may not be correct. It is a juridical procedure to presume validity, not a ruling or declaration of validity that may or may not be overturned after the annulment process is complete.

So, the couple may be “**subjectively certain in conscience that their previous and irreparably destroyed marriage had never been valid.” **(Pope John Paul II, Familiaris Consortio). In such cases, if the married couple continues to live in what they believe to be their first valid marriage in the eyes of God, then do they commit mortal sin?

In the eyes of God, if the couple’s subjective judgement is objectively true, they commit no sin at all. If their subjective judgement is objectively false in the eyes of God, they commit sin. But do they commit *mortal *sin? That depends. What is required for a sin to be mortal? According to the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X: (1) Grave matter, (2) Full advertence, (3) Perfect consent of the will. Was is grave matter. Yes. Was there full advertence. Perhaps not. St. Pius X states that “Full advertence in sinning is had when we know perfectly well that we are doing a serious evil.” **It seems to me that full advertence is necessarily lacking when the couple is subjectively certain in conscience that their previous and irreparably destroyed marriage had never been valid.

That is why I believe the Deacon’s response in Post #1 is correct and is not contradictory to Catholic teaching.

Is there magisterial texts that teach to the contrary? If so, please let me know. I might very well be wrong. I will always submit to my pastor, who submits to my Bishop, who submits to my Pope, who submits to my God. I find no evidence that the Deacon in post #1 contradicted Catholic teaching (although a “stay in Purgatory” is speculative, but quite likely for any of us).

 

[thestickman]

itsjustdave1988:

Before participating in the Sacraments, yes. Before entering into a new marriage, yes. But after already having entered into a new marriage, when a couple returns to the Church, does the Church oblige a couple to separate or live together continently (as brother and sister) prior to the annulment? I don’t believe so. Show me the magisterial texts which support this. From Pope John Paul II’s Familiaris Consortio, it seems he directs a pastoral approach that takes each person’s situation into consideration.

All that I have found supports that if one is already remarried, they are not to participate in the Sacraments until the annulment findings are complete and the new marriage is canonically approved. They must live continently prior to the annulment in order to participate in the Sacraments. This says nothing of the state of grace of the married couple awaiting annulment who do not live continently but refrain from the Sacraments until the annulment process is complete.

Internal forum does not permit one to disobey canon law and participate in the Sacraments. However, the Church has not ruled that their current marriage is invalid or valid. The first marriage will be presumed to be valid because the facts of the case are not yet known by the Church tribunal. Objectively speaking, the presumption of validity may or may not be correct. It is a juridical procedure to presume validity, not a ruling or declaration of validity that may or may not be overturned after the annulment process is complete.

So, the couple may be “**subjectively certain in conscience that their previous and irreparably destroyed marriage had never been valid.” **(Pope John Paul II, Familiaris Consortio). In such cases, if the married couple continues to live in what they believe to be their first valid marriage in the eyes of God, then do they commit mortal sin?

In the eyes of God, if the couple’s subjective judgement is objectively true, they commit no sin at all. If their subjective judgement is objectively false in the eyes of God, they commit sin. But do they commit mortal sin? That depends. What is required for a sin to be mortal? According to the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X: (1) Grave matter, (2) Full advertence, (3) Perfect consent of the will. Was is grave matter. Yes. Was there full advertence. Perhaps not. St. Pius X states that “Full advertence in sinning is had when we know perfectly well that we are doing a serious evil.” **It seems to me that full advertence is *necessarily lacking ***when the couple is subjectively certain in conscience that their previous and irreparably destroyed marriage had never been valid.

That is why I believe the Deacon’s response in Post #1 is correct and is not contradictory to Catholic teaching.

Is there magisterial texts that teach to the contrary? If so, please let me know. I might very well be wrong. I will always submit to my pastor, who submits to my Bishop, who submits to my Pope, who submits to my God. I find no evidence from any of the above, however, that the Deacon in post #1 contradicted Catholic teaching (although a “stay in Purgatory” is speculative, but quite likely for any of us).

Thanks for the indepth post, Dave. I have a meeting (finally) with our parish priest Thursday morning at 9am. I hope to get the answers to these questions and others at that time.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

thestickman,

Good luck with your meeting.

My brother is in the same situation, having left the Catholic Church, married, divorced, remarried, then decided to come home again to the Church. He too was not told to live continently, but only to refrain from receiving the Sacraments.

