Confusion as Spokane bishop asks priests not to join 40 Days for Life vigils

[Tigg]

This is the one issue that the modern Church has failed in. For once, stop talking about molestation, those cases are long over with. Mistakes were made. But this deafening silence means babies die, day after day after wretched day. Over 3,000 babies today. And tomorrow. And the day after that. Over 50 MILLION BABIES have been killed since 1973! Apart from Fr. Pavone and a few Bishops, who in the Church has truly responded?

And then there’s the Catholic $$ that has unwittingly been given to pro-abort groups out of lack of supervision and proper vigilance thru agencies such as the CCHD and others. It really is mind-boggling when you think of the consequences of our inaction.

 

[Joe_5859]

Apart from Fr. Pavone and a few Bishops, who in the Church has truly responded?

I was with you until this statement. I think it’s a bit of an exaggeration. There are more than just a handful of people working to end abortion. Just because they don’t make headlines or have a national following doesn’t make the work they do any less important or significant.

 

[wynnejj]

:thumbsup:It really is mind-boggling when you think of the consequences of our inaction.

The lack of alarm about the horror of abortion, whose tone is set by Christian priests & ministers, has led to a lack of alarm in all Christian society. It is what Father Pavone has called the Genovese or bystander effect.

 

[wynnejj]

I was with you until this statement. I think it’s a bit of an exaggeration. There are more than just a handful of people working to end abortion. Just because they don’t make headlines or have a national following doesn’t make the work they do any less important or significant.

The RealJuliane’s exaggeration doesn’t make her assertion any less important or significant. Let’s not exaggerate to the other extreme.

We, as Catholics striving to defend our faith, keep defending the indefensible actions of those elements in Catholic society that try to inflate other social justice issues and deflate the legalized abortion issue. Legalized abortion is the #1 social justice issue of our times, just as feeding Christians to the lions was the #1 social justice issue in Roman times. Yet it gets minimalistic treatment in Catholic society. Most notably by the rare prayer or sermon offered at Sunday Mass.

 

[Tigg]

We, as Catholics striving to defend our faith, **keep defending the indefensible actions of those elements in Catholic society that try to inflate other social justice issues and deflate the legalized abortion issue. ** Legalized abortion is the #1 social justice issue of our times,…Yet it gets minimalistic treatment in Catholic society. Most notably by the rare prayer or sermon offered at Sunday Mass.

Great point, and unfortunately we still see the remnants of the “Seamless Garment” trying to minimize deliberate evil.

 

[wynnejj]

Spokane diocese clarifies 40 Days position, but privately discourages priest prayer vigils
by Kathleen Gilbert * Tue Sep 20, 2011 16:05 EST

lifesitenews.com/news/spokane-diocese-clarifies-40-days-position-but-privately-discourages-priest

While the statement appears to allow priests to participate in such events according to their discretion, multiple sources have confirmed to LifeSiteNews that the diocese has also privately reinforced its request, via e-mail communications, that priests and seminarians not do so.

Other sources told LSN that the chancery appears to be allowing 40 Days for Life promotion in parishes, but has privately reinforced a request that priests not participate in abortion clinic vigils, while not strictly forbidding it, in order to maintain unity behind the diocese’s educational outreach.

Sources at Gonzaga University in Spokane told LSN that the communication particularly impacted seminarians at the nearby Bishop White Seminary, who have been told to no longer come in plainclothes to join the university pro-life group’s rosary outside the local Planned Parenthood on Fridays.

 

[gakroeger]

Spokane diocese clarifies 40 Days position, but privately discourages priest prayer vigils
by Kathleen Gilbert * Tue Sep 20, 2011 16:05 EST

lifesitenews.com/news/spokane-diocese-clarifies-40-days-position-but-privately-discourages-priest

This causes me to repost my earlier question. Can anyone from the Spokane diocese confirm that the parishes there are doing a better job of “educating” Catholics of that area on issues of abortion, contraception, marriage?

To me this would indicate whether the bishop is serious about education instead of prayer vigils. I suspect this diocese is as lax as most in this area.

