Confuzed on 1 Peter 3:21

[aball1035]

“Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

What does the “good conscience” part mean? Couldn’t it be used to back up the Protestant position?

Also, what do I say to Protestants that interpret these “baptism is necessary for salvation” verses by saying “if the person truly accepts Christ as his personal savior, he will be baptized, so in that sense, baptism is necessary for salvation”?

 

[Luke2445]

Hi Alex

This verse very cleary teaches the Catholic position on Baptism but as Catholics we must take all of scripture into consideration, and when interpreted in light of the other verses mentioned below, we can see that Baptism is indeed Salvific.

Acts 2:38 (RSV)
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the** forgiveness of your sins**; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16 (RSV)
16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Romans 6:3–4 (RSV)
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:11–13 (RSV)
11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12 and you were** buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God**, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

So in light of what these verses clearly teach about Baptism (That it makes you alive spiritually and washes away your sins) we can see that in 1 Peter 3:21 that peter is teaching

1. That Baptism saves you
2. That It is not a removal of dirt from the body (A physical cleansing) but a removal of dirt from the soul.
3. That its effects are interior, after baptism we have a clear concience because we have been forgiven of all our past sins original and actual an no longer have an evil conscience, The book of hebrews says.

Hebrews 10:22 (RSV)
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Through Baptism we become Children of God (1 John 3:1) and members of the Family of God, the body of Christ 1 Corinthians 12:12-13

Hope that helps.

 

[David89]

Luke2445

Just wanted to say thank you so much for this answer! Ive just had a protestant friend ask me how does that fit with catholic beliefs. I could not have gotten a more perfect answer!

Cheers

 

[Dave_Noonan]

“Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

What does the “good conscience” part mean? Couldn’t it be used to back up the Protestant position?

Also, what do I say to Protestants that interpret these “baptism is necessary for salvation” verses by saying “if the person truly accepts Christ as his personal savior, he will be baptized, so in that sense, baptism is necessary for salvation”?

I’m not sure what you mean by “Protestant position”–I think maybe you mean evangelical position? Protestants have a wide variety of viewpoints on the need for and effects of baptism.

I think it’s fairly clear that the overall objective of the verse is to compare a physical washing to a spiritual one. I’m not sure what translation you are using, but it seems a little garbled to me, which is probably causing some of your problem. I don’t really see any way that “eperotema” can be translated as “examination” but I guess I’m open to someone making a case for it. The word is better understood as the “answer” or “response” to God–in this context–I guess you could say that it’s a response to GOD’S examination? Hmmm…sorry I just can’t get there.

The “good conscience” part is not as bad–but the word “suneidesis” is more like consciousNESS or even “being” or “self-awareness”. In contemporary English, we would probably say “a clear conscience.”

By partaking in Christ’s resurrection via baptism (e.g., Romans 6) the 1 Peter verse says that the Christian’s “good being”/“clear conscience”–as a result of being in Christ’s Resurrection through Baptism)–is a “response” or “answer” to God. What God’s demand, question or requirement is is unstated in this particular verse, but I think one could see it as a demand for righteousness. Baptized Christians have a clear conscience in this regard, not that they are sinless, but that they are cleansed in Christ’s resurrection through Baptism.

I would probably translate the verse (and this is pretty rough because I haven’t done a ton of work and research) as something like:

“Baptism is now saving you, which this (i.e., just like the flood/ark saved Noah in the previous verses) typified for you–not through the removal of dirt from the flesh, but rather through a clear conscience as a response to God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

I suppose someone that opposes infant baptism could use this verse to say that infants don’t really have self-consciousness and thus Baptism applies only to adults. But since the effect (a “clear” or “good consciousness”) is only the result of partaking in Christ’s resurrection through Baptism I’d say that the argument would be pretty weak. Your translation’s nearly erroneous use of “examination” comes very close to sounding like something that Christians should do be doing prior to Baptism–sort of a requirement like “accepting Christ”, so using this translation has the potential to be very misleading in my opinion. But whatever translation you’re using, it’s clearly the Baptism that’s doing the saving in this verse.

Also, some Protestant groups (evangelical Quakers and some anabaptists, for example) see Baptism as entirely optional for the Christian.

