Consciousness is primary hence it cannot be created

[Bahman]

Definition:

Consciousness is the essence of any being and has the ability to experience and affect mental states.

Free will is the ability to perform conscious/free decision in a given situation.

Arguments on why Consciousness is primary:

1. Assume that consciousness is not primary
2. This means that the situation define the outcome/decision
3. This means that consciousness is not necessary
4. This means that we are in prison of determinism
5. This is against God’s mercy
6. (1) is wrong
7. Assume that consciousness is not primary
8. This means that the situation define the outcome/decision
9. We however know we can make conscious/free decision
10. This means that (2) is wrong
11. This means that (1) is wrong

Arguments on why a consciousness cannot be create:

1. Consciousness is primary
2. Intellect is utility of consciousness
3. Act is utility of intellect
4. This means that it is impossible to know consciousness since intellect is utility of consciousness
5. This means that it is impossible to perform an act to create consciousness
6. Consciousness cannot be created

 

[blase6]

“Consciousness is the essence of any being and has the ability to experience and affect mental states.”

Tell me if a rock, as a being, has consciousness.

“Free will is the ability to perform conscious/free decision in a given situation.”

Circular definition. “Free will is the ability to do something freely”. Define “free”.

 

[Bahman]

“Consciousness is the essence of any being and has the ability to experience and affect mental states.”

Tell me if a rock, as a being, has consciousness.

Sure. Release a rock and see how it falls.

“Free will is the ability to perform conscious/free decision in a given situation.”

Circular definition. “Free will is the ability to do something freely”. Define “free”.

Free is equal to conscious as it was reflected above.

 

[blase6]

Sure. Release a rock and see how it falls.

Free is equal to conscious as it was reflected above.

Why does a rock falling mean that it has consciousness?

Why is free equal to consciousness? An animal is assumed to be conscious, but does not commit free actions.

 

[Bahman]

Why does a rock falling mean that it has consciousness?

Because it is aware of its situation (the potentiality to fall) and can act (to fall).

Why is free equal to consciousness?

Remove consciousness and you will be in trap of determinism (if it really exists). It is very consciousness/you that allows to act freely regardless of options offered to you by your intellect/brain

An animal is assumed to be conscious, but does not commit free actions.

That is not correct.

 

[Dtmccameron]

Because it is aware of its situation (the potentiality to fall) and can act (to fall).

You’re just trolling us, right?

Mmmm…yeah, so a rock is not “aware” of anything. Nor does the rock act. Forces of gravitation are constantly working upon the rock, and such circumstances allow the rock to fall, it will because of said forces, and not because it…chose to…

 

[blase6]

Because it is aware of its situation (the potentiality to fall) and can act (to fall).

Awareness involves knowing. A rock probably does not know that it is falling, because that requires a faculty of perception.

Remove consciousness and you will be in trap of determinism (if it really exists). It is very consciousness/you that allows to act freely regardless of options offered to you by your intellect/brain

Like I said, animals are most likely conscious without free action.

That is not correct.

Assertion without argument.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Definition:

Consciousness is the essence of any being and has the ability to experience and affect mental states.

Free will is the ability to perform conscious/free decision in a given situation.

Arguments on why Consciousness is primary:

1. Assume that consciousness is not primary
2. This means that the situation define the outcome/decision
3. This means that consciousness is not necessary
4. This means that we are in prison of determinism
5. This is against God’s mercy
6. (1) is wrong
7. Assume that consciousness is not primary
8. This means that the situation define the outcome/decision
9. We however know we can make conscious/free decision
10. This means that (2) is wrong
11. This means that (1) is wrong

Arguments on why a consciousness cannot be create:

1. Consciousness is primary
2. Intellect is utility of consciousness
3. Act is utility of intellect
4. This means that it is impossible to know consciousness since intellect is utility of consciousness
5. This means that it is impossible to perform an act to create consciousness
6. Consciousness cannot be created

I see your masters are busy again. But as always they are full of beans. This is not even worth discussing.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

You’re just trolling us, right?

Mmmm…yeah, so a rock is not “aware” of anything. Nor does the rock act. Forces of gravitation are constantly working upon the rock, and such circumstances allow the rock to fall, it will because of said forces, and not because it…chose to…

I am not trolling.

What is gravitational force?

By the way, do you have any objection to the argument?

 

[Bahman]

Awareness involves knowing. A rock probably does not know that it is falling, because that requires a faculty of perception.

A rock has a body, mass, hence it could perceive.

Like I said, animals are most likely conscious without free action.

What is the use of consciousness in your case?

Assertion without argument.

Prove the opposite.

 

[Bahman]

I see your masters are busy again. But as always they are full of beans. This is not even worth discussing.

Linus2nd

Come on, tell me where am I wrong!?

