Confusion as Spokane bishop asks priests not to join 40 Days for Life vigils

[gakroeger]

I dont know why we have to go in front of abortion clinics to make an statement. We must pray to God and not be show offs to people. That is my opinion.

Any way this is not as bad as what happened in Florida in which Someone in the Diocese called the police to Catholics pro lifers who put panphlets on the perishoners cars.

This is a mission for the leaders of the Church to do by educating Catholics and call upon Catholics who supports the evils in the world.

Spreading the Gospel is not the clergy’s responsiblity alone. Archbishop Chaput tells us we must be active in the public square and not concede this space to those who oppose Catholic teaching. Prayer is necessary however, we are also called to spread the Gospel even where it may not be welcomed. I would concede however, that we must know our faith and insure that our words are in exact confromance with the magistrium.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Spreading the Gospel is not the clergy’s responsiblity alone. Archbishop Chaput tells us we must be active in the public square and not concede this space to those who oppose Catholic teaching. Prayer is necessary however, we are also called to spread the Gospel even where it may not be welcomed. I would concede however, that we must know our faith and insure that our words are in exact confromance with the magistrium.

Bashing an inocent bishop is not a way to spread the Gospel. This is unGodly.

 

[tm30]

This blogger has obviously come down on the side opposing Father Pavone. I for one do not want to draw such hasty conclusions. Father Pavone’s work has helped compensate for the lack of homilies providing Catholic teaching on contraception and abortion to our young in many Churches in the world. I am sure that the devil is smiling at Father Pavone’s problems and the many who are ready to bring him down.

IMHO, the Church needs some other method of keeping celebrity priest at bay. Some USCCB or Vatican bishop that they report to rather than a local Bishop who has little knowledge or control over them. This may have also prevented the disgrace of another highly visible priest in Father Corapi. There is certainly the danger of them becoming too worldly with their celebrity and financial independence.

All of this criticism of graphic images of aborted babies, has me perplexed. How insignificant is pictures of aborted babies versus the actual act of abortion. As Father Pavone has often said America will not condemn abortion until it sees abortion. Too many people including Catholics are finding it too easy to look the other way when it comes to the savagery of abortion.

The problem with celebrity priests is that they are not skilled in repelling the kinds of “latchers-on” that will hijack the cause and apply their own brand of “prudence” to decision-making. Becoming belligerent against the Bishop of any diocese is at its heart demonic. The notion that Fr. Pavone needs to be “freed” paints the good bishop as some sort of hostage taker - a mortal sinner. It is calumny plain and simple, and if Father Pavone doesn’t distance and discredit those statements, he risks being painted as in concurrence.

That Fr. Pavone seems to be trying to set up a hedge and form his own order, tells me that we need to pray for humility. He has set himself up as the savior of the unborn - their last and only hope. And he is willing to do an end-run around the bishop by issuing public statements.

I don’t think anyone doubts the importance of Fr. Pavone’s ministry, but if he is becoming consumed by it, then he needs to take a time-out and entrust those who work with him to carry on the ministry for the time being. It is an extremely thin line between what Fr. Pavone is doing and what Fr. Corapi did. Obsession of any kind is not good. If he’s become obsessed with pro-life activities, the bishop is doing his pastoral duty in asking him to take leave of it and refresh his priestly orientation.

 

[gakroeger]

Bashing an inocent bishop is not a way to spread the Gospel. This is unGodly.

I was responding to your comment;

“I don’t know why we have to go in front of abortion clinics to make an statement. We must pray to God and not be show offs to people. That is my opinion.”

And, I have not bashed the Bishop, I have questioned why some bishop’s encourage and actually participate in the rosary outside of abortion mills and others have asked their priest not to. This creates a problem for many Catholics who spend many hours at abortion mills attempting to bring some visibility to this atrocity. Does this send a message that they are wrong to do this? What is their Church telling them? This is an extremely mixed message. Bishops have erred before; back during the Roe v Wade fiasco the entire CCCB challenged the Pope at that time and refused to accept his position (the Church’s position until today and always) on contraception. Would you say the lay people were wrong at that time to question their bishops?