 

[thistle]

“Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

What does the “good conscience” part mean? Couldn’t it be used to back up the Protestant position?

Also, what do I say to Protestants that interpret these “baptism is necessary for salvation” verses by saying “if the person truly accepts Christ as his personal savior, he will be baptized, so in that sense, baptism is necessary for salvation”?

D-R Bible, haydock Commentary:

Ver. 21. Baptism, &c. That is, the ark was a figure of baptism, which saveth you from the death of the soul; and as no one was saved from the waters of the deluge but those few eight persons who were in the ark, so no one can enter into heaven if he hath not been baptized, or hath had a desire of it when come to the use of reason. And such persons as are capable of knowing what they receive, must come with the dispositions of faith and a true repentance, which is here called the examination (literally, the interrogation[3]) of a good conscience, who therefore are examined whether they believe in one God and three Persons, &c. (Witham) — Baptism is said to be the like form with the water by which Noe[Noah] was saved, because the one was a figure of the other. — Not the putting away, &c. As much as to say, that baptism has not its efficacy, in order to salvation, from its washing away any bodily filth or dirt; but from its purging the conscience from sin: when accompanied with suitable dispositions in the party, to answer the interrogations made at that time, with relation to faith, the renouncing of Satan with all his works, and the obedience to God’s commands. (Challoner)

 

[PJM]

=aball1035;7167170]“Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

What does the “good conscience” part mean? Couldn’t it be used to back up the Protestant position?

Also, what do I say to Protestants that interpret these “baptism is necessary for salvation” verses by saying “if the person truly accepts Christ as his personal savior, he will be baptized, so in that sense, baptism is necessary for salvation”?

**John 3:5 WHICH IS afirmed and taught by the CC, confirms that Baptism is absolutely essential for salvation. John.3: 5 **"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

The issue then become what constitutes a VALID Baptism? And the CC replies under the authorty of God Himself: [Mt. 16:19, 18:18, John 20:19-22, John 14:16-17 and John 17:15-19] that The Normal form is with WATER in the name of the Blessed Tinity. BUT also vail are Baptism of Blood [martyrdom For Christ] and Baptism of Desire for those who NEVER HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO KNOW CHRIST.

As to conscience:

From the catechesim of the CC:

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

THIS APPLIES TO EVERY HUMAN PERSON, NOT ONLY WE CATHOLICS.

God WIll, Because God MUST Judge us on what He permits us to know and understand; w/o consideration of what we have accepted. Denial is seen as KNOWING and choosing a position pther than GODS!

HOWEVER: Baptism ONLY assures enrty into heaven UNTIL one SINS AGAIN! As soon as one sins AFTER being baptized ALL guareentes are OFF! Thus the need for The Othr Sacramnets; most espically Confession [1 Jn. 1:8-10, 1 Jn. 5:16-17, Mt. 16:19, and JOHN 20;19-23.] This position of the CC is SOLIDLY Biblical and the OSAS is NOT, and CANNOT be proven from the Bible.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[jcrichton]

“Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

What does the “good conscience” part mean? Couldn’t it be used to back up the Protestant position?

Also, what do I say to Protestants that interpret these “baptism is necessary for salvation” verses by saying “if the person truly accepts Christ as his personal savior, he will be baptized, so in that sense, baptism is necessary for salvation”?

…my perspective is that it goes against all who claim that Baptism is not necessary for salvation… that a simple prayer or a public confession of past transgression is all that is required to be “saved.” The passage tells us that not even putting away the filth of carnal passions (sexual and otherwise) is enough… it is Baptism that allows a person to enter into fellowship with Christ since if we are Baptized in Him we will also die in Him (the sin) and will be Resurrected in Him–though Yahweh God can salvage even the most wretched of sinners by simply Willing so (condemned prisoner at the Cross), He chose to bring us into His Fold through the Sacrament of Baptism.

