Conscience question re. forum rules forbidding posting any thing "threatening...likely to offend...or otherwise violates any laws"

Saved2Serve

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I consented to the Terms before registering, but I must ask how can one post much of anything Biblical, or subject to debate, or opinionated if some of the broad subjective terms the standard user terms that this site employs is to be taken literally?

"You agree to not use the Service to submit or link to any Content which is defamatory, abusive, hateful, threatening, spam or spam-like, likely to offend, contains adult or objectionable content, contains personal information of others, risks copyright infringement, encourages unlawful activity, or otherwise violates any laws."

I understand proscription against ad hominem attacks, spam, porn, etc. but what Biblical truths or interpretation of them is not seen as threatening (fornicators will have their place in the Lake of Fire) or likely to offend others ("the bread and wine in the Lord's supper are representative, not literal"), while stating that Muhammad is a false prophet is certainly violates of some laws in some places. And disagreeing with some adulation of blessed Mary can be taken as "hateful" by defenders of the same.

One can respond by saying that should not be so scrupulous as to take such terms too strictly, and or that you are not expected to know what such terms mean, except to be cited for such.

I say a thread on the Bahai faith (but it ended due to going beyond the limit) by providing a link substantively exposing it, but that itself could be censured as likely to offend.

(And sorry for the html in my signature: I did not know my copied html would show, I since changed it to plain text, but that did change the rendering of the below. Nor can I find any way to delete this post.)
 
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This is a Catholic forum, and non-Catholics (or formerly practicing Catholics who have discerned another path) are welcome to participate, but this forum exists to advance the Catholic Faith, not to call it into doubt. Affirming such things as the mortal sinfulness (and its consequences) of fornication (or of any other such sin), or demonstrating the errors of Islam (or of any other non-Catholic religion), are not hateful as this forum understands them, provided that the language is temperate and does not attack those who indulge in mortal sins or embrace errors. That's about the best way I know to describe it.

I will see what I can do about deleting the URLs you cited.

Looking foward to your good participation.
 
Thanks Homeschooldad. As re. "...as this forum understands them," that is what I referred to as knowing the meaning of proscriptions by how they are applied in practice, which should leave the informed scrupulous consenter to these terms to be reluctant to consent to such broad, subjective language, though they do not seek to engage in unChrist-like "hateful" rhetoric,
 
Thanks Homeschooldad. As re. "...as this forum understands them," that is what I referred to as knowing the meaning of proscriptions by how they are applied in practice, which should leave the informed scrupulous consenter to these terms to be reluctant to consent to such broad, subjective language, though they do not seek to engage in unChrist-like "hateful" rhetoric,

I'm still not really clear what you're getting at, but suffice it to say that civil, respectful discussion, such as you engage in, is entirely appropriate for this forum. Thank you for your participation.
 
Thanks Homeschooldad. As re. "...as this forum understands them," that is what I referred to as knowing the meaning of proscriptions by how they are applied in practice, which should leave the informed scrupulous consenter to these terms to be reluctant to consent to such broad, subjective language, though they do not seek to engage in unChrist-like "hateful" rhetoric,
It seems clear that you claim to be Christian. For several reasons, it is also apparent that you believe that God personally sent you to convert others. Likewise, it seems clear that you have been told that Catholics are not Christian; are idolaters and quite possibly Pagan. This is 100% incorrect. With patience, we will be delighted to explain.

If you want to have charitable, meek and humble Christian conversation, WELCOME! Tips for forum survival (all forums):

1. Humility - the sign of a Christian 2. Questioning others' beliefs, as opposed to judging or condemning - especially when one does not know those beliefs. 3. Avoiding accusation, as that is the evil one's milieu (Rev. 12:10) 4. Not assuming that self is correct and others, by default, are wrong. 5. Bearing in mind that the essentially identical Eastern Orthodox as well as Catholic beliefs trace in an unbroken line to the Apostles. 6. The realization that Christianity was NOT founded on the bible. 7. Agreeing that Christ specifically founded a Church. 8. Realizing that many of us here are converts to the Catholic faith and thus know what we left (and why) as well as what we fully embrace.

So, ask away!
 
It seems clear that you claim to be Christian. For several reasons, it is also apparent that you believe that God personally sent you to convert others. Likewise, it seems clear that you have been told that Catholics are not Christian; are idolaters and quite possibly Pagan. This is 100% incorrect. With patience, we will be delighted to explain.