 

[gakroeger]

The problem with celebrity priests is that they are not skilled in repelling the kinds of “latchers-on” that will hijack the cause and apply their own brand of “prudence” to decision-making. Becoming belligerent against the Bishop of any diocese is at its heart demonic. The notion that Fr. Pavone needs to be “freed” paints the good bishop as some sort of hostage taker - a mortal sinner. It is calumny plain and simple, and if Father Pavone doesn’t distance and discredit those statements, he risks being painted as in concurrence.

That Fr. Pavone seems to be trying to set up a hedge and form his own order, tells me that we need to pray for humility. He has set himself up as the savior of the unborn - their last and only hope. And he is willing to do an end-run around the bishop by issuing public statements.

I don’t think anyone doubts the importance of Fr. Pavone’s ministry, but if he is becoming consumed by it, then he needs to take a time-out and entrust those who work with him to carry on the ministry for the time being. It is an extremely thin line between what Fr. Pavone is doing and what Fr. Corapi did. Obsession of any kind is not good. If he’s become obsessed with pro-life activities, the bishop is doing his pastoral duty in asking him to take leave of it and refresh his priestly orientation.

No matter who is right and who is wrong; this is extremely bad for the Church and the pro-life movement. It certainly could have been handled in a much more confidential manner. Once these disputes get into the hands of the biased media they will play it for all it is worth. IMHO both the bishop and Father Pavone are guilty of making public statements that inflame the issue.

I disagree that there is a thin line between this issue and Father Corapi. While it is true that this issue also was played out in the media; in Father Corapi’s case he walked away from the Church, Father Pavone has (at least so far) remained obedient and is still a priest in good standing. And most evidence seems to indicate that Father Corapi sadly was guilty of at least some of the charges. Big difference.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I was responding to your comment;

“I don’t know why we have to go in front of abortion clinics to make an statement. We must pray to God and not be show offs to people. That is my opinion.”

And, I have not bashed the Bishop, I have questioned why some bishop’s encourage and actually participate in the rosary outside of abortion mills and others have asked their priest not to. This creates a problem for many Catholics who spend many hours at abortion mills attempting to bring some visibility to this atrocity. Does this send a message that they are wrong to do this? What is their Church telling them? This is an extremely mixed message. Bishops have erred before; back during the Roe v Wade fiasco the entire CCCB challenged the Pope at that time and refused to accept his position (the Church’s position until today and always) on contraception. Would you say the lay people were wrong at that time to question their bishops?

I understand some of what you are saying. This is not the case. You certainly dont expect the whole to be doing just that. do you? there are many other things that people in teh Church must do. This is not the only way to resolve this issue. In fact, apparently all this, hasnt stopped abortion.

 

[gakroeger]

I understand some of what you are saying. This is not the case. You certainly dont expect the whole to be doing just that. do you? there are many other things that people in teh Church must do. This is not the only way to resolve this issue. In fact, apparently all this, hasnt stopped abortion.

My only point was that questioning a bishop is not the same thing as disobediance or bashing. Bishops are human and subject to human mistakes. My issue is with the confusion the bishop and Father Pavone are introducing to faithful Catholics.

I have never understood the argument that because praying at abortion mills (or any other pro life activity) hasn’t stopped abortion we should therefore just accept it and quit fighting it. It sound very much like the arguments I heard from Catholics back in the last election to justify voting for a outspoken and committed proponent of abortion rights.

 

[wisdomseeker]

My only point was that questioning a bishop is not the same thing as disobediance or bashing. Bishops are human and subject to human mistakes. My issue is with the confusion the bishop and Father Pavone are introducing to faithful Catholics.

I have never understood the argument that because praying at abortion mills (or any other pro life activity) hasn’t stopped abortion we should therefore just accept it and quit fighting it. It sound very much like the arguments I heard from Catholics back in the last election to justify voting for a outspoken and committed proponent of abortion rights.

Let s just say if Catholics were following the teachings of the Church, perhaps others would follow. instead Catholics are following the bad examples instead of following the Church.