 

[blase6]

A rock has a body, mass, hence it could perceive.

No. Perception is at the conscious level. Matter in and of itself does not have consciousness.

What is the use of consciousness in your case?

God wanted his animals to have consciousness. I don’t know why else.

Prove the opposite.

Well, I have never seen an animal do something out of the ordinary. All they usually want to do is lie around, eat, drink, and mate. Do you think that they show evidence for freely chosen action?

 

[Bahman]

No. Perception is at the conscious level. Matter in and of itself does not have consciousness.

You are apparently came out of matter.

God wanted his animals to have consciousness. I don’t know why else.

What is the use of consciousness for you? I was not asking about animal.

Well, I have never seen an animal do something out of the ordinary. All they usually want to do is lie around, eat, drink, and mate. Do you think that they show evidence for freely chosen action?

And are we free when when we want to eat, drink or mate?

 

[blase6]

You are apparently came out of matter.

Whether or not my spiritual reality came from matter, matter by itself does not have consciousness.

What is the use of consciousness for you? I was not asking about animal.

Yeah, I don’t know what you mean.

And are we free when when we want to eat, drink or mate?

I don’t understand how it happens, but most people believe it without a problem.

 

[Bahman]

Whether or not my spiritual reality came from matter, matter by itself does not have consciousness.

So where your spiritually comes from if it didn’t come out of matter? You know all the science about matting, sperm, egg, etc.

Yeah, I don’t know what you mean.

Could you be free without consciousness. Suppose your consciousness is gone. What difference it makes?

I don’t understand how it happens, but most people believe it without a problem.

Most people believe on what? They believe that are free to eat, drink and mate?

 

[blase6]

So where your spiritually comes from if it didn’t come out of matter? You know all the science about matting, sperm, egg, etc.

God creates the spirit of the person for the body. How exactly it happens is a mystery and a topic of argument for theologians.

Could you be free without consciousness. Suppose your consciousness is gone. What difference it makes?

In that case one is not responsible for one’s actions. You are not morally culpable if you roll over in your sleep and crush somebody.

Most people believe on what? They believe that are free to eat, drink and mate?

Yes.

 

[Bahman]

God creates the spirit of the person for the body. How exactly it happens is a mystery and a topic of argument for theologians.

Lets put the story of rock apart and focus on the OP. What is your opinion about it?

In that case one is not responsible for one’s actions. You are not morally culpable if you roll over in your sleep and crush somebody.

So consciousness makes a difference? Could it grant freedom? I clearly remember that you once deduce that just one of the option is real hence we are not free. What is the point of having this illusion?

Yes.

So we a similar to animal when it comes to eating, drinking and matting? What make you think that they are not free considering that they are conscious.

 

[blase6]

Lets put the story of rock apart and focus on the OP. What is your opinion about it?

My opinion is that you are assuming that everyone knows what you mean by all the terms you use. Nobody understands your arguments because you won’t define your terms. In particular, you need to define “primary”, “outcome/decision”, “utility”, and “consciousness”.

So consciousness makes a difference? Could it grant freedom? I clearly remember that you once deduce that just one of the option is real hence we are not free. What is the point of having this illusion?

Consciousness does not necessitate freedom. If I can argue at some point against freedom in human beings, then that must be correct. Why can a creature not merely be conscious of itself without having choices?

So we a similar to animal when it comes to eating, drinking and matting? What make you think that they are not free considering that they are conscious.

Human beings are animals in the sense that we have a physical body. The belief is that we have a rational soul, and that is why we can make free choices, which mere animals cannot do. Animals do not show good evidence that we should believe they have freedom. We can only see that they operate from basic urges to live.

 

[Bahman]

My opinion is that you are assuming that everyone knows what you mean by all the terms you use. Nobody understands your arguments because you won’t define your terms. In particular, you need to define “primary”, “outcome/decision”, “utility”, and “consciousness”.

Well.

Consciousness does not necessitate freedom. If I can argue at some point against freedom in human beings, then that must be correct. Why can a creature not merely be conscious of itself without having choices?

I clearly remember that you mentioned that only one option among many is real since determinism rules. My question is what is the use of consciousness which only grant illusion?

Human beings are animals in the sense that we have a physical body. The belief is that we have a rational soul, and that is why we can make free choices, which mere animals cannot do. Animals do not show good evidence that we should believe they have freedom. We can only see that they operate from basic urges to live.

You don’t even believe in objective reality! How could you believe in soul?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

My opinion is that you are assuming that everyone knows what you mean by all the terms you use. Nobody understands your arguments because you won’t define your terms. In particular, you need to define “primary”, “outcome/decision”, “utility”, and “consciousness”.

Yes, consciousness. There seems to be many levels.
Humans, animals, how about plants and single cells?