If you want to have charitable, meek and humble Christian conversation, WELCOME! Tips for forum survival (all forums):

1. Humility - the sign of a Christian 2. Questioning others' beliefs, as opposed to judging or condemning - especially when one does not know those beliefs. 3. Avoiding accusation, as that is the evil one's milieu (Rev. 12:10) 4. Not assuming that self is correct and others, by default, are wrong. 5. Bearing in mind that the essentially identical Eastern Orthodox as well as Catholic beliefs trace in an unbroken line to the Apostles. 6. The realization that Christianity was NOT founded on the bible. 7. Agreeing that Christ specifically founded a Church. 8. Realizing that many of us here are converts to the Catholic faith and thus know what we left (and why) as well as what we fully embrace.

So, ask away!
1. I certainly affirm humility is a sign of a Christian, and that "The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit" (Psalms 34:18) as describing those to believe on the Divine risen Lord Jesus, who saves sinners by His sinless shed blood.

2. As re "Questioning others' beliefs, as opposed to judging or condemning," while a controlling censorious spirit is to be avoided - which would include rejection of any debate - yet asserting or affirming any Truth amounts to judging and condemning any other that is at variance at it. For Truth is exclusive by nature, though sometimes actual contradictions are only imagined (esp. by antitheists).

3. As for accusation, this is wrong as in the calumny or hatred of the serpent, but it does not apply to accusations that a certain belief is wrong according to the supreme standard for Truth.

4. "Not assuming that self is correct and others, by default, are wrong," is indeed wrong, as the veracity of an argument must rest upon the degree of evidential warrant for it.

5. The assertion that "essentially identical Eastern Orthodox as well as Catholic beliefs trace in an unbroken line to the Apostles" in effect judges those who disagree (as me) as being in error. And it remains that both the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic church are separated based upon substantial disagreements, and with both claiming to uniquely be the One True Church.

6. Likewise the assertion "that Christianity was NOT founded on the bible" in effect judges those who disagree (as me) as being in error. While it is true that the whole Bible did not exist in the time of Christ, yet an authoritative body of wholly God-inspired writings had been manifestly established by the time of Christ as being "Scripture, ("in all the Scriptures") even the tripartite canon of the Law, the Prophets and The Writings, by which the Lord Jesus established His messiahship and ministry and opened the minds of the disciples to, who did the same . (Luke 24:27.44,45; Acts 17:2; 18:28, etc.)

For God manifestly made writing His most-reliable means of authoritative preservation. (Exodus 17:14; 34:1,27; Deuteronomy 10:4; 17:18; 27:3,8; 31:24; Joshua 1:8; 2 Chronicles 34:15, 18-19, 30-31; Psalm 19:7-11; 119; Isaiah 30:8; Jeremiah 30:2; Matthew 4:5-7; 22:29; Luke 24:44, 45; John 5:46, 47; John 20:31; Acts 17:2, 11; 18:28;

And thus I posit that Scripture came before the church, and provided the doctrinal and prophetic epistemological foundation for it.

Also that, while men such as the apostles could speak as wholly inspired of God and also provide new public revelation thereby (in conflation with what had been written), neither popes and councils can or do claim to do so. Thus the written word is the assured infallible word of God.

Moreover, I disagree with the argument that concurring with conciliar judgment as to what constitutes Scripture warrants the premise that one should submit to all other judgments of the same, or else 1st century souls should have done so to all the judgments of those who sat in the seat of Moses Mt. 23:2) the historical magisterial judges and stewards of divine revelation over the people of God. (Rm. 3:2; 9:4)

7. It is certain that that Christ founded a Church, based upon the above, but which I find that the only one true church is the body of Christ (Colossians 1:18) to which He is married, (Ephesians 5:25) being the "household of faith," (Galatians 6:10) for it uniquely only and always consists 100% of true believers.

And which spiritual body of Christ is what the Spirit baptizes every believer into, (1Co. 12:13) as "living stones" in this "spiritual house," (1 Peter 2:5differences, ) while organic fellowships in which they express their faith inevitably become admixtures of wheat and tares. And yet, despite the unique fellowship of the Spirit (Philippians 2:1) based upon conversion and salvific Truth which can be greater than their differences, the unity of the prima NT church under very manifest men of God (2 Co. 6:4-10) is a goal that at present, is sadly far from being realized (and Catholicism itself exists in a substantially fractious state) .

8. I do indeed recognize that many here are converts to the Catholic faith and thus know what they left (and why) as well as what they fully embrace, but that as one with the opposite trajectory, who knows what and why I left as well as what I fully embrace, offer an opportunity for respectful challenge and dialogue, if that is allowed.
 