The examination of our conscience is what Christians must do as we desire to claim ourselves in fellowship with Christ (St. Paul asks the same for those who are about to partake of the Lord’s Supper); a “good conscience,” I would imagine, is that state when we have become one with Christ (I am the Vine…)–which would, by necessity, require that we adhere to Christ’s Teachings (if you Love Me you would Obey my Commandments) and His Will is made known to the Church through the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Let’s look at the context:

*1PET 3:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

1PET 3:21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
*
One word: Obedience. Noah was obedient to God when he was instructed to build the ark and carry out the additional tasks that our Lord gave to him. By his Obedience he was saved through water.

Baptism is not necessary for Salvation, only Faith in Jesus Christ saves. Faith will convict your obedience to God. Saying you believe and have Faith does not complete the act of Faith alone. Faith is given to us as a gift and it manifests itself through the Spirit. Baptism reaffirms our Obedience to our Lord as an act of Faith.

There are several theologies on the “Order of Salvation” or “Ordo Salutis”. You can query it and read more about it.

Also, before going off on other interpretations keep in mind what Peter said 7-8 verses before:
*
1PET 3:8 And in fine, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, being lovers of the brotherhood, merciful, modest, humble:

1PET 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, nor railing for railing, but contrariwise, blessing: for unto this are you called, that you may inherit a blessing.*

Animum debes mutare, non caelum

 

[PJM]

=jcrichton;8027000]…my perspective is that it goes against all who claim that Baptism is not necessary for salvation… that a simple prayer or a public confession of past transgression is all that is required to be “saved.” The passage tells us that not even putting away the filth of carnal passions (sexual and otherwise) is enough… it is Baptism that allows a person to enter into fellowship with Christ since if we are Baptized in Him we will also die in Him (the sin) and will be Resurrected in Him–though Yahweh God can salvage even the most wretched of sinners by simply Willing so (condemned prisoner at the Cross), He chose to bring us into His Fold through the Sacrament of Baptism.

The examination of our conscience is what Christians must do as we desire to claim ourselves in fellowship with Christ (St. Paul asks the same for those who are about to partake of the Lord’s Supper); a “good conscience,” I would imagine, is that state when we have become one with Christ (I am the Vine…)–which would, by necessity, require that we adhere to Christ’s Teachings (if you Love Me you would Obey my Commandments) and His Will is made known to the Church through the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.

Maran atha!

Angel

And JESUS SAYS

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

And JESUS SAY"S:

** Matt.19: 17** “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

AND JESUS SAYS:

**Jn. 20:20 ** When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. ***If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” ***

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[jcrichton]

Let’s look at the context:

*1PET 3:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

1PET 3:21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
*
One word: Obedience. Noah was obedient to God when he was instructed to build the ark and carry out the additional tasks that our Lord gave to him. By his Obedience he was saved through water.

Baptism is not necessary for Salvation, only Faith in Jesus Christ saves. Faith will convict your obedience to God. Saying you believe and have Faith does not complete the act of Faith alone. Faith is given to us as a gift and it manifests itself through the Spirit. Baptism reaffirms our Obedience to our Lord as an act of Faith.

There are several theologies on the “Order of Salvation” or “Ordo Salutis”. You can query it and read more about it.

Also, before going off on other interpretations keep in mind what Peter said 7-8 verses before:
*
1PET 3:8 And in fine, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, being lovers of the brotherhood, merciful, modest, humble:

1PET 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, nor railing for railing, but contrariwise, blessing: for unto this are you called, that you may inherit a blessing.*

Animum debes mutare, non caelum

That theology simply rejects Christ’s Own Word:

Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (St. John 3:5)

…and Scriptures give further testament of the need for Baptism:

(All the people who listened, including the tax collectors, and who were baptized with the baptism of John, acknowledged the righteousness of God; but the Pharisees and scholars of the law, who were not baptized by him, rejected the plan of God for themselves.)

…as you can see it is the other way around–once we are Baptized the Holy Spirit enlightens us to the Word of God; the fellowship with God begins at the beginning; yet when people choose to reject God’s Plan they run on vapors, not the Holy Spirit so they cannot understand Christ!

Nicodemus did not have a hard time understanding physical equations; he simply could not see the need for Baptism, along with his fellow religious; it took Jesus’ private Tutoring to get him to understand: ‘must be born of water and spirit!’