 

[gakroeger]

Let s just say if Catholics were following the teachings of the Church, perhaps others would follow. instead Catholics are following the bad examples instead of following the Church.

AMEN

 

[Joe_5859]

So…does anyone know the answer - if your individual bishop tells you to stop praying the rosary in front of Planned Parenthood, do you obey?

I would say that, since not praying the rosary in front of Planned Parenthood is not a sin, if my bishop asked me not to do this, I would obey.

But, it doesn’t seem like that’s what is going on here.

 

[Joe_5859]

On the Archdiocese of Spokane’s website, Bishop Cupich seems to say that priests can participate:
“As for the specific question of the priests’ participation in the 40 Days for Life vigils, the Bishop recognizes that a given priest in good conscience may feel the need to participate in the vigils and he should never be forced to go against a good and informed conscience. The Bishop only asked that all priests prayerfully reflect on what he has told them, commit themselves to making teaching effectively their first priority and keep in mind the irreplaceable power of the witness of their unity with each other.”

dioceseofspokane.org/news_detail.php?id=147

Thank you for posting this!

Really, this is the first piece of news on the story that is not based on hearsay. So I think we would do well to pay attention to it.

Note that Bishop Cupich implies that priests are not commanded under pain of obedience to refrain from participating in these prayerful vigils. Certainly, statements like “The Bishop only asked that all priests prayerfully reflect on what he has told them…” indicates that we are not getting the full story, but we really don’t need to know every detail of what a bishop tells his priests.

I am glad that Bishop Cupich has released this statement (likely in light of the media reports from LSN and other places). It helps clarify that he is not placing any sort of authoritative ban on these types of pro-life activities.

 

[wynnejj]

I am glad that Bishop Cupich has released this statement (likely in light of the media reports from LSN and other places). It helps clarify that he is not placing any sort of authoritative ban on these types of pro-life activities.

Yet, if he hadn’t made the clarification, it would have the effect of an authoritative ban on these types of pro-life activities. That is like parents telling their kids not to play with certain other kids, and when folks ask why they told their kids such a thing, the parents save face by saying “It is not a rule, it is more of a guideline.”.

 

[Corki]

“The Bishop only asked that all priests prayerfully reflect on what he has told them, commit themselves to making teaching effectively their first priority and keep in mind the irreplaceable power of the witness of their unity with each other.”

So, should we expect a diocisan-wide pro life rally so the priests can show the power of their unity with each other?

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Perhaps so. My diocese has them as do others.

Disunity among the priests leads directly to disunity among the laity which is definately a bishop’s concern. But we do well to recall that the early church fathers said “where the bishop is, there is the church”.

 

[wynnejj]

It is also important, the Bishop noted, to keep in mind that oftentimes decisions about abortions are not made primarily in clinics. Such decisions are made around kitchen tables and in living rooms and they frequently involve a sister, daughter, relative or friend who may have been pressured or abandoned by the man who fathered the child. Attitudes too are formed in homes and families. This would seem to suggest, the Bishop told the priests, “that our primary efforts as teachers need to be focused on our families and our parish communities, always demonstrating solidarity with vulnerable women.”

In a Christian family, how is it that such a family conference or friendly pressure can even be aired with a vulnerable woman in the first place? The answer is easy. Contraception & cohabitation are treated as non-issues from the pulpit, and subsequently in the family. Abortion is not spoken of in terms of pre-meditated murder, which is what it is, from the pulpit and its legalization supports that view that it is not murder, but rather the lesser of two evils in the case of an unwanted pregnancy or fetal defect.

The primary focus of priests as teachers should be focused on preaching and praying for Christians to come to the realization that contraception & cohabitation & abortion are the #1 problem in our secular world that is destroying the family & church & state. That is how one demonstrates solidarity with vulnerable women.

 

[johnnykins]

St. Ignatius of Loyola by way of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

footnote 280 is to St. Ignatius’s Spiritual Exercises.

PS It’s a fourm rule too.