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1. I certainly affirm humility is a sign of a Christian, and that "The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit" (Psalms 34:18) as describing those to believe on the Divine risen Lord Jesus, who saves sinners by His sinless shed blood.

2. As re "Questioning others' beliefs, as opposed to judging or condemning," while a controlling censorious spirit is to be avoided - which would include rejection of any debate - yet asserting or affirming any Truth amounts to judging and condemning any other that is at variance at it. For Truth is exclusive by nature, though sometimes actual contradictions are only imagined (esp. by antitheists).

3. As for accusation, this is wrong as in the calumny or hatred of the serpent, but it does not apply to accusations that a certain belief is wrong according to the supreme standard for Truth.

4. "Not assuming that self is correct and others, by default, are wrong," is indeed wrong, as the veracity of an argument must rest upon the degree of evidential warrant for it.

5. The assertion that "essentially identical Eastern Orthodox as well as Catholic beliefs trace in an unbroken line to the Apostles" in effect judges those who disagree (as me) as being in error. And it remains that both the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic church are separated based upon substantial disagreements, and with both claiming to uniquely be the One True Church.

6. Likewise the assertion "that Christianity was NOT founded on the bible" in effect judges those who disagree (as me) as being in error. While it is true that the whole Bible did not exist in the time of Christ, yet an authoritative body of wholly God-inspired writings had been manifestly established by the time of Christ as being "Scripture, ("in all the Scriptures") even the tripartite canon of the Law, the Prophets and The Writings, by which the Lord Jesus established His messiahship and ministry and opened the minds of the disciples to, who did the same . (Luke 24:27.44,45; Acts 17:2; 18:28, etc.)

For God manifestly made writing His most-reliable means of authoritative preservation. (Exodus 17:14; 34:1,27; Deuteronomy 10:4; 17:18; 27:3,8; 31:24; Joshua 1:8; 2 Chronicles 34:15, 18-19, 30-31; Psalm 19:7-11; 119; Isaiah 30:8; Jeremiah 30:2; Matthew 4:5-7; 22:29; Luke 24:44, 45; John 5:46, 47; John 20:31; Acts 17:2, 11; 18:28;

And thus I posit that Scripture came before the church, and provided the doctrinal and prophetic epistemological foundation for it.

Also that, while men such as the apostles could speak as wholly inspired of God and also provide new public revelation thereby (in conflation with what had been written), neither popes and councils can or do claim to do so. Thus the written word is the assured infallible word of God.

Moreover, I disagree with the argument that concurring with conciliar judgment as to what constitutes Scripture warrants the premise that one should submit to all other judgments of the same, or else 1st century souls should have done so to all the judgments of those who sat in the seat of Moses Mt. 23:2) the historical magisterial judges and stewards of divine revelation over the people of God. (Rm. 3:2; 9:4)

7. It is certain that that Christ founded a Church, based upon the above, but which I find that the only one true church is the body of Christ (Colossians 1:18) to which He is married, (Ephesians 5:25) being the "household of faith," (Galatians 6:10) for it uniquely only and always consists 100% of true believers.

And which spiritual body of Christ is what the Spirit baptizes every believer into, (1Co. 12:13) as "living stones" in this "spiritual house," (1 Peter 2:5differences, ) while organic fellowships in which they express their faith inevitably become admixtures of wheat and tares. And yet, despite the unique fellowship of the Spirit (Philippians 2:1) based upon conversion and salvific Truth which can be greater than their differences, the unity of the prima NT church under very manifest men of God (2 Co. 6:4-10) is a goal that at present, is sadly far from being realized (and Catholicism itself exists in a substantially fractious state) .

8. I do indeed recognize that many here are converts to the Catholic faith and thus know what they left (and why) as well as what they fully embrace, but that as one with the opposite trajectory, who knows what and why I left as well as what I fully embrace, offer an opportunity for respectful challenge and dialogue, if that is allowed.
If you ask me, you will soon be banned, as you have been banned elsewhere. You are bible alone, which was not taught by Christ or the Apostles He chose. NOTE: I do not question your faith of your zeal. I must condemn your bible alone theology, as it was authoritatively condemned as heresy 500 years ago by both Orthodox and Catholic Churches. So, it is known that your theology is condemned. where to go from here?
One cannot learn while speaking. Learning comes from listening, as Mary demonstrated to her sister Martha at Bethany.
Back to humility. It opens eyes and closes mouths.
Ask Catholics WHY they believe WHAT they believe.
 
