Congrigation fighting closing

[jcupach]

Here in Cleveland for the past couple of years we’ve been closing parishes due to low attendance/population. Our census was once 500,000 but we’ve dropped to about 300,000. A bishop (Law?) not familiar with the area came in and announced a list of closings. It caused a bit of an uproar because some of the parishes on the list were doing very well as far as attendance and such. We’ve closed many of the Catholic schools in the area. Some of the parishes that were staled to close still had schools open with high student enrollment.

So one of the parishes closed was St. Peter’s in downtown Cleveland. The parishioners rented a store front and continued to have masses. The priest of that parish went with them. The bishop threatened them with excommunication.

I don’t know what to think about this. There was a committee that reviewed the parishes and had recommendations, but this out of town bishop pretty much ignored them. I understand completely that closing some churches was necessary. Cleveland is turning into a ghost town. I kind of feel this bishop made changes without really looking into things.

So, can a bishop excommunicate people? I thought that was something only a Pope could do. If it does come to that I think there’s going to be a lot of backlash. Are these people in the wrong fighting for their parish? Can a bishop be techniquely wrong? And if so would the excommunication stick?

Off topic, but a the closing masses the bishop ‘runs’ the mass. It’s kind of insulting. I think the pastor should have the right to close his church.

 

[puzzleannie]

please link a news story
this began over two years ago
Bishop Lennon is entirely familiar with the Diocese and studied the situation with advisors before making the decisions
he did not ignore (name removed by moderator)ut and recommendations, he actively solicited them
he is not “an ignorant out of town bishop” he is the bishop of Cleveland appointed by the Vatican
every parish on the list was given the chance to rebut the decision and show cause why they should remain open
most of those protesting did not take advantage of that time and are now protesting after the facts

most of your facts are wrong or incomplete
why not review the past stories on the diocesan and Plain Dealer websites and get the actual background before criticism
and please find a recent news story about a parish like St. Peters that is still protesting for this forum

what you or I think is irrelevant. Church law governs this situation. Yes if the people of St Peters choose to defy the bishop and hold illicit Masses they can be excommunicated.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

Either you are not a Catholic yourself, or you are totally and completely ignorant of your own church.

I suspect that this is another of the “troll” topic, designed to create conflict.

If you do not agree with the decisions of the Bishop of your Diocese, you have the right to appeal those decisions to the Vatican. They HAVE overturned some local bishops decisions to close parishes.

 

[CB_Catholic]

This is not just going on in the Cleveland Diocese. It is going on all over the country. It is going on right now in my Diocese. Parishes are merging, closing, etc. A lot of people are upset. But the Bishop has the responsibility of seeing that all the people of a Diocese are being served, not just a few. He has to allocate the resources (priests, money, buildings etc.) in the best way possible.

I’ve somewhat followed what the Cleveland Diocese is doing because my mother is in that Diocese and I was married in it, and my Diocese is the next one over. As Puzzleannie said, this is a long process and the Bishop has been meeting with people, listening to them, etc. His decisions are not arbitrary. In my Diocese there have been meetings with parishes for over a year. The reconfiguration has been addressed in every edition of the Diocesan paper and addressed in the pulpit. But people still make accusations and spread rumors, etc. And there is actual infighting among parishes. Not very Christian behavior.

I would hate to be a Bishop in that situation right now. But things are what they are and they can’t be ignored, and nobody can please everyone.

 

[Dale_M]

So, can a bishop excommunicate people? I thought that was something only a Pope could do.

Yes, a bishop has the power to excommunicate.
ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=481429&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=

However, most excommunications are passive, being an automatic penalty due to the breaking of Church laws. The more formal type of excommunication is what most people think of, but it is rarely used. For example, the Arizona sister who was excommunicated because she authorized an abortion in a Catholic hospital received an automatic excommunication. Essentially, it was a penalty she inflicted on herself, although the bishop did confirm that the excommunication was incurred.

