Confusion as Spokane bishop asks priests not to join 40 Days for Life vigils

[seekerz]

Then there is the real-world, not that pie-in-the-sky fluff, that will make a real dent in reducing abortion…

How about a down to earth, real and active example of how one goes about truly loving at-risk women effectively? This is the crux of the bishop’s argument too that you seem to be channelling … with no real world solution proffered.

What is more real world than reaching out to people in love? For example, college kids are particularly likely to consider abortion due to the potential effect on their studies/future plans. So, a possible strategy in a college town could be a program to welcome new students and enable them to pair up with local families - kind of like a family away from home. Would that necessarily decrease promiscuity or unplanned pregnancy? Possibly not, but in the event these did happen, they’d already have friends to turn to for advice/support. Is it guaranteed to decrease abortion? Maybe - maybe not, but convincing a friend to choose life is possibly easier than convincing a total stranger.

That is just one of myriads of possibilities. I know a religious organisation that does very well, not by formally proselytizing (not saying they should or shouldn’t) but by entering a community and creating social networks. Their theory is that a friend is easier to bring to God than a stranger. They seem to do pretty well too.

 

[franas]

I’ve poked around quite a bit, and the only evidence that I encountered was a 01-21-2011 Celebrate Life! Mass on the calendar. I haven’t gone through all their diocese magazines, but I haven’t found any pro-life messages there either that were of any consequence.

The Washington State Catholic Conference is pretty sparse in its Pro-Life message too.

Reality check. It wouldn’t surprise me a bit if it is the same lame leadership in Spokane. While the apostles shed their blood in witnessing their faith, their successors are typically administrators who issued a couple of pastoral letters, attended business meetings and performed one annual public Confirmation service. God bless all the priests and lay people who have taken the time to publicly witness their faith in front of abortion clinics. They are the true saints living on earth.

 

[wynnejj]

See, you’re making my point for me, at the very start of a response to my post on abortion, you’re indulging in political imagery. If I were an abortion supporter, you would have lost me by the second sentence.

Your arguments are all the same ones offered by that particular breed of Catholic who says that say that they are religiously pro-life but politically pro-choice, denying the CCC 2273 mandate to make abortion illegal with penalties.

Your arguments denounce the tools employed by active Pro-Life efforts as ineffective and counter-productive. Your arguments remind me of another Monty Python skit about a small knight who meets a large black knight who says “You cannot pass”. The black knight cuts off an arm, and the small knight says “Come back here. I can still fight you.”. He comes back time and again, each time cutting off another appendage, and each time the small knight says “Come back here. I can still fight you.”. Wouldn’t it be nice if the large black knight allowed the small knight to continue in search of the Holy Grail? But you say that the small knight is just another Don Quixote fighting windmills with pie-in-the-sky fluff.

I wonder what God thinks. Does He back CCC 2273? Does He back Pro-Life efforts that you describe as counter-productive?

 

[seekerz]

Your arguments are all the same ones offered by that particular breed of Catholic who says that say that they are religiously pro-life but politically pro-choice, denying the CCC 2273 mandate to make abortion illegal with penalties.

Your arguments denounce the tools employed by active Pro-Life efforts as ineffective and counter-productive. Your arguments remind me of another Monty Python skit about a small knight who meets a large black knight who says “You cannot pass”. The black knight cuts off an arm, and the small knight says “Come back here. I can still fight you.”. He comes back time and again, each time cutting off another appendage, and each time the small knight says “Come back here. I can still fight you.”. Wouldn’t it be nice if the large black knight allowed the small knight to continue in search of the Holy Grail? But you say that the small knight is just another Don Quixote fighting windmills with pie-in-the-sky fluff.

I wonder what God thinks. Does He back CCC 2273? Does He back Pro-Life efforts that you describe as counter-productive?

I refuse to be categorized to any ‘breed’ but nice try…

To answer your question, I don’t think God would think highly of counter-productive efforts, which is why He gives wisdom, discernment, humility and most of all, love; so we can step back, take stock and reconsider what works and what doesn’t.

 

[gakroeger]

Reality check. It wouldn’t surprise me a bit if it is the same lame leadership in Spokane. While the apostles shed their blood in witnessing their faith, their successors are typically administrators who issued a couple of pastoral letters, attended business meetings and performed one annual public Confirmation service. God bless all the priests and lay people who have taken the time to publicly witness their faith in front of abortion clinics. They are the true saints living on earth.