Here’s some additional information that may be of use to you before your meeting with the priest…

Some Catholics, priests included, assert that there exists an “internal forum solution” that allows remarried Catholics to receive of the Sacraments regardless of an external forum decree (tribunal judgement). There is. But there are conditions, and many do not include the conditions when discussing the internal forum solution.

The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s document of April 11, 1973 was addressed to Diocesan Bishops censuring the admittance of invalidly married persons to the sacraments. The final paragraph reads:

“With regard to admission to the sacraments, the local ordinaries will also please, on the one hand, stress the observance of the current discipline of the church while, on the other hand, take care that pastors of souls follow up with particular solicitude those who are living in an irregular union and, in addition to other correct means, use the approved practice of the Church in the internal forum.”

On March 21, 1975, the same Sacred Congregation explained the phrase “the approved practice of the Church in the internal forum” in the following way:

“The couples may be allowed to receive the sacraments on two conditions, that they try to live according to the demands of Christian moral principles and that they receive the sacraments in churches in which they are not known so that they will not create any scandal.”

I’m still looking for the full documents to verify the context, however, I believe the “approved practice of the Church in the internal forum” pertains to those who live continently and receive the Sacraments in such a way that public scandal is removed. The condition for being allowed to receive the Sacraments described as living “according to the demand of Christian moral principles” includes living continently, I believe.

to be continued…

 

[itsjustdave1988]

continued …

This interpretation seems corraborated by the following:
Declaration on Divorced and Remarried Persons
Pontifical Council for Legistlative Texts
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CILTCOMM.HTM

Also, from an EWTN Q&A forum:
ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=359077&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=internal+forum&pgnu=1&groupnum=0

A number of priests, in error, attempt to “solve” problems stemming from irregular marriages by providing an “internal forum solution.” In essence the priest, sometimes in the confessional, gives “permission” for a Catholic in an invalid marriage to remain in that relationship, continue conjugal relations, and share in the sacramental life of the Church. The Church has repeatedly stated that such “solutions” are not permitted …

There are provisions, however, for such irregular marriages to be addressed in the internal forum, i.e. not externally or publicly. Such instances tend to be exceptional. When a couple must remain together in an irregular relationship, often for the sake of children, it may be possible for the Catholic(s) to share in the sacraments. This entails the cessation of conjugal relations - living as brother and sister - and the absence of scandal. Usually this involves the Catholic receiving the sacraments at a church where the people are not aware of the irregularity of the union and would not be scandalized. Such situations are best discussed with a wise priest who can provide the guidance and counsel which will undoubtedly be necessary as a couple embarks upon this route.

If your priest is one of the many that assert an “internal forum solution” such that you can receive of the Sacraments other than by the conditions described above, then he’s incorrect, in my view.

 

[thestickman]

FYI of sorts to share. I met with our priest this morning. He told me plainly my wife and I are living in mortal sin and the best we can do for now is to live “as chastely as possible” until the annulment process is done. He said he would provide us with some reading and devotional materials to assist us in this. He also warned me to take this change in living slowly and continue coming to Mass and attending classes as we’ve been doing. He also told me he would give wife and I a private Mass where we would be Confirmed and covalidate our marrige as soon as the annulments are granted. He seemed rather certain they would be granted, based on his experience.

Please pray for us. Peace be with you all.

 

[mercygate]

thestickman:

FYI of sorts to share. I met with our priest this morning. He also told me he would give wife and I a private Mass where we would be Confirmed and covalidate our marrige as soon as the annulments are granted. He seemed rather certain they would be granted, based on his experience.

Please pray for us. Peace be with you all.

Sometimes the hard way is the only way. May God reward you both for your patience and perseverance.

Hey! think of it as waiting for your honeymoon! This whole thing could turn out to be a brand new beginning to your marriage. Take a weekend honeymoon to someplace that has special meaning for you both.

My husband and I had a similar situation (but without the annulment problem). We celebrated our wedding (after 30 years of marriage!) quietly but with great peace and joy. We took the priest and our witnesses out to dinner and gave presents to all of them.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

thestickman,

From a Catholic perspective (cf. Heb 13:17), you are to submit to your lawfully ordained pastor so long as he is not contrary to higher authority or going beyond his authority. He is not. He is much more strict than other pastors who, in my opinion, are also not in conflict with higher authority. But, your pastor’s direction to you to “live as chastely as possible” (??) is in no way in conflict with higher authority and accordingly, a Catholic is bound to submit to it.

I’ll be praying for you.