 

[wynnejj]

This causes me to repost my earlier question. Can anyone from the Spokane diocese confirm that the parishes there are doing a better job of “educating” Catholics of that area on issues of abortion, contraception, marriage?

A good indicator of whether a diocese places emphasis on these issues is their website.

dioceseofspokane.org

I’ve done a survey of diocesan websites in my state, and I conclude that there are many that have a good Pro-Life message and many that are seriously deficient. Many that are seriously deficient do cater to social programs. The collaboration of church & state on social programs do seem to conflict with placing emphasis on life issues.

 

[Tigg]

Spokane diocese clarifies 40 Days position, but privately discourages priest prayer vigils

Sources at Gonzaga University in Spokane told LSN that the communication particularly impacted seminarians at the nearby Bishop White Seminary, who have been told to no longer come in plainclothes to join the university pro-life group’s rosary outside the local Planned Parenthood on Fridays.

If this is true, then our Blessed Mother must be very sad at this turn of events and I wonder what “inner” message this sends to aspiring priests. If they’re in plain clothes quietly praying, who is to know they are seminarians?

I’ve done a survey of diocesan websites in my state, and I conclude that there are many that have a good Pro-Life message and many that are seriously deficient. Many that are seriously deficient do cater to social programs. The collaboration of church & state on social programs do seem to conflict with placing emphasis on life issues.

I’ve noticed this too and from a spiritual standpoint, devotion to Our Lady is often times absent as many social justice groups have joined hands with the protestant/evangelicals and also promote a particular political ideology not in accord with Catholic teaching.

 

[gakroeger]

If this is true, then our Blessed Mother must be very sad at this turn of events and I wonder what “inner” message this sends to aspiring priests. If they’re in plain clothes quietly praying, who is to know they are seminarians?

I’ve noticed this too and from a spiritual standpoint, devotion to Our Lady is often times absent as many social justice groups have joined hands with the protestant/evangelicals and also promote a particular political ideology not in accord with Catholic teaching.

And, unless I missed it somehow, I could not find any Pro-Life, Contraception, or Sanctity of Marriage messages on the Diocese for Spokane website. If the bishop is serious about education of these issues I would think it would be prominent on their website.

I am concerned that there are voices within the hierarchy of the Church that do not want to appear “fanatical” about abortion and they maybe influencing bishops such as in this case and that of Fr. Frank Pavone. I don’t think Jesus was afraid to appear “fanatical”. Our own pastor told our parish pro-life leader to be careful about appearing “fanatical”. For the love of God, we are talking about solid Church teaching and lives of the unborn, how can that be “fanatical”?

 

[Joe_5859]

And, unless I missed it somehow, I could not find any Pro-Life, Contraception, or Sanctity of Marriage messages on the Diocese for Spokane website. If the bishop is serious about education of these issues I would think it would be prominent on their website.

I am concerned that there are voices within the hierarchy of the Church that do not want to appear “fanatical” about abortion and they maybe influencing bishops such as in this case and that of Fr. Frank Pavone. I don’t think Jesus was afraid to appear “fanatical”. Our own pastor told our parish pro-life leader to be careful about appearing “fanatical”. For the love of God, we are talking about solid Church teaching and lives of the unborn, how can that be “fanatical”?

I don’t think concerns over appearing fanatical are completely misplaced. If our actions feed negative stereotypes and caricatures, it makes it more difficult to get people to listen to what we have to say.

That said, I have a hard time understanding why prayerful protests outside of abortion mills are “fanatical”. I can understand not being on board with the use of graphic images of aborted babies, but a witness of prayer?

I don’t think this has anything to do with Fr. Pavone, though.

 

[seekerz]

I don’t think concerns over appearing fanatical are completely misplaced. If our actions feed negative stereotypes and caricatures, it makes it more difficult to get people to listen to what we have to say.

That said, I have a hard time understanding why prayerful protests outside of abortion mills are “fanatical”. I can understand not being on board with the use of graphic images of aborted babies, but a witness of prayer?