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

And JESUS SAYS

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

And JESUS SAY"S:

** Matt.19: 17** “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

AND JESUS SAYS:

**Jn. 20:20 ** When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. ***If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” ***

God Bless you,
Pat

…I think you meant to post on the other reply… check my response again–I am not saying otherwise!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Isaiah45_9]

That theology simply rejects Christ’s Own Word:

Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (St. John 3:5)

…and Scriptures give further testament of the need for Baptism:

So we are to assume that water here refers to baptism? I see how it is likely to understand that, but wouldn’t Jesus have used the term baptism?

Could it not be that water is used in the same text as: John 13:10; 15:3; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Hebrews 10:22.

Or,

Jesus did make reference to “Living Water” in John 4:10 and John 7:37-39.

Being born of water and spirit, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. After all, Jesus washed away our sins. I tend to view it in this light.

 

[Abu]

Isaiah45_9
Being born of water and spirit, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. After all, Jesus washed away our sins. I tend to view it in this light.

Your “view” would seem to be the problem that you have.

Why?

1. Simply because Christ is God, and He founded His Church to teach us His truths.
2. She gave us the Bible and only She can interpret it correctly.

Meandering within the Sacred Scriptures without Her teaching is a recipe for confusion and error. Some 50,000 Protestant sects attest to this – all teaching something different, which is why they exist.

 

[PJM]

=Isaiah45_9;8036507]So we are to assume that water here refers to baptism? I see how it is likely to understand that, but wouldn’t Jesus have used the term baptism?

Could it not be that water is used in the same text as: John 13:10; 15:3; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Hebrews 10:22.

Or,

Jesus did make reference to “Living Water” in John 4:10 and John 7:37-39.

Being born of water and spirit, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. After all, Jesus washed away our sins. I tend to view it in this light.

**John.3: 1-5 ** "Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicode’mus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicode’mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus …
answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

CAN ONLY MEAN BAPTISM:

Luke.3: 3 “and he went into all the region about the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” Col.2: 12 “and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.” 1Pet.3: 21 “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”

Both references to “Living Water” are expressions of the EFFECTS of Baptism. “I AM” living water refers to ALL savation MUST flow through Jesus Christ and His Catholic Church.

John.13: "Jesus said to him, **“He who has bathed does not need to wash/B], except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not every one of you.”

NOTE: what I highlighted refers to having ALREADY been Baptism; not dirty feet.

*John 15: 1-5 Is of course part of the “Washing of the feet at the Last Supper” discourse… "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. [4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. ***[5] I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing"

“Abides In Me” means: knows, accepts and APPLLIES what I have taught. Christ teaching of the absolute need for Baptism is part of this knowledge.

1st. Cor. 6: 11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”

EACH and EVERY benefit listed here is attributrible to the EFFECTS of Baptism.

**Heb. 10:22 **“let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water”.

Yet another passage referencing the effects of Baptism. **… Acts.2: 38 **"And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”.

***I hope my friend this clarifies the issue for you?

I’m curious why do think John 3:5 has a meaning other than what it obviously means.***

This is from Protestant Matt. Henry’s Bible Commentary of this verse: "The regenerating work of the Holy Spirit is compared to water. It is also probable that Christ had reference to the ordinance of baptism. Not that all those, and those only, that are baptized, are saved; but without that new birth which is wrought by the Spirit, and signified by baptism, none shall be subjects of the kingdom of heaven. The same word signifies both the wind and the Spirit. The wind bloweth where it listeth for us; God directs it.

God Bless,
Pat**

 

[mackbrislawn]

So we are to assume that water here refers to baptism? I see how it is likely to understand that, but wouldn’t Jesus have used the term baptism?

Could it not be that water is used in the same text as: John 13:10; 15:3; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Hebrews 10:22.

Or,

Jesus did make reference to “Living Water” in John 4:10 and John 7:37-39.

Being born of water and spirit, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. After all, Jesus washed away our sins. I tend to view it in this light.

!Cor6:11 and Heb10:22 I believe refer to water baptism. John 13:10 seems to be a teaching on how water cleanses. Could 15:3 mean that the apostles weren’t baptized, but were clean nevertheless because of the word Jesus spoke to them? Just like the thief on the cross was clean because of the words Jesus spoke to him?

