Consciousness is primary hence it cannot be created

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Michael_Mayo said:
Yes, consciousness. There seems to be many levels.
Humans, animals, how about plants and single cells?
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Plants and single cells do show some movement. However it is usually a built-in automatic function, or mere simple response to stimuli, so those creatures are less likely to have consciousness.
 
Bahman said:
Well.
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Well. You should define your terms, else I won’t understand what you mean.
I clearly remember that you mentioned that only one option among many is real since determinism rules. My question is what is the use of consciousness which only grant illusion?
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Whether or not my argument is correct, you don’t need to know what the use of consciousness is. The thing is that it exists, whether or not you have freedom. God probably gave animals consciousness so that they would operate well at their level, and be able to experience animal pleasure.
You don’t even believe in objective reality! How could you believe in soul?
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I do believe in objective reality. I just don’t believe that it can be known for certain outside of one’s awareness.
 
Bahman said:
Well, consciousness is defined. The rest you can use a dictionary if you don’t know.
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“Consciousness is the essence of any being and has the ability to experience and affect mental states.”

Now define the minimum threshold of "mental’.
 
Bahman said:
Well, consciousness is defined. The rest you can use a dictionary if you don’t know.
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No. You as the one starting the argument have to define your terms. Philosophers are not known to rely on dictionaries.
 
Bahman said:
  1. Consciousness is primary
  2. Intellect is utility of consciousness
  3. Act is utility of intellect
  4. This means that it is impossible to know consciousness since intellect is utility of consciousness
  5. This means that it is impossible to perform an act to create consciousness
  6. Consciousness cannot be created
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If 1) and 6) are true then consciousness must have created God.

Which reminds me of a poster here who believed that God was created out of consciousness by dark energy, and tried to push it as a new religion. If memory serves, God apparently learned how to reverse entropy, which is how come he became God and went on to create the universe (the poster had taken physics but his understanding was, shall we say, a bit patchy).

So beware of all this “consciousness is primary” stuff, it should come with a health warning.
 
inocente said:
If 1) and 6) are true then consciousness must have created God.

Which reminds me of a poster here who believed that God was created out of consciousness by dark energy, and tried to push it as a new religion. If memory serves, God apparently learned how to reverse entropy, which is how come he became God and went on to create the universe (the poster had taken physics but his understanding was, shall we say, a bit patchy).

So beware of all this “consciousness is primary” stuff, it should come with a health warning.
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To put it mildly!

Linus2nd
 
inocente said:
If 1) and 6) are true then consciousness must have created God.
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That could make more sense if you change it slightly: consciousness must have created the concept of God.

Look at the chain of the concept of God back in history of human and find the person who created the concept of God. S/he must be thinking where s/he did come from then s/he suddenly look at the thing s/he had built and conclude that there must be something who had built us as well. In fact it made perfect sense. I call this linear way of thinking though. That is why my simple argument which is based on a good understanding of myself is serious threat.

By the way, what is wrong with my argument?
 
Bahman said:
Come on dude. Give a try and show that I am wrong. My argument is very plain and simple.
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Based on the many threads where you have been involved, there is no possible way that you will allow yourself to be shown wrong.

Your argument is plain, simple… and wrong.
 
davidv said:
Based on the many threads where you have been involved, there is no possible way that you will allow yourself to be shown wrong.

Your argument is plain, simple… and wrong.
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You don’t want to give it a try? An argument is wrong when it is shown, otherwise it stands.
 
Bahman said:
You don’t want to give it a try?
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Already have tried. After a while beating ones head against a wall hurts too much.
An argument is wrong when it is shown, otherwise it stands.
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Not when the argument is against the commonly accepted position. It is the arguers
case to make. If is not made the norm stands.
 
davidv said:
Already have tried. After a while beating ones head against a wall hurts too much.
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I would love the pain of knowing my mistake.
davidv said:
Not when the argument is against the commonly accepted position. It is the arguers
case to make. If is not made the norm stands.
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What is the commonly accepted position? They could be all wrong. :bounce:
 
Bahman said:
That could make more sense if you change it slightly: consciousness must have created the concept of God.

Look at the chain of the concept of God back in history of human and find the person who created the concept of God.
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Add that to your claims that “1) Consciousness is primary” and “6) Consciousness cannot be created” and it means that the person must have been eternally conscious. Her consciousness could not even have been created in the big bang, since you say consciousness cannot be created. But I know you’ll now change your argument yet again.

I said you reminded me of a poster here who believed that God was created out of consciousness and who tried to push it as a new religion.

The thing is, even his arguments made more sense than any of yours.
 
inocente said:
Add that to your claims that “1) Consciousness is primary” and “6) Consciousness cannot be created” and it means that the person must have been eternally conscious. Her consciousness could not even have been created in the big bang, since you say consciousness cannot be created. But I know you’ll now change your argument yet again.
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  1. Being eternal is one option (Buddhism make more sense than Christianity if you cannot refute my argument)
  2. Being an accident waiting to happen is the second option
  3. Being the result of something completely illogical is third option
    …
Why don’t you try to add one option to the above list?

I rather say wherever it may go right accepting something which doesn’t make sense.
inocente said:
I said you reminded me of a poster here who believed that God was created out of consciousness and who tried to push it as a new religion.
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Well, I heard that once. You told me.
inocente said:
The thing is, even his arguments made more sense than any of yours.
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S/he is apparently making a claim rather an argument. The difference is that you cannot disprove a claim but an argument.
 
Michael_Mayo said:
“Consciousness is the essence of any being and has the ability to experience and affect mental states.”

Now define the minimum threshold of "mental’.
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Then consciousness is the essence of God who by definition is primary.
Consciousness is not a thing so much as it is a quality, an attribute, a power or potential.
 
Michael_Mayo said:
Now you need to define God.

As we said, there are degrees or levels of consciousness.
Perhaps we share a tiny bit of God’s consciousness.
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Consciousness is simple hence it is not divisible. Awareness is what is important and make a difference between you, me, God and another person. At the end we are all same in the essence but different on the surface.
 
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