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If you ask me, you will soon be banned, as you have been banned elsewhere. You are bible alone, which was not taught by Christ or the Apostles He chose. NOTE: I do not question your faith of your zeal. I must condemn your bible alone theology, as it was authoritatively condemned as heresy 500 years ago by both Orthodox and Catholic Churches. So, it is known that your theology is condemned. where to go from here?
One cannot learn while speaking. Learning comes from listening, as Mary demonstrated to her sister Martha at Bethany.
Back to humility. It opens eyes and closes mouths.
Ask Catholics WHY they believe WHAT they believe.
Actually, the correct description is "the word of God alone," and while that included men speaking as wholly inspired of God, yet in Catholic theology that is not what is claimed for the words of popes and ecumenical councils in defining a matter on faith or morals for the whole church, only that they are protected from error in a limited precise area. "God is not the author of a merely infallible, as He is of an inspired, utterance; the former remains a merely human document.(Catholic Encyclopedia > Infallibility: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm)

However, for the Catholic church, having infallibly declared itself to be conditionally infallible renders her declaration itself to be infallible, under which premise it is supposed that its condemnation of my theology has supreme weight. Yet this premise, that of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility, is a novel presumption that is nowhere seen or promised (despite extrapolative attempts) in the only wholly God inspired word of God.

Therefore, the answer as to "where to go from here?" is that of the only wholly God inspired word of God, by which the Lord and His disciples epistemologically validated their ministry and message to the stewards of the word of God.

And yet I am hardly ignorant of what Catholics believe, and are to, yet it is not I who resists learning more about the position of others here.

As for being banned, while you have condemned what I believe, but not by an sustainable argument, what you further said is valid, that "one cannot learn while speaking. Learning comes from listening, as Mary demonstrated to her sister Martha at Bethany," in hearing the wholly God-inspired words of the Lord Jesus.
 
Christ declared His Church to be infallible. Christ gave it all authority on earth and in heaven. The Church is the first and highest authority. If someone refuses to listen, even to the Church, we are to treat him as a Pagan or tax collector.
Yet, we are engaging you, even though you disbelieve the above.
 
Christ declared His Church to be infallible. Christ gave it all authority on earth and in heaven. The Church is the first and highest authority. If someone refuses to listen, even to the Church, we are to treat him as a Pagan or tax collector.
Yet, we are engaging you, even though you disbelieve the above.
Actually, you are simply asserting something you believe, because your church has asserted this, but which the assertion which simply does not make it true. In contrast, the Lord and His apostles established the validity of their claims, including to hostile audiences, even the historical magisterial powers, upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, by word, miracles and testimony. (2 Co. 6:4-10; (Mt.22:23-45; Lk.24:27, 44; Jn.5:36, 39; Acts2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rom. 15:19; 2Cor.12:12, etc.)

Contrary to this, as said, ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility is nowhere seen or promised in Scripture. The often-invoked (for support) Caiaphas does not example this, nor does the promise of Divine presence and guidance - which flowed from the OT - equate to or require this, nor uniquely apply to one organized church, nor does the promise of being led into all Truth. You must argue that it does.

Neither does Matthew 18:15-20; John 20:23 which also flows from the OT, in which a father or husband was given the power to bind or loose, (Numbers 30) as was the judiciary in matters of dispute (Dt. 17:8-13) to bind in guilt or loose in innocence (with dissent being a capital offence - authority does not convey or require ensured veracity), and which judicial binding/loosing in principal extends to civil powers today. (Romans 13:4)

Meanwhile, spiritual power to bind and loose is afforded to believers in union with God and each other (Matthew 18:19,20) , subject to His will.
And the understanding of the words of the gospels by the NT church are to be found in their application in Acts in the epistles. In which we see leadership being appeal to in order to settle a dispute, and with James providing the conclusive scripturally substantiated judgement, confirmatory of Peter's evangelical gospel (Acts 10:36-47) and testimony, and that of Paul and Barnabas. (Acts 15) Which, in principal is to apply to all jurisdictions.

However, nowhere do see the flock regularly coming to leadership in order to confess and be forgiven of sins (though as a matter of accountability this can be required). Nor does that take place in James 5:14, 16, where pastoral intercession - the prayer of faith - alleviates sickness (chastisement due to sin I surmise: cf. Mark 2:1-11) of the infirm. However, it is confession of sins to each other as part of the flock that is generally exhorted, that they also can be healed. And with correction of the wayward being the means of hiding a multitude of sins. (James 5:16-20) .

The above is a result of my familiarity with Catholics regarding "WHY they believe WHAT they believe" which you said I should inquire of.
 