I don’t think this has anything to do with Fr. Pavone, though.

I agree with the concerns over fanaticism. One can never be too passionate about saving life however the ways in which this passion is expressed are crucial to their success.

In my opinion, too many pro-life protesters put emotions, particularly righteous indignation, over effectiveness of their actions. It really matters little how much you care about a cause if your number one priority is about not taking actions that are most likely to promote the cause.

Praying outside an abortion clinic (if that is all that is done) is not wrong in any way, shape or form however, politicizing abortion is divisive regardless of the genuineness (or lack of it) of politicians’ stances, attempting to force people to adopt our beliefs is similarly counterproductive to the aim of saving babies’ lives, so is condemnation of whole groups of people (as opposed to condemnation of actions) , superciliousness, disrespect for those who support abortion, justification of any/all actions taken in support of life…the list goes on.

Some of this behavior is pretty common among opponents of abortion and unfortunately, while it feels good and while some may believe it to be justified - the fact remains it does nothing to hinder abortion and may indeed hurt the cause. I have had occasion on this forum to ask certain members how they could ask people to respect life in the womb when they themselves were exhibiting disrespect for life outside it. As Catholics, we all understand the gravity of abortion relative to other sins/transgressions but that does not make every kind of behavior okay in support of the unborn.

I fully understand where the bishop is coming from because I’ve gradually come to that point myself. It’s analagous to the passage of Scripture that says don’t bless your hungry/thirsty brother and turn away but meet his needs also. By the time most women get to an abortion clinic they have been carrying around significant unfulfilled needs (spiritual, emotional, social and physical) and reaching them there is really reaching them too late in many cases. There is no way to effectively love people at arms length; we have to love them in homes, communities, parishes and social circles.

To truly love at risk women effectively, we have to genuinely care, about their babies but also about them as people. Is it possible that some of these women have never/seldom had someone to pray with them in their troubles until/unless they were carrying another life inside them?! Might that be why so many are unmoved by, or even passionately opposed to attempts to reach them?

Love is the main antidote to abortion: not anger (which is easily and often interpreted as hate), not necessarily even protests (prayerful, peaceful or otherwise)… a love that is not pie-in-the sky fluff but down to earth, real and active. A love that says you are my brother, you are my sister, let’s together help the little sisters/brothers inside…

 

[wynnejj]

I agree with the concerns over fanaticism. One can never be too passionate about saving life however the ways in which this passion is expressed are crucial to their success.

In my opinion, too many pro-life protesters put emotions, particularly righteous indignation, over effectiveness of their actions. It really matters little how much you care about a cause if your number one priority is about not taking actions that are most likely to promote the cause.

Praying outside an abortion clinic (if that is all that is done) is not wrong in any way, shape or form however, politicizing abortion is divisive regardless of the genuineness (or lack of it) of politicians’ stances, attempting to force people to adopt our beliefs is similarly counterproductive to the aim of saving babies’ lives, so is condemnation of whole groups of people (as opposed to condemnation of actions) , superciliousness, disrespect for those who support abortion, justification of any/all actions taken in support of life…the list goes on.

Some of this behavior is pretty common among opponents of abortion and unfortunately, while it feels good and while some may believe it to be justified - the fact remains it does nothing to hinder abortion and may indeed hurt the cause. I have had occasion on this forum to ask certain members how they could ask people to respect life in the womb when they themselves were exhibiting disrespect for life outside it. As Catholics, we all understand the gravity of abortion relative to other sins/transgressions but that does not make every kind of behavior okay in support of the unborn.

I fully understand where the bishop is coming from because I’ve gradually come to that point myself. It’s analagous to the passage of Scripture that says don’t bless your hungry/thirsty brother and turn away but meet his needs also. By the time most women get to an abortion clinic they have been carrying around significant unfulfilled needs (spiritual, emotional, social and physical) and reaching them there is really reaching them too late in many cases. There is no way to effectively love people at arms length; we have to love them in homes, communities, parishes and social circles.