I certainly do not envy the bishops and their tasks in this highly political age, however, upon reading the writings of St Augustine on the duties of our “Sheppards”, this age is not any different than the political environment of his time. St. Augustine is very critical of many of the bishops of his time.

I am currently reading a recently released book “Padre Pio, Under Investigation” by author Vittorio Messori. I highly recommend it as required reading for all Catholics. The book addresses the questions about Padre Pio’s legitimacy and the recently released Vatican documents about the Vatican’s investigations of Padre Pio. Padre Pio was canonized by Pope John Paul II in 2002.

On page 41 of this book is read the following;

1. Padre Pio’s mission

What was the mission entrusted to Padre Pio? Regarding the question, the document we are examining is clear: Padre Pio was united with the Passion of our Lord to remedy men’s ingratitude. This then, is the sense and the character of his mission as a stigmatic: to share in Christ’s Passion for the sake of his brothers’ salvation.

On the same subject, we would like to highlight another peculiar aspect. The theme of ingratitude on the part of men, especially of those who are most favored by God, is not new in the private revelations of the Capuchin. A similar apparition occurred a few years before, on April 7th 1913. Padre Pio wrote to Father Agostino: On Friday morning I was still in bed, when Jesus appeared to me. He looked all battered and disfigured. He showed to me a great multitude of priest, regular and secular, among who many ecclesiastical dignitaries; some of them were celebrating, some were putting on sacred parament, and others were taking them off.

“The sight of Jesus in distress was very painful to me, so I asked him why he was suffering so much. He didn’t give me any answer. Then his glance turned to those priests, but soon, almost horrified and as if he tired of looking, he glanced down, and when he looked back up at me, with great horror I saw two tears running down his cheeks. He moved away from the throng of priests with an expression of great disgusts on his face, crying: ‘Butchers!”…………….

 

[gakroeger]

I refuse to be categorized to any ‘breed’ but nice try…

To answer your question, I don’t think God would think highly of counter-productive efforts, which is why He gives wisdom, discernment, humility and most of all, love; so we can step back, take stock and reconsider what works and what doesn’t.

Translation:
It is okay to vote for pro abortion politicians…

 

[wynnejj]

That is just one of myriads of possibilities.

You challenged Pro-Life efforts as being “pie-in-the-sky” fluff. You suggest a myriad of possibilities and one nameless organization which may or may not have anything to do with reducing abortion. Aren’t you feeling just a little fluffy?

May I recommend to you as a good source for social networking on college campuses …
cardinalnewmansociety.org/

 

[wynnejj]

To answer your question, I don’t think God would think highly of counter-productive efforts, which is why He gives wisdom, discernment, humility and most of all, love; so we can step back, take stock and reconsider what works and what doesn’t.

You have defined a textbook Protestant tenet when one denies the infallibility of the Pope who interprets wisdom and discernment guided by the Holy Spirit with the authority to bind & loose matters of faith & morals. God takes stock of what works and doesn’t work and, informs the Pope. We have been informed by the Pope that civil societies must mandate that abortion is illegal with penalties according to CCC 2273.

Are you claiming to be an authentic Pro-Life Catholic?
(I don’t mean this as a put-down. If you have doubts, join the club. I have difficulties with some of the social justice pronouncements in the catechism. It goes against my grain and, I’m not sure that I’m fully on-board yet.)

 

[wynnejj]

“The sight of Jesus in distress was very painful to me, so I asked him why he was suffering so much. He didn’t give me any answer. Then his glance turned to those priests, but soon, almost horrified and as if he tired of looking, he glanced down, and when he looked back up at me, with great horror I saw two tears running down his cheeks. He moved away from the throng of priests with an expression of great disgusts on his face, crying: ‘Butchers!”…………….

Wow! Given the context in today’s contraceptive / abortion society, that is very pointed.

 

[wynnejj]

Wow! Given the context in today’s contraceptive / abortion society, that is very pointed.

Another interesting aspect about Padre Pio’s apparition that occurred on April 7, 1913…
catholic-saints.net/saints/padre-pio.php

In a letter on April 7, 1913, Padre Pio said: “How many wretched brothers of ours respond to Jesus’ love by casting themselves with open arms into the infamous sect of Freemasonry!” During Padre Pio’s days, various non-Catholic sects were actively trying to convert Italian people. One of these sects opened a kindergarten near Padre Pio. Padre Pio knew that the children were being exposed to criticism of the Catholic faith. Padre Pio was very angry; he said to the superior: “Do something quickly! Go in my name to the archbishop and get permission to open a kindergarten right near theirs…” A kindergarten was started, and in a short period of time the sect had to close their kindergarten and move out. Padre Pio fought evil not only with prayer, but also with action.