I like the rendering of 1Peter 3:21 as found in the RSV: “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as the removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” The NASB has “good conscience.”

I understand Peter to mean that you go into the waters of baptism not to bathe your body, but to bathe your conscience. Baptism is a prayer, an appeal to God to clear your conscience. And how do you know your appeal will be answered? Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I don’t think anyone would say we can enter the Kingdom of Heaven without having our sins forgiven. Everybody agrees on that. So, how do we have our sins forgiven? Peter answers that question at Acts 2:38, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

1Peter 3:21 repeats this idea, but goes into a little more detail as to the mechansim of how baptism works.

Faith saves us because if we have faith in Jesus we will do what Jesus asks–we will have our sins forgiven through the mechansim of baptism, and then we will follow and obey Him. Of course, if we don’t have faith in Jesus, we won’t do any of these things!

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Faith saves us because if we have faith in Jesus we will do what Jesus asks–we will have our sins forgiven through the mechansim of baptism, and then we will follow and obey Him. Of course, if we don’t have faith in Jesus, we won’t do any of these things!

Agreed, Faith being the driving force. Not baptism by itself but Faith by itself manifested through our Lord’s Grace. Everything else comes after Belief and Faith, including obedience.

 

[PJM]

=Isaiah45_9;8038028]Agreed, Faith being the driving force. Not baptism by itself but Faith by itself manifested through our Lord’s Grace. Everything else comes after Belief and Faith, including obedience.

My dear friend in Christ;

Believe as YOU choose… BUT,

Show me where in the Bible it say’s “Faith Alone” gets one salvation AND

I’ll show you TWO places where it say’s IT DOS NOT:thumbsup:

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[Isaiah45_9]

My dear friend in Christ;

Believe as YOU choose… BUT,

Show me where in the Bible it say’s “Faith Alone” gets one salvation AND

I’ll show you TWO places where it say’s IT DOS NOT:thumbsup:

God Bless you,
Pat

Pat,

I am well aware of:

James 1:22-25
James 2:14-19
Matthew 25:31-46
John 5:28-29
Luke 10:25-28
Romans 2:13
Romans 2:5-11

The biggest issue would be to look at what Faith is.

There is works without faith.

But how can there be no works with faith?
How can one claim to have faith in our Lord and not surrender the life given by Him to Him?
How can one believe and trust without letting the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit work in him?
The presence of Faith, the manifestation of Faith is but work.

Faith makes work.

Work is nothing without Faith.

God Bless you as well.

 

[jcrichton]

So we are to assume that water here refers to baptism? I see how it is likely to understand that, but wouldn’t Jesus have used the term baptism?

Could it not be that water is used in the same text as: John 13:10; 15:3; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Hebrews 10:22.

Or,

Jesus did make reference to “Living Water” in John 4:10 and John 7:37-39.

Being born of water and spirit, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. After all, Jesus washed away our sins. I tend to view it in this light.

…it could well mean anything at all; but is Jesus in the habit of confusing people or of being redundant? Would Living Water mean anything but the Holy Spirit? Would Jesus say 'must be born of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit (you know since the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Fahter and the Son)?

…anyone can claim anything; but when Jesus warns the religious elite that publicans (tax collectors) and prostitutes will enter into the Kingdom of Yahweh God and they will not due to their rejection of John the Baptist’s Baptism (which allows the publicans and prostitutes to undersdand Jesus and repent from their previous sinfull existence), there’s doubt that Baptism is necessary for Salvation–check out the Jehovah Witnesses play on words (Jesus is not God, He is merely a god or an angel or…); when the religious elite rely on word play they miss God’s Commandment… it is no better for non-religious elite to rely on word play rather than Scritural Teaching coming from the Mougth of Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Agreed, Faith being the driving force. Not baptism by itself but Faith by itself manifested through our Lord’s Grace. Everything else comes after Belief and Faith, including obedience.

…your problem is reading things into Scripture; here’s an excellent example of how it works:

46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 10:46-48a)

It is the very early Church that believes that Baptism is necessary for Salvation; even in the case where people are demonstrating the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, Baptism brings them into Fellowship with Christ and His Mystical Body!

Maran atha!

Angel