To truly love at risk women effectively, we have to genuinely care, about their babies but also about them as people. Is it possible that some of these women have never/seldom had someone to pray with them in their troubles until/unless they were carrying another life inside them?! Might that be why so many are unmoved by, or even passionately opposed to attempts to reach them?

Love is the main antidote to abortion: not anger (which is easily and often interpreted as hate), not necessarily even protests (prayerful, peaceful or otherwise)… a love that is not pie-in-the sky fluff but down to earth, real and active. A love that says you are my brother, you are my sister, let’s together help the little sisters/brothers inside…

All right! Enough of that. It started out as a good idea, but now it just silly!

Sounds like Hell’s Grannies

 

[Tigg]

I am concerned that there are voices within the hierarchy of the Church that do not want to appear “fanatical” about abortion and they maybe influencing bishops such as in this case and that of Fr. Frank Pavone. I don’t think Jesus was afraid to appear “fanatical”. Our own pastor told our parish pro-life leader to be careful about appearing “fanatical”. For the love of God, we are talking about solid Church teaching and lives of the unborn, how can that be “fanatical”?

It’s all about being politically correct. And someone already mentioned the harm in the non-profit status - the 501(c)3 “church” corporations - I guess the bishop becomes the corporate officer in the eyes of the state.

 

[seekerz]

All right! Enough of that. It started out as a good idea, but now it just silly!

Sounds like Hell’s Grannies

 

[wynnejj]

All right! Enough of that. It started out as a good idea, but now it just silly!

Sounds like Hell’s Grannies

Seekerz,

Your post attempts to make Pro-Life efforts appear fanatical, by labelling as “pretty common among opponents of abortion” certain criteria for fanatical behavior, for the most part is absurd. Your reasoning, IMO, makes as much sense as labelling Tea Party adherents as terrorist for bringing forth real issues.

Praying outside an abortion clinic (if that is all that is done) is not wrong in any way, shape or form, ** however,**,

1. Politicizing abortion is divisive regardless of the genuineness (or lack of it) of politicians’ stances

? How do we honor CCC 2273 which states that civil societies must seek to make abortion illegal with appropriate penalties, if one arbitrarily labels as fanatical the act of engaging in the political discourse required in bringing forth issues in a democratic society?

1. Attempting to force people to adopt our beliefs is similarly counter-productive to the aim of saving babies’ lives,

? Attempting to gain laws against murder, which force people to adopt our moral beliefs against murder, are counter-productive to saving victims of murder?

1. So is condemnation of whole groups of people (as opposed to condemnation of actions),

? What you call condemnation of whole groups, I call putting criminal groups out of business - which include the abortion clinics and pro-abortion candidates of any party.

1. Superciliousness

? Nothing worse than using your supercilium to brow-beat someone, the worst kind of hate crime?

1. Disrespect for those who support abortion

? Reserved for hypocrites & vipers, who use your #2 argument to dissuade Catholics from their moral duty to make abortion illegal with penalties as stated in CCC 2273.

1. Justification of any/all actions taken in support of life

? This is disingenuous. Name the pro-life group that justifies any/all actions taken in support of life. Let’s take the CBR group as the example of a group that some view as fanatical. One may not like the graphical depiction of abortion, as one may not like the movie “The Passion of the Christ”. However, when one views these disturbing graphical images, it is as it was purportedly commented by JPII… “It is as it was!”.

The Monty Python skit “Hell’s Grannies” is my canned response at any efforts to make peace-able protesters to appear to be hoodlums. I find the billboard in the video particularly poignant… Make Tea, Not Love… which to me reads… Make Tea (socially conservative, of course), Not Love (socially liberal, of course).

 

[gakroeger]

Seekerz,

Your post attempts to make Pro-Life efforts appear fanatical, by labelling as “pretty common among opponents of abortion” certain criteria for fanatical behavior, for the most part is absurd. Your reasoning, IMO, makes as much sense as labelling Tea Party adherents as terrorist for bringing forth real issues.