If you ask me, you will soon be banned, as you have been banned elsewhere. You are bible alone, which was not taught by Christ or the Apostles He chose. NOTE: I do not question your faith of your zeal. I must condemn your bible alone theology, as it was authoritatively condemned as heresy 500 years ago by both Orthodox and Catholic Churches. So, it is known that your theology is condemned. where to go from here?
One cannot learn while speaking. Learning comes from listening, as Mary demonstrated to her sister Martha at Bethany.
Back to humility. It opens eyes and closes mouths.
Ask Catholics WHY they believe WHAT they believe.
I have no intention of banning this poster at this time. One either accepts the claims of the Catholic Church or one does not. Quite frankly, I find the writing style so dense and elliptical, that I can't make much of it, other than the typical Protestant claims of "Bible alone" and so on.

While I am not the ultimate authority on this forum --- I'm only a moderator --- and will defer to the wishes to those to whom this forum belongs, I am content to let the arguments against Catholicism to stand or fall on their own merits. As long as the discussion can stay civil and respectful, which IMO it has remained so far, I welcome defenders of the Faith and the Church to make whatever refutations they see fit.
 
I have no intention of banning this poster at this time. One either accepts the claims of the Catholic Church or one does not. Quite frankly, I find the writing style so dense and elliptical, that I can't make much of it, other than the typical Protestant claims of "Bible alone" and so on
Thanks for the critique.
 
Because it can be validly well substantiated, and evident thereby. What parts do you think need to be?

If you wish to interpret Scripture both according to its true meaning, and in accord with the Church and the ancient Fathers, look to the Haydock Bible. It's readily available for free online:

https://haydockcommentary.com/

Fun fact, I was watching Saturday Night Live some time back, and they were doing a sketch set in a pastor's office or similar place. On the shelf behind the people, there was a very distinctive-looking Bible propped up on the bookshelf, and sure enough, it was the Haydock Bible. Evidently someone either ran out to a used bookstore in Manhattan and got it for a prop, or they ordered it online from a distributor. It looks like this:

1726583487058.png

1726583510367.png
 
If you wish to interpret Scripture both according to its true meaning, and in accord with the Church and the ancient Fathers, look to the Haydock Bible. It's readily available for free online:

https://haydockcommentary.com/

Fun fact, I was watching Saturday Night Live some time back, and they were doing a sketch set in a pastor's office or similar place. On the shelf behind the people, there was a very distinctive-looking Bible propped up on the bookshelf, and sure enough, it was the Haydock Bible. Evidently someone either ran out to a used bookstore in Manhattan and got it for a prop, or they ordered it online from a distributor. It looks like this:

View attachment 242019

View attachment 242020
I certainly know of, have used/referenced Haydock commentary in quoting from Catholic sources, which I have bookmarked, besides THE NEW AMERICAN BIBLE, the Douay-Rheims Bible Online, and The New Jerusalem Bible, as well as the old Catholic Encyclopedia, among other RC sources, for Catholic sources is where I look for substantiation for Catholic teaching.

However, I have found that Catholics can engage in variant interpretations of such sources, and take issue with the translation of their official translation of the Bible for America, the NABRE and its previous version, and their required notes. Which they should, to be honest, esp. some of the commentary taught for decades in the Catholic Study Bible, St. Joseph edition.
 
If you wish to interpret Scripture both according to its true meaning, and in accord with the Church and the ancient Fathers, look to the Haydock Bible. It's readily available for free online:
https://haydockcommentary.com/
Yet many Catholics would disagree with its primary interpretation of Rv. 12 (as I do also):

Ver. 1. A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. By this woman, interpreters commonly understand the Church of Christ, shining with the light of faith, under the protection of the sun of justice, Jesus Christ. The moon, the Church, hath all changeable things of this world under her feet, the affections of the faithful being raised above them all. — A woman: the Church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady[the Virgin Mary].

The Church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet; and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions. (Challoner) — Under the figure of a woman and of a dragon, are represented the various attempts of Satan to undermine the Church. — On her head….twelve stars, her doctrine being delivered by the twelve apostles and their successors. (Witham)

Ver. 2. With child, &c., to signify that the Church, even in the time of persecutions, brought forth children to Christ. (Witham) — It likewise signifies the difficulties which obstructed the first propagation of Christianity. (Pastorini)..

Ver. 3. Another wonder in heaven; that is, in the Church of Christ, though revealed to St. John, in the visions, as if they were seen in heaven..

Ver. 6. The woman fled into the wilderness. The Church, in the times of persecutions,...

