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Michael_Mayo
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I like your thinking but you are not Catholic, are you?
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Bahman
Guest
Thank you. I am not a Catholic. Why did you think so?
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
Well, you fell right into the trap. Consciousness is not the essence of anything, let alone God. That notion is Dogmatically wrong and philosophically wrong. If we must speak of the essence of a subject we have to use correct terms, terms that the Catholic Church usses and/or Thomas Aquinas may have used.
All the Church says about God’s essence is that he is Simple, One, Spirit, Uncomposed, Eternal, Infinite, Unchanging, Perfect, Good, Almighty, All Knowing, Present everywhere, Creator, Full of Love, Merciful, Just, Living, entirely distinct and separate from all his creation etc. And all this descriptions or characteristics are identified with this One,Simple Spirit and are merely our different ways of looking at and describing his nature. Of himself, God says, " I Am Who Am.
Thomas Aquinas says God is Pure Subsistent Existence and all the characteristics above are merely different ways we have of describing his Existence.
And certainly God is self aware, is self conscious. But he is not consciousness itself, there is no such thing. Bahman is tooting the horn of Eastern cultism.
Linus2nd
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Bahman
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What is the point of all those omni when it cannot create consciousness. And I clearly showed that the definition Thomas from God is wrong in five threads.
And he is not right in the trap. He is a intellectual being and I hope that he is free. That is you who are deeply in the trap not realizing the fallacies of philosophy you are striving to. :bounce:
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Linusthe2nd
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Bahman
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Yeah, that is shown by the very fact that you cannot disproof my argument!You may be a great physicist but you are the world’s worst philosopher.
Linus2nd
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Michael_Mayo
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When you say consciousness is “primary” it sounds as though you are addressing the materialists who claim that consciousness arises as an emergent phenomena and has no existence until matter, through natural processes, reaches a critical level of complexity. (Epiphenominalism)
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Bahman
Guest
What I am arguing is that consciousness cannot be created by an agent so called God since God is a conscious being and omniscience is a utility of consciousness hence it cannot give rise to an stage to provide an answer to the question of what consciousness is. Hence, consciousness cannot be created either since omnipotence is utility of omniscience and what it is logically impossible to create an unknowable thing like consciousness.
Concerning what you claim, I believe that consciousness is in fact very simple opposite to general scientific view hence it cannot be a manifestation of natural processes which reaches a critical level of complexity. I have an argument for simplicity of consciousness:
- Assume that consciousness is not simple
- This means that consciousness is made of some parts
- The act experience is unitary
- This means that we cannot assign the experience to any of the parts since otherwise existence of other parts become unnecessary
- In another hand the whole, sum of parts, gets its essence from parts since it does not have any separate essence
- From (3) and (5) we can deduce that the whole cannot experience either since it doesn’t have any separate essence
- (5) and (6) means that (2) is wrong
- This means that (1) is wrong
- Hence consciousness is simple.
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
Warning, Bahman is wrong on all accounts. But he persists. Follow at your own risk.
Linus2nd
Linus2nd
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onenow1
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Bahman
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Where is my fallacy? I would be happy to know it.
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Bahman
Guest
Are you supporting his argument!?
God Bless
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
We have been all over that a hundred times. But here is the answer from a Catholic/Christian perspective.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
II. “BODY AND SOUL BUT TRULY ONE”
362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. the biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."229 Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.
363 In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human life or the entire human person.230 But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.
364 The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232
Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honour since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day 233
365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.
366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235
So from our perspective it is the human soul which is primary. And it is created immediately by God.
Linus2nd
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Bahman
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Any perspective stands four columns so called metaphysics (what is the truth), ontology (the difference between what is and what exist), epistemology (how we should know) and ethics (what is right and what is wrong). Any prespecitive is subject of threat once one of the above mentioned column is not well constructed.
I object. I have an argument against this. The very essence of us cannot be created. Please read the OP.
What is your definition of soul. I have a defition for consciousness which is very simple. I will through away the concept of consciousness if your definition of soul is simpler and self sufficient.
Who is Christ? That is you, me, Jesus, etc. No one can save you if you don’t want it. Am I wrong?
Hylemorphic dualism? I am aware of its problem. We can review them here if you wish.
You need to find an error in my reasoning otherwise you are wrong. Consciouses/soul cannot be created.
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Linusthe2nd
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We all know how wrong you are. I enclosed the last post for the benefit of innocent viewers so they will know exactly what the truth is - and that is not open to depate because God has Revealed it.
Linus2nd
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Bahman
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We all know how wrong you are. People who visit here are mostly adult and they don’t need your intervention to find the truth. So either I am wrong or you. The subject matter has to be immune to reason if it is the truth otherwise it is a false belief.
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Linusthe2nd
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Immune to reason? I think you better rethink that again. Anyway, your position is certainly " immune to reason, " because no reasonable person could ever accept it. I can’t think of a single person here who has ever agreed with you. Can you think of one?
Linus2nd
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onenow1
Guest
Indeed and then some !
The definition of ‘truth’ is ‘opposite of error’. Truth means it is conformable to fact. It is correct. Truth in action, is when the human conscience agrees with the intellect. Truth is ‘ONE’. There can be only one truth. Any variation in the one truth is not truth at all, but error. Pilot asked Jesus what is truth. Ans. silence.Jn 17:17-23
And as the great Greek philosopher Plato, proclaimed, the word ‘philodoxy’ was the opposite or antonym of the word philosophy. A philodoxer is a lover of opinion. Philosophy is a lover of wisdom.
“Teacher, we know that you are a truthful man and that you are not concerned with anyone’s opinion. You do not regard a person’s status but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth.”
Mark 12:14 (NAB)
God bless
Have you ever thought about eternity as compared to the life in this world?
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Bahman
Guest
Oh, well, if there is enough left to think.Indeed and then some !
The definition of ‘truth’ is ‘opposite of error’. Truth means it is conformable to fact. It is correct. Truth in action, is when the human conscience agrees with the intellect. Truth is ‘ONE’. There can be only one truth. Any variation in the one truth is not truth at all, but error. Pilot asked Jesus what is truth. Ans. silence.Jn 17:17-23
And as the great Greek philosopher Plato, proclaimed, the word ‘philodoxy’ was the opposite or antonym of the word philosophy. A philodoxer is a lover of opinion. Philosophy is a lover of wisdom.
“Teacher, we know that you are a truthful man and that you are not concerned with anyone’s opinion. You do not regard a person’s status but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth.”
Mark 12:14 (NAB)
God bless
Have you ever thought about eternity as compared to the life in this world?
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