Praying outside an abortion clinic (if that is all that is done) is not wrong in any way, shape or form, ** however,**,

1. Politicizing abortion is divisive regardless of the genuineness (or lack of it) of politicians’ stances

? How do we honor CCC 2273 which states that civil societies must seek to make abortion illegal with appropriate penalties, if one arbitrarily labels as fanatical the act of engaging in the political discourse required in bringing forth issues in a democratic society?

1. Attempting to force people to adopt our beliefs is similarly counter-productive to the aim of saving babies’ lives,

? Attempting to gain laws against murder, which force people to adopt our moral beliefs against murder, are counter-productive to saving victims of murder?

1. So is condemnation of whole groups of people (as opposed to condemnation of actions),

? What you call condemnation of whole groups, I call putting criminal groups out of business - which include the abortion clinics and pro-abortion candidates of any party.

1. Superciliousness

? Nothing worse than using your supercilium to brow-beat someone, the worst kind of hate crime?

1. Disrespect for those who support abortion

? Reserved for hypocrites & vipers, who use your #2 argument to dissuade Catholics from their moral duty to make abortion illegal with penalties as stated in CCC 2273.

1. Justification of any/all actions taken in support of life

? This is disingenuous. Name the pro-life group that justifies any/all actions taken in support of life. Let’s take the CBR group as the example of a group that some view as fanatical. One may not like the graphical depiction of abortion, as one may not like the movie “The Passion of the Christ”. However, when one views these disturbing graphical images, it is as it was purportedly commented by JPII… “It is as it was!”.

The Monty Python skit “Hell’s Grannies” is my canned response at any efforts to make peace-able protesters to appear to be hoodlums. I find the billboard in the video particularly poignant… Make Tea, Not Love… which to me reads… Make Tea (socially conservative, of course), Not Love (socially liberal, of course).

Well said…

I am still looking for any evidence that the Diocese of Spokane is doing anything to educate Catholics on Abortion, Contraception, and Marriage.

 

[wynnejj]

Then there is the real-world, not that pie-in-the-sky fluff, that will make a real dent in reducing abortion…

I fully understand where the bishop is coming from because I’ve gradually come to that point myself. It’s analagous to the passage of Scripture that says don’t bless your hungry/thirsty brother and turn away but meet his needs also. By the time most women get to an abortion clinic they have been carrying around significant unfulfilled needs (spiritual, emotional, social and physical) and reaching them there is really reaching them too late in many cases. There is no way to effectively love people at arms length; we have to love them in homes, communities, parishes and social circles.

To truly love at risk women effectively, we have to genuinely care, about their babies but also about them as people. Is it possible that some of these women have never/seldom had someone to pray with them in their troubles until/unless they were carrying another life inside them?! Might that be why so many are unmoved by, or even passionately opposed to attempts to reach them?

Love is the main antidote to abortion: not anger (which is easily and often interpreted as hate), not necessarily even protests (prayerful, peaceful or otherwise)… a love that is not pie-in-the sky fluff but down to earth, real and active. A love that says you are my brother, you are my sister, let’s together help the little sisters/brothers inside…

How about a down to earth, real and active example of how one goes about truly loving at-risk women effectively? This is the crux of the bishop’s argument too that you seem to be channelling … with no real world solution proffered.

 

[wynnejj]

Well said…

I am still looking for any evidence that the Diocese of Spokane is doing anything to educate Catholics on Abortion, Contraception, and Marriage.

I’ve poked around quite a bit, and the only evidence that I encountered was a 01-21-2011 Celebrate Life! Mass on the calendar. I haven’t gone through all their diocese magazines, but I haven’t found any pro-life messages there either that were of any consequence.

The Washington State Catholic Conference is pretty sparse in its Pro-Life message too.

 

[seekerz]

Seekerz,

Your post attempts to make Pro-Life efforts appear fanatical, by labelling as “pretty common among opponents of abortion” certain criteria for fanatical behavior, for the most part is absurd. Your reasoning, IMO, makes as much sense as labelling Tea Party adherents as terrorist for bringing forth real issues.