 

[JRKH]

Either you are not a Catholic yourself, or you are totally and completely ignorant of your own church.

I suspect that this is another of the “troll” topic, designed to create conflict.

Well…I rather doubt that this is a “troll” topic, but I do agree that the person is quite uninfomred about how the Church operates…But then that is what CAF is here for - to answer questions, even if they are expressed with a lot of frustration…

If you do not agree with the decisions of the Bishop of your Diocese, you have the right to appeal those decisions to the Vatican. They HAVE overturned some local bishops decisions to close parishes.

To the OP,
The above, along with the comments that Puzzleannie made is the best advice.

Things you can and should understand…
First - Understand that these are tough decisions and there will always be those who are upset regardless of the decisions that the bishop makes.
Second - Inform yourself as best you can, but recognize that it is the bishop’s responsibility and that we, as leypersons have an obligation to accept the bishop’s decision in humility.
Third - The local communities DO have the right to fight for their parish, but it must be done within the structure of the church. If there is true need for the masses in the rented building, perhaps something can be arranged. However it appears this may not be the case…
Fourth - The best way to get over these things is, instead of fighting the bishop, to accept, adjust and move on. Such changes have occurred in the past and will continue to occur in the future.
Fifth - If we really wish to see fewer closings what is needed are 1) more vocations to both the priesthood and religious life and 2) a real willingness on the part of all Catholics to sacrifice for their parish and diocese that will be manifested both in volunteer work and in 3) greater financial support.

Finally - instead of being angry with your bishop, pray for him. Pray for all involved in making these gut wrenching decisions.

Peace
James

 

[edowitz1]

Roman Catholic Doctrine Vs. The Doctrinal Teaching of the Word of God

Eternal life is a merited reward [1821, 2010]. - Roman Catholicism
Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 6:23)

No one can know if he will attain eternal life [1036, 2005] - Roman Catholicism
The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God (1 John 5:13)

The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation [846]. - Roman Catholicism
There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, “for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)

Purgatory is necessary to atone for sin and clean the soul [1030-1031]. - Roman Catholicism
Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross (Hebrews 1:3)

Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception (the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception) [490-492].
Mary, a descendant of Adam, was born in sin (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12)

Mary is the Mother of the Church [963, 975]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus ( John 2:1)

The Magisterium is the authoritative teacher of the Church. [85-87]. - Roman Catholicism
The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the church (John 14:26; John 16:13, I John 2:27)

The pope, as the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter [882, 936] - Roman Catholicism
Peter had no successor, nor was he a pope.

The pope is infallible in his authoritative teaching [891]. - Roman Catholicism
God alone is infallible (Numbers 23:19)

Scripture and Tradition together are the Word of God [81, 85, 97, 182]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35, 2 Timothy 3:15-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21). Tradition is the words of men (Mark 7:1-13).

The sacrificial work of redemption is continually carried out through the Sacrifice of the Mass. [1364,1405, 1846]. - Roman Catholicism
The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross (Ephesians 1:7, Hebrews 1:3).

God desires that consecrated bread and wine be worshiped as divine. [1378-1381] - Roman Catholicism
God forbids the worship of any object, even t hose intended to represent Him (Exodus 20:4-5, Isaiah 42:8)

Justification is lost through mortal sin [1033, 1855, 1874] - Roman Catholicism
Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:8-9).

Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392, 2010] - Roman Catholicism
Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete (Colossians 2:10).

Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments [183, 1129, 1815, 2002]. - Roman Catholicism
Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation (Ephesians 2:10).

Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life [411, 493]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was a sinner; God alone is sinless (Luke 18:19, Romans 3:23, Revelation 15:4).

Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ [496-511]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:25). Later she had other children (Matthew 13:55-56, Psalm 69:8).

Each Sacrifice of the Mass appeases God’s wrath against sin [1371, 1414]. - Roman Catholicism
The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God’s wrath against sin. (Hebrews 10:12-18).