… Freemasonry
… various non-Catholic sects were actively trying to convert
… One of these sects opened a kindergarten
… exposed to criticism of the Catholic faith
… Padre Pio was very angry
… Padre Pio fought evil not only with prayer, but also with action.

 

[gakroeger]

“The sight of Jesus in distress was very painful to me, so I asked him why he was suffering so much. He didn’t give me any answer. Then his glance turned to those priests, but soon, almost horrified and as if he tired of looking, he glanced down, and when he looked back up at me, with great horror I saw two tears running down his cheeks. He moved away from the throng of priests with an expression of great disgusts on his face, crying: ‘Butchers!”…………….

What I get from this is; if you are basing your decisions about voting or acting against true Church teaching from the magisterium and Jesus Himself on statements from Priests or Bishops providing you (you think) a loophole. Maybe, you should reevaluate your actions.

I understand this is why Ted Kennedy never changed his position on abortion…

 

[wynnejj]

Abortion is legal, regardless of how we feel about it; therefore it is at the very least, inaccurate and patently unhelpful to refer to clinic staff and pro-abortion candidates as criminals. … If we agree that they are not, then the language needs a tone-down…

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.
Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.74
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.
Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.75

My mistake… Did I say criminal?..
Silly me, I meant to say abominable criminal.

On a Catholic forum, I find it accurate and patently helpful to use the language of the Catechism.

 

[wynnejj]

What I get from this is; if you are basing your decisions about voting or acting against true Church teaching from the magisterium and Jesus Himself on statements from Priests or Bishops providing you (you think) a loophole. Maybe, you should reevaluate your actions.

I understand this is why Ted Kennedy never changed his position on abortion…

We have to assume that this account was a divine inspiration or vision. What occurred to me was how would Padre Pio interpret this vision in his time frame. What would he imagine that bishops & priests were doing that warranted be called “butchers”? That is why I found the letter about Freemasonry and secular infiltration into Catholic kindergarten classes to be especially significant. It seemed obvious to me that the problem that Padre Pio was working on at the moment was reinforced as being especially important in that bishops & priests were not being watchful about secular infiltration in the stewardship of their teaching authority which especially requires safeguarding the education of children.

Freemasonry is all about suggesting to multicultural people that we all have God inside of us to guide us and therefore, all religions show a different aspect of the God we share. This is far different from a God who guides a one true Church to all real truth in all its aspects of revealed truth.

If bishops & priests don’t guard against impurities introduced by non-Catholic religions…
well, the end product is butchery in its various forms throughout the ages.

 

[gakroeger]

We have to assume that this account was a divine inspiration or vision. What occurred to me was how would Padre Pio interpret this vision in his time frame. What would he imagine that bishops & priests were doing that warranted be called “butchers”? That is why I found the letter about Freemasonry and secular infiltration into Catholic kindergarten classes to be especially significant. It seemed obvious to me that the problem that Padre Pio was working on at the moment was reinforced as being especially important in that bishops & priests were not being watchful about secular infiltration in the stewardship of their teaching authority which especially requires safeguarding the education of children.

Freemasonry is all about suggesting to multicultural people that we all have God inside of us to guide us and therefore, all religions show a different aspect of the God we share. This is far different from a God who guides a one true Church to all real truth in all its aspects of revealed truth.

If bishops & priests don’t guard against impurities introduced by non-Catholic religions…
well, the end product is butchery in its various forms throughout the ages.

I also thought about the “butchers” word (translated from Italian I am sure). Looking up the translation of butchers to Italian I find;

v. macellare; (fig) massacrare, fare strage di

s. macellaio, beccaio; macellatore; (fig) assassino, uccisore, massacratore; (am) venditore ambulante

One could probably find the word used by Jesus in the original document.

In any case, my thought was possibly Jesus was speaking of where their actions were leading.

 

[gakroeger]

Getting back on topic

I am still trying to find any pro-life messages on the Spokane Diocese website. However, in our Church bulletin this weekend I find two pro-life letters from our Bishop Frank J. Dewane. Below is the text of one letter and a link from the second letter.