See, you’re making my point for me, at the very start of a response to my post on abortion, you’re indulging in political imagery. If I were an abortion supporter, you would have lost me by the second sentence.

Praying outside an abortion clinic (if that is all that is done) is not wrong in any way, shape or form, ** however,**,

1. Politicizing abortion is divisive regardless of the genuineness (or lack of it) of politicians’ stances

? How do we honor CCC 2273 which states that civil societies must seek to make abortion illegal with appropriate penalties, if one arbitrarily labels as fanatical the act of engaging in the political discourse required in bringing forth issues in a democratic society?

I never labelled political discourse as fanatical, rather I meant to refer to the excessive political polarization already mentioned above. Political discourse actually does not have to be divisive…the real pity is that it is increasingly so. There are ways to take strong stances on a multitude of social issues without getting polarized into political camps; the ‘Church official’ does it everyday…

1. Attempting to force people to adopt our beliefs is similarly counter-productive to the aim of saving babies’ lives,

? Attempting to gain laws against murder, which force people to adopt our moral beliefs against murder, are counter-productive to saving victims of murder?

I did not mention laws when I mentioned forcing beliefs on people and that was deliberate. I see no real possibility of laws substantially reducing abortion (for a number of reasons, mostly related to rapidly changing technology and methodology). I am referring to a situation where abortion is legal but attempts are made to force people to act according to our beliefs (e.g. forcing them to have ultrasounds and listen to the descriptions). From personal experience, human nature (particularly with the adolescents and young adults) follows Newtons laws (at least I believe it was Newton): forcible action tend to produce an equal and opposite reaction. It’s not so much a question of whether the force is justified, but whether it achieves the desired aim. From where I sit, the answer seems to be, no. Persuasion, on the other hand can be a very effective tool if correctly applied.

1. So is condemnation of whole groups of people (as opposed to condemnation of actions),

? What you call condemnation of whole groups, I call putting criminal groups out of business - which include the abortion clinics and pro-abortion candidates of any party.

Again you are illustrating my point. Abortion is legal, regardless of how we feel about it; therefore it is at the very least, inaccurate and patently unhelpful to refer to clinic staff and pro-abortion candidates as criminals. Don’t you get it? However justifiable it may feel to make these kinds of statements, the rhetoric helps no one, least of all the innocents we should be trying to save. The question sometimes appears to me to be one of priority: are expressing feelings of outrage/condemnation more important than saving lives? If we agree that they are not, then the language needs a tone-down…

1. Superciliousness

? Nothing worse than using your supercilium to brow-beat someone, the worst kind of hate crime?

1. Disrespect for those who support abortion

? Reserved for hypocrites & vipers, who use your #2 argument to dissuade Catholics from their moral duty to make abortion illegal with penalties as stated in CCC 2273.

You’re turning me off…and I’m a pro-life Catholic who risked my career to take a stand against abortion. Why would you imagine that this approach is not similarly turning off the very people who need to be convinced of the justice of your cause?

1. Justification of any/all actions taken in support of life

? This is disingenuous. Name the pro-life group that justifies any/all actions taken in support of life. Let’s take the CBR group as the example of a group that some view as fanatical. One may not like the graphical depiction of abortion, as one may not like the movie “The Passion of the Christ”. However, when one views these disturbing graphical images, it is as it was purportedly commented by JPII… “It is as it was!”.

You sound touchy about this one. I never accused any group of such behavior; each group is made up of individuals last time I checked. Again I return to my theme: how effective are graphic depictions (let’s leave aside the respect for the tiny broken bodies); where’s the research? My guess is that they are equally liable to harden support for abortion as to soften it but that is just my guess because I have seen no studies either way.

You have a right to take whatever approach you choose. I choose to examine the probable success of your choices particularly those commonly justified by, “if even one woman sees this and is moved to not abort, then it’s worth it”; my parallel question beocmes: how likely is a particular choice to have the opposite effect (through angering/alienating her) on even one woman considering abortion?