Ver. 14. There were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle...The Church, on account of the severe pressure of the persecution... (https://haydockcommentary.com/apocalypse-12)

The NAB notews state: 2 [1] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from ⇒ Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (⇒ Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (⇒ Rev 12:6, ⇒ 13-17); cf ⇒ Isaiah 50:1; ⇒ 66:7; ⇒ Jeremiah 50:12. This corresponds to a widespread myth throughout the ancient world that a goddess pregnant with a savior was pursued by a horrible monster; by miraculous intervention, she bore a son who then killed the monster. (https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P12V.HTM#$54O)

The Jerome Biblical Commentary (ed. Raymond E. Brown, Joseph A. Fitzmyer, Roland E. Murphy [Pontifical Biblical Commission,1972) stated, Most of the ancient commentators identified her with the Church; in the Middle Ages it was widely held that she represented Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Modern exegetes have generally adopted the older interpretation, with certain modifications. In recent years several Catholics have championed the Marian interpretation. Numerous contextual details, however, are ill-suited to such an explanation. (quoted in https://www.aomin.org/aoblog/roman-catholicism/brown-and-fitzmyer-vs-ray/)

Other Catholic interpretation (to which I concur in this case) includes Roman Catholic theologian Father Hubert J. Richards, who agrees that the Revelation 12 woman refers to Israel. In his book, “What The Spirit Says to the Churches: A Key to the Apocalypse of John,” (with Nihil obstat and Imprimatur). (http://www.eternal-productions.org/PDFS/Revelation12Woman.pdf)

There is more, but Google, being a degraded version of its former self, is not the help it used to be.
 
I certainly know of, have used/referenced Haydock commentary in quoting from Catholic sources, which I have bookmarked, besides THE NEW AMERICAN BIBLE, the Douay-Rheims Bible Online, and The New Jerusalem Bible, as well as the old Catholic Encyclopedia, among other RC sources, for Catholic sources is where I look for substantiation for Catholic teaching.

However, I have found that Catholics can engage in variant interpretations of such sources, and take issue with the translation of their official translation of the Bible for America, the NABRE and its previous version, and their required notes. Which they should, to be honest, esp. some of the commentary taught for decades in the Catholic Study Bible, St. Joseph edition.
If one relies on self and bible alone as a sole rule, that person directly opposes Christ, even as expressed in scripture. Questions for you to ponder, which bear directly on your salvation:

Did Christ found a Church. Yes or no?
Did Christ give that Church Divine Authority to bind or loose "whatever" on earth and in heaven? Yes or no?
Did Christ command that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. Yes or no?
Did Christ send Apostles, or writings? Which?

As I have been taught, those who claim Christ are well advised to ponder these basic and foundational questions. We here on earth, who sin and suffer are not yet saved, despite our protestations to the contrary. Salvation is realized only when we stand purified and perfected in the presence of God.

Equally, we are not saved by any simple proclamation or assumption, except by that of God-in-Christ at our judgment.

Biblical fact: Christians do not need a bible for salvation. The bible itself proves this. No Christian in the bible had a bible. Pleae explain this.

Many today demand that salvation is centered on the bible. This is near idolatry, as the bible does not save. Jesus Christ saves. The bible describes only a tiny fraction of His life and teachings. Revealed truth has demonstrsated for nearly 2,000 years that He did not found His Church on any writing, and especially writing as a "sole rule." Could He have? Of course! But He did not.

I can toss out thousands of verses, but they are meaningless if one, on its own authority, decides they are meaningless. By your own words, you hold to, and are promoting a new and innovative tradition in Christian belief. If you would be so kind, please justify this departure from long-settled doctrine.
 
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If one relies on self and bible alone as a sole rule, that person directly opposes Christ, even as expressed in scripture. Questions for you to ponder, which bear directly on your salvation:
"Self and bible alone as a sole rule" as representing SS (sola scriptura), means a fallible person looking to a wholly God-inspired - and thus infallible - substantive standard body of Truth as alone being the sure sufficient (in its material and formal senses)

Yet the Roman Catholic alternative is that of a fallible person relying on a source which is not wholly God-inspired and assuredly infallible, but has only presumed to assert that she (conditionally) is protected from error. Meaning that Rome has presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based criteria: pope or ecumenical in union w/ him defining a matter of faith and morals for the whole church). Which means that her declaration (Pastor Aeternus) itself that she is infallible, is infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares, past, present and future. She also essentially presumes protection from at least salvific error in non-infallible magisterial teaching on faith and morals.