Not quite a complete quote - and even then what is said by the catechism is not what was stated here. Here is the full quote omitting footnotes

2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury.

He becomes guilty:

• of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;

• of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them;

• of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.

2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

Every good Christian** ought to be more ready** to give a favorable interpretation to another's statement than to condemn it. But **if he cannot do so**, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.

Emphasis added

The quote at issue:

Originally Posted by Cojuanco
Remember, as Catholic laymen, we are to put the most charitable construction on the acts of any of our fellow Catholics, especially our priests and bishops.

emphasis added
Note the absolute nature of the statement without the qualifiers. Believe it or not qualifiers matter. Too often, way too often IMHO, folks latch onto a good statement, spin it or misinterpret it and it comes out very different. Certainly rash judgments must be avoided - but that does not mean we “must” put a “charitable construction” on what was said - nor does the Catechism or St Ignatius say that… what they say has qualifiers of a very important nature.

As to the forum rules - kindly point out which one you mean as I cannot find one that says anything remotely similar to the quote at issue.

 

[Tigg]

In a Christian family, how is it that such a family conference or friendly pressure can even be aired with a vulnerable woman in the first place? The answer is easy. Contraception & cohabitation are treated as non-issues from the pulpit, and subsequently in the family. Abortion is not spoken of in terms of pre-meditated murder, which is what it is, from the pulpit and its legalization supports that view that it is not murder, but rather the lesser of two evils in the case of an unwanted pregnancy or fetal defect.

The primary focus of priests as teachers should be focused on preaching and praying for Christians to come to the realization that contraception & cohabitation & abortion are the #1 problem in our secular world that is destroying the family & church & state. That is how one demonstrates solidarity with vulnerable women.

Absolutely wonderful post!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

wisdomseeker;8373572**:

I dont know why we have to go in front of abortion clinics to make an statement.

We must pray to God and not be show offs to people. That is my opinion.

Any way this is not as bad as what happened in Florida in which Someone in the Diocese called the police to Catholics pro lifers who put panphlets on the perishoners cars.

This is a mission for the leaders of the Church to do by educating Catholics and call upon Catholics who supports the evils in the world.

I will tell you why. Because not only the mothers and fathers going into the clinics are greatly affected by our prayerful presence, the workers inside the clinics are also pricked to the heart, and many have quit their jobs and found other employment.

It is CRUCIAL that the clinics have visible opposition to their mission of killing babies. It is CRUCIAL that we show the presence and love of Christ by prayerfully being present at those clinics. We don’t shout at the escorts, we pray for them. We don’t confront the staff, we pray for them. We just go and pray. We may hand out brochures if the situation allows it. We may guide women into special buses to get an ultrasound. But prayer works miracles.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

And, my opinion is that the message should be spoken from the pulpit until everyone in the church cries and tears their clothing. People should be weeping and wailing in horror as they leave after Mass. People should be taking days off work to go to the abortion mills and pray. I don’t care if women have had abortions, they should feel convicted not to sit there week after week not saying anything and have the clergy not offer them help and point them to the cross. Same with men who know they have gotten women pregnant and paid for abortion. Same with the parents who took their daughters to the abortion clinic in order to get the “problem” over with. They should all be sobbing in distress and lining up to confess.

This is the one issue that the modern Church has failed in. For once, stop talking about molestation, those cases are long over with. Mistakes were made. But this deafening silence means babies die, day after day after wretched day. Over 3,000 babies today. And tomorrow. And the day after that. Over 50 MILLION BABIES have been killed since 1973! Apart from Fr. Pavone and a few Bishops, who in the Church has truly responded?

 

[wynnejj]

And, my opinion is that the message should be spoken from the pulpit until everyone in the church cries and tears their clothing.

Yes to all of your post. I’m constantly amazed at the lack of real prayer & action. This thread is about a bishop who dissuades clergy from participating in the 40 Days for Life prayer vigil. Yet week after week I’m amazed at the rarity of prayer petitions at Sunday Mass on behalf of changing hearts & minds towards respect for sanctity of life & marriage. It is very troubling.