The Bishops, with the Pope, as their head, rule the universal church. [883, 894-896]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ, the head of the body is the Head of the Church. (Colossians 1:18).

The faithful receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure through the Sacrifice of the Mass [1366, 1407]. - Roman Catholicism
Believers receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure in Christ through faith (Ephesians 1:3-14).

God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and Earth [966]. She is to be praised with special devotion [971, 2675]. - Roman Catholicism
The name of the Lord is to be praised, for He alone is exalted above heaven and earth (Psalm 148:13). God commands, “You shall have no other gods before Me.” (Exodus 20:3).

Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions 9 968-970, 2677] - Roman Catholicism
Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions (1 Timothy 2:5, John 14:13-14, 1 Peter 5:7).

Mary is the co-redeemer, for she participate with Christ in the painful act of redemption [618, 964, 968, 970]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ alone is the Redeemer, for He alone suffered and died for sin (1 Peter 1:18-19).

The sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the Sacrifice of the Mass [1323, 1382] - Roman Catholicism
The Sacrifice of the cross is finished (John 19:30).

Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment [1471-1473]. - Roman Catholicism
Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood. (Revelation 1:5).

The Magisterium has the right to define truth found only obscurely or implicitly in revelation. [66, 88, 2035, 2051]. - Roman Catholicism
No one has the right to go beyond what is written in Scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6, Proverbs 30:5-6).

Scripture and Tradition together are the Church’s supreme role of faith [80, 82]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the church’s rule of faith (Mark 7:7-13, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

 

[jcupach]

The only reason this was on my mind was because our local paper had a front page story about a church in Rochester that split from the Church. I don’t know how to do links but the paper’s site is cleveland.com if you want to check it out. The situations are nowhere being close to each other that I wonder why they even wrote the article.

What did I get wrong? I know the census numbers aren’t exact but we have lost a ton of people. Originally St. Ignatius was one of the parishes to be closed. This parish is still running a school. The masses are packed. It’s a very strong community. Why would you want to close this parish? Why would you even consider it? Eventually he changed his mind and kept it open but it boggles my mind that St. Ignatius would come close to being closed.

The parish I grew up with closed. It was Sts. Philip and James which is about a mile south of St. Ignatius. I completely understand why it was closed. The school closed years ago. There were very little parishoners left. And it would be easy for St. Ignatius to absorb those members.

 

[puzzleannie]

The only reason this was on my mind was because our local paper had a front page story about a church in Rochester that split from the Church. I don’t know how to do links but the paper’s site is cleveland.com if you want to check it out. The situations are nowhere being close to each other that I wonder why they even wrote the article.

s.

forum rules for this one require a link to a news story, please find the PD or other story and link it, the recent story, that is

there are all kinds of reasons besides number of active parishioners, school etc. not the least in the case of close-in older parish plants like St. Ignatius and St. Peter the age and physical condition of the buildings, anticipated cost to maintain and keep them running, changing demographics in the area, needs of the surrounding area and the diocese as a whole. The PD did a several-part series around the time the final choices for closings and mergers were announced and went into a lot of those reasons. The diocese has been very transparent about the reasons for the choices, but, quite correctly, the bishop refuses to negotiate with parishioners who are defying his authority.

 

[Dale_M]

The only reason this was on my mind was because our local paper had a front page story about a church in Rochester that split from the Church. I don’t know how to do links but the paper’s site is cleveland.com if you want to check it out.

Yes, the Cleveland Plain-Dealer, in the absence of news directly relating to the St. Peter’s situation has run a couple tangential stories.

I think this is the story you are referring to:

Breakaway Catholic flock flourishing in New York
cleveland.com/religion/index.ssf/2011/04/breakaway_catholic_flock_flour.html

BTW, to post a link here just copy and paste in the URL from your browser’s address bar.