You can attempt to argue that being a God-ordained authority which could conclusively settle disputes and require submission, being the judge on who and what is true and of God (both men and statements) and to bind and loose in that regard, requires ensured perpetual magisterial veracity (EPMV), yet as described, that is simply not what Scripture examples and teaches regarding this office.

And both men and writings of God were established as such before there was a church which presumed it was essential to know these.

Neither does the commission to teach nor the promise to progressively lead into all truth (which has been going on since Genesis, and will be fully realized with the resurrection of the elect: 1 Corinthians 13:12; 1 Jn. 3:2) require EPMV.

Moreover, simply because something is true does not make it to be equal to the inspired word of God with its power, (Heb. 4:12) and since neither popes nor councils in union with him speak or write as wholly inspired of God, which Scripture is, then it only is the sure, supreme substantive word of God and source and judge of Truth.

Neither was it any magisterium of men (though it be a valid office) that the Lord Himself used as His sword of Truth to defeat enemies and substantiate His claims, but that of Scripture, for as said, the NT church established its Truth claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, the Scriptures, (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27, 44; Jn. 5:36, 39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.) and God-inspired oral teaching, and miracles, the later of which Scripture validates as a attesting to Truth, but only as consistent with prior revelation.

Many today demand that salvation is centered on the bible. THis is near idolatry, as the bible does not save. JEsus Christ saves.
That is a form of an either/or false dilemma, a logical fallacy, since to believe the Bible is to believe the gospel, which is believe in the Lord Jesus of it.

The bible tells a tiny fraction of His life.
Indeed, (John 21:25) but rather than speaking of the need for oral revelation supplementing this, the same author points to writing for truth of salvation: Likewise, These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)

And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (John 20:30-31)

For God manifestly made writing His most-reliable means of authoritative preservation. (Exodus 17:14; 34:1,27; Deuteronomy 10:4; 17:18; 27:3,8; 31:24; Joshua 1:8; 2 Chronicles 34:15, 18-19, 30-31; Psalm 19:7-11; 119; Isaiah 30:8; Jeremiah 30:2; Matthew 4:5-7; 22:29; Luke 24:44, 45; John 5:46, 47; John 20:31; Acts 17:2, 11; 18:28; Revelation 1:1; 20:12, 15

Revealed truth has demonstrsated for nearly 2,000 years that He did not found His Church on any writing, and especially writing as a "sole rule."
To the contrary, it was Scripture which both preceded the church (do you deny this?) and provided the doctrinal and prophetic epistemological foundation for the NT church (do you deny this?), and by which the Lord substantiated His mission by, and opened the understanding of disciples to, and who invoked this in testifying to Christ and the gospel, while be able to speak (and write) as wholly inspired of God, and provide new revelation by, which your leadership does not! Do you deny this?

Meanwhile, so-called "revealed truth" has demonstrated the presumption of leadership to claim something which even history fails to evidence, as in the Assumption, (even as Ratzinger confessed), since she presumes (in the words of Cardinal Manning) "the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy...that the Church has no antiquity. It rests upon its own supernatural and perpetual consciousness." (“The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost: pp. 227-228)

I can toss out thousands of verses, but they are meaningless if one, on its own authority, decides they are meaningless.
Rather, it is not I who am claiming authority as if a "little pope," nor deeming any Scripture to be meaningless, for any claim by me to veracity must rest upon the weight of sound Scriptural substantiation. In contrast, it is your church which has presumed that she alone is the sure supreme authority, since Scripture, Tradition and history only authoritatively consists of and means what she says, and one cannot even know what the word of God consists of apart from faith in her.

If 1st century souls followed this logic, that the historical magisterium over God's people where to be followed in all her judgments, then they would not have been able to ascertain that John the baptizer was "a prophet indeed," (Mark 11:32) and followed an itinerant preacher whom the historical magisterium rejected.

. Questions for you to ponder, rwhich bear directly on your salvation: Did Christ found a Church. Yes or no?
Yes, into which the Spirit baptizes ever believer upon regeneration. (1 Co, 12:13) even if they have no organic church to go to yet. (Acts 8:35-40)

And the only one true church is the body of Christ (Colossians 1:18) to which He is married, (Ephesians 5:25) being the "household of faith," (Galatians 6:10) for it uniquely only and always consists 100% of true believers, and which spiritual body of Christ is what the Spirit baptizes every believer into, (1Co. 12:13) as "living stones" in this "spiritual house," (1 Peter 2:5) while organic fellowships in which they express their faith inevitably become admixtures of wheat and tares.

And with organic fellowships being what a believer to become part of, being baptized under water (if possible) as seen in Scripture, and which become increasingly diverse. (Rev. 2+3).

However, distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly God-inspired, substantive, authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels). Which includes its Peter, and gospel and Lord's supper. Therefore, based upon this, it has no valid claim to being the one true church.

More questions for you are, do you not rely on self and your church alone as a sole rule, since you made a fallible decision to trust in a church as being infallible, and the word of God only authoritatively consists of and means what is says it does?

“the believer cannot believe in the Bible nor find in it the object of his faith until he has previously made an act of faith in the intermediary authorities between the word of God and his reading.” (Catholic Encyclopedia>Tradition and Living Magisterium)

“People cannot discover the contents of revelation by their unaided powers of reason and observation. They have to be told by people who have received in from on high.” ( Cardinal Avery Dulles)

Catholic doctrine, as authoritatively proposed by the Church, should be held as the supreme law; (Providentissimus Deus)Pope Leo XIII)

How did souls know who and what was from God before your church presumed that she was essential to assuredly know such?

Did Christ give that Church Divine Authority to bind or loose "whatever" on earth and in heaven? Yes or no?

Yes, not just the collective church, but "Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven." (Mat 18:19)

Which is related to "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son". (John 14:13) "And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:" (1 John 5:14)

This broad provision is not restricted to church government, and is conditional upon "in my name," meaning according to his will, with proper motive, heart and faith.

As explained before, the Matthew 18:15-18 section contextually refers to judicial cases, which flows from the OT, in which the judgment of what was essentially the "supreme court" was binding, in guilt or innocence, or other issues, was binding, with dissent being a capital offense. (Deuteronomy 17:8-13) The closest application of this was Acts 15,

It certainly does not sanctify all that Catholicism has loosed upon the earth, including the decree that bound all Catholic rulers to exterminate/expel all heretics she pointed to, lest the faithful be no longer obligated to obey them. (canon 3, Ecumenical Fourth Lateran Council, 1215) Nor Protestant similar suppression.

Physically binding opposition is not what Mt. 18 sanctions.

Did Christ command that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. Yes or no?

Yes, and which refers to the gates of Hell not withstanding the body of Christ rescuing those falling into those gates. Which means is by effectual heart-purifying regenerating gospel faith in the Lord Jesus, (Acts 10:36-47; Acts15:7-9; Titus 3:5) and not that of salvation essentially being via perfection of character.

We on earth, who sin and suffer are not yet saved, despite protestations to the contrary. Salvation is realized only when on stands purified and perfected in the presence of God.

As regards final, full experiential salvation, that will be at the believer's resurrection, which is the only transformative postmortem experience the NT speaks of when clearly referring to the afterlife, which imperfect Paul looked forward to. Who at His coming,

"shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." (Philippians 3:21)

And the only place of conscious existence after this world is that of being with the Lord at His coming.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

However, Scripture plainly and repeatedly states that believers of gospel faith are presently "accepted in the Beloved," and positionally made to sit together with the Lord in Heaven, (Eph. 1:5; 2:6) having been forgiven all trespasses and translated into the kingdom of his dear Son, from where thy look for their Lord's return and their transformative resurrection. (Colossians 1:13; 2:13; Phil. 3:20)

In addition to what I wrote above, as being true believers, they are affirmed as presently possessing eternal life:

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)

And since one is saved by effectual justifying faith, which is evidenced by Spirit-led works of faith, (Rm. 8:14; Heb. 6:9,10; 1 Thessalonians 1:3-10) then Scripture warns believers against believing a false gospel based on merit via the Law, making Christ of no effect, to no profit, and of departing from the living God, thereby forfeiting what faith obtained. .(Gal. 5:1-4; Heb. 3:6; 10:25-34)

Biblical fact: Christians do not need a bible for salvation. The bible itself proves this. No Christian in the bible had a bible. Pleae explain this biblical fact.

What is there to explain? SS does not hold that having a Bible is essential for salvation, and SS preachers from long ago preached the gospel to souls who had none. SS holds that the Bibical contains what is necessary for salvation and obedience, and which sufficiency obviosly does not exclude teachers and study helps, etc. which Scripture materially provides. And whereby a soul may attain to saving knowledge, not that such assuredly will nor must have a Bible.

And also that "It belongeth to synods and councils, ministerially to determine controversies of faith, and cases of conscience; to set down rules and directions for the better ordering of the public worship of God, and government of his church; to receive complaints in cases of maladministration, and authoritatively to determine the same..." - The Westminster Confession of Faith (1647)

Hope this helps. Sorry it had to be so prolix.
 
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