The second letter is asking all members of the diocese to go to the USCCB website and send an email to Health and Human Services objecting to the Conscience Rights Violation by Sweeping HHS Contraceptive Mandate. Once you send this email you will automatically be invited to send a message to your elected representatives in congress.

usccb.org/issues-and-action/religious-liberty/conscience-protection/index.cfm

The first letter (below) as you can see not only supports the lay actions to bring visibility to the abortion issue but also thanks those who participate.

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

The Catholic Church is at the forefront in speaking out on the issue of the sanctity of
life, from conception to natural death. Our responsibility is to answer the call to do
all we can in support of life.

Pope Benedict XVI has stated that he stands united with those who take on initiatives
that respect human life. The Diocese of Venice Respect Life Office is an example of
such an initiative and it works diligently to protect vulnerable individuals, right here
in the Diocese of Venice.

In order to continue its life-saving work, the Diocese of Venice will conduct a
Respect Life Collection, in conjunction with Respect Life Sunday, on the weekend
of October lst - 2nd. This national collection supports local initiatives, organizations
and programs for the promotion of life. The funds collected remain within the
Diocese of Venice, and facilitate our witness as a faith community.

Through the generosity of those who responded to the Collection, the Diocese
assisted organizations in serving the elderly, abortion-vulnerable women and their
children, as well as support programs that promote human trafficking victims
assistance, adoption, chastity, post abortion healing, and natural family planning.

Please continue to pray for a greater respect for all human life and to the best of your
ability please be generous in your financial support. Thank you for your help in this
crucial effort. Your gift literally means the difference between life and death.
May God bless you, and all who defend the sanctity of life.

Sincerely yours in Christ,
Frank J. Dewane
Bishop of the Diocese of Venice in Florida

Envelopes for this collection can be found on the entrance tables.

 

[seekerz]

Translation:
It is okay to vote for pro abortion politicians…

I see you keep trying to make this about politics…how has that worked out so far in ending abortion?

 

[seekerz]

You challenged Pro-Life efforts as being “pie-in-the-sky” fluff. You suggest a myriad of possibilities and one nameless organization which may or may not have anything to do with reducing abortion. Aren’t you feeling just a little fluffy?

May I recommend to you as a good source for social networking on college campuses …
cardinalnewmansociety.org/

Please refrain from making baseless accusations. I contrasted real, practical love to pie-in-the-sky fluff because from experience in this type of discussion, my promotion of loving persuasion as an alternative approach to ending abortion, has been characterized essentially as being unrealistic/fluffy.

Keep going down the road you are if it makes you happy - just claim it for what it is and not for what it isn’t: effective.

 

[seekerz]

My mistake… Did I say criminal?..
Silly me, I meant to say abominable criminal.

On a Catholic forum, I find it accurate and patently helpful to use the language of the Catechism.

If it makes you feel good do it…that the motto?

The Cathechism may call abortion a crime, but I don’t see it calling those who support it criminals since of course, they have not had a trial: civil or religious…

 

[seekerz]

You have defined a textbook Protestant tenet when one denies the infallibility of the Pope who interprets wisdom and discernment guided by the Holy Spirit with the authority to bind & loose matters of faith & morals. God takes stock of what works and doesn’t work and, informs the Pope. We have been informed by the Pope that civil societies must mandate that abortion is illegal with penalties according to CCC 2273.

Are you claiming to be an authentic Pro-Life Catholic?
(I don’t mean this as a put-down. If you have doubts, join the club. I have difficulties with some of the social justice pronouncements in the catechism. It goes against my grain and, I’m not sure that I’m fully on-board yet.)

Where did you see the doctrine of infallibility denied? I’m not saying abortion should not be made illegal, I’m simply stating a fact: that society has moved beyond the point where that alone (without effective evangelism) would make much difference in abortion rates. I’m pretty sure mandating penalties does not imply that legal remedies must necessarily be the main strategy. I’ll draw a parallel with gay marriage; it is ineffective for Christians to rally for legal protection of marriage as a heterosexual union if they are simultaneously playing musical chairs with multiple partners. Christian life has to be lived - it cannot be substituted for (rather it can be complemented) with legislation.

 

[ishii]

I see you keep trying to make this about politics…how has that worked out so far in ending abortion?

Not so well because so many catholics don’t consider morality when they vote.

Ishii