Consecration of Bread and Wine

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That is a good point that Constantine TG didn’t make clearly (since he wasn’t really addressing that aspect). As long as you have the proper matter and intent, the words of institution alone are both sufficient and necessary to achieve the proper form for transubstantiation. This is Church teaching as to the Latin rite Eucharistic Prayer. It follows that the same may be true as well for Eastern rites, although Eastern tradition does not identify a specific moment (right after the words of institution) when transubstantiation has taken place, and in at least one valid Eucharistic Prayer the words of institution are not explicit and so can’t be isolated from the rest of the prayer.
A question on the highlight, you said words alone are necessary and yet you also said “as long as you have proper matter and intent”. Then you just contradicted yourself. That was my point. Words alone is not enough, you also need proper matter and intent. JM is saying that words alone are necessary, that if the priest spoke those words even though he didn’t intend to consecrate the bread he is holding, then it still becomes the Body of Christ. Form + Matter + Intent. You need all three, not just one or two.
 
That means that the only necessary words are the words of consecration. You don’t need to say, for example, “On the night he was betrayed, he took bread…”
On another note, there is a theological debate whether the Epiklesis is needed as a bare minimum to consecrate the bread. Some would say “this is my body,” and “this is the cup of my blood,” is all that is needed. Others say the Epiklesis should always accompany the Anaphora.
 
A question on the highlight…
JM3 didn’t really explain what he was trying to say with his post, so I took the view that he correctly agreed with you and was merely trying to clarify a minor point, which I then elaborated on.
 
JM3 didn’t really explain what he was trying to say with his post, so I took the view that he correctly agreed with you and was merely trying to clarify a minor point, which I then elaborated on.
The discussion began when I expounded on the OP’s question and then asked if a priest held up two pieces of hosts stuck together, but him knowing there to be only one host, would both hosts be consecrated given he intends to consecrate only one host. His contention was that saying the words and holding up the host would consecrate the bread. I’m saying that just saying the words won’t since he isn’t intending to consecrate bread he isn’t even aware that is there.
 
The key here is that the priest does not have a contrary intent. He may be thinking “Nothing’s going to happen, but I guess I’ll go through the motions again to keep the paycheck coming.” Despite his lack of belief in what the Church teaches will result from the actions, by the fact that he agrees to go through the consecration shows that in a minimal way he intends to do what the Church intends.I think this will depend on exactly what intent the priest has. If he is specifically intending to consecrate only the single host he sees in his hand, then all else would not be consecrated. If he intends to consecrate what is in front of him, but excluding the hosts on the end of the altar, then the second host would be consecrated. I suspect the second is more likely, and in the absence of a specific intent to exclude, any hosts in the usual area (the top of the altar) would be consecrated.We have discussed this in several other threads, and never has anyone produced any evidence that validity of consecration is dependent on being in a mass.Intent here follows the same rules as I mentioned earlier. As mentioned by another poster above, even an atheist can baptize. Obviously he wouldn’t believe in the trinity, but the fact that he is uttering what he considers a superstitious incantation shows that he intends to do what the Church intends.
You are mistaken for an atheist cannot make a valid baptism. For example: Mormons baptize and use the same words as we do, however, because they do not believe in the same God as we do, their baptisms are invalid. The Church has deemed so, and that is why they are called “pseudo-Christians”. The Church does not recognize their baptisms as valid.

And in order for a host to be consecrated it MUST be within the context of the Mass. Check the facts.

And I repeat, intent when consecrating the host does not matter so long as the proper words of consecration are being followed by a validly ordained Priest.
 
What do you mean by “traditional words of consecration”. There is a formula to the words, but they are not meant to be exact word-for-word the same everywhere. Each tradition has a slightly different way of saying the words.

Also, its not magic hocus pocus. Saying the words alone does not make a Sacrament. As I have said, there are three things that make a Sacrament valid:
  1. matter - the correct external/physical sign. ex. wheat bread and grape wine for the Eucharist, water for Baptism, Sacred Chrism for confirmation, etc.
  2. form - proper words spoken by the proper minister(s). A lay person cannot consecrate the Eucharist, two men cannot get married. You cannot make a marriage vow “for as long as I love”. It should be “for as long as I live.” And you cannot baptize in the Name of Jesus only, or substitute the names of the Trinity for something else.
  3. intent - to do as the Church wills with the Sacrament.
Like I mentioned, the three things needed for a valid Sacrament. The Bible, cloth, microphone, etc. are not valid matter. They can never be transubstiantiated.

I already told you what is needed for a valid Sacrament. I too am a Catechist, trust me, I know what I’m saying.

The Eucharist can be consecrated outside of Mass, but the Church forbids it. Notice the Church has no power to say it cannot happen outside of Mass, but rather as a discipline forbids anyone under any circumstances to do it. Sacraments can be confected outside the proper rite. This is the illicit vs. invalid discussion. A Sacrament can still be valid even though its illicit. But illicit can carry penalties.

No, the belief in the Trinity is not important. An atheist can Baptize, or a heretic (and some heretics do not believe in the Trinity). They do not need faith, only to do what the Church intends for baptism. It means they should intend the person to be baptized in Christ, even though if it means to them just doing a favor for that person.

It is the Lord who acts in all Sacraments, not just the Eucharist. In fact, it is the Holy Spirit that changes the bread and wine, that is why we have the Epiklesis together with the Anaphora.

But what happened in Lanciano is not transubstantiation. It wasn’t the Eucharist because the accidents were changed as well.

Intent is different from doubt. Intent is doing what the Church wills, even if you don’t believe it, even if you don’t agree with it. Doubt has to do with faith. They are not the same thing.
You have not carefully read what I wrote - you mostly repeated what I have said, except that we disagree on the miracle of Lanciano. It was transubstantiation. The Bread WAS changed, when it was consecrated!!

And please don’t put words in my mouth – I have not mentioned the consecration and proper words of consecration as being “hocus pocus or magic”. Please don’t insult me by twisting words and inserting your own where I have not even come close to saying that.

As for atheists validly baptizing – not so. I have already explained in the above post why this is not. The Church also does not recognize baptisms that are invalid no matter the intent, otherwise, Mormoms and JW’s would be accepted as Christians, yet the Church has declared them as “pseudo-christians” and does not recognize their baptisms.
 
V. Who can Baptize?1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57In case of necessity, any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize, if he has the required intention. the intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes, and to apply the Trinitarian baptismal formula. the Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.58
the catechism disagrees
 
P.S. from the Catholic Encyclopedia

The sacramental form or the words of consecration

In proceeding to verify the form, which is always made up of words, we may start from the dubitable fact, that Christ did not consecrate by the mere fiat of His omnipotence, which found no expression in articulate utterance, but by pronouncing the words of Institution: “This is my body . . . this is my blood”, and that by the addition: “Do this for a commemoration of me”, He commanded the Apostles to follow His example. Were the words of Institution a mere declarative utterance of the conversion, which might have taken place in the “benediction” unannounced and articulately unexpressed, the Apostles and their successors would, according to Christ’s example and mandate, have been obliged to consecrate in this mute manner also, a consequence which is altogether at variance with the deposit of faith. It is true, that Pope Innocent III (De Sacro altaris myst., IV, vi) before his elevation to the pontificate did hold the opinion, which later theologians branded as “temerarious”, that Christ consecrated without words by means of the mere “benediction”. Not many theologians, however, followed him in this regard, among the few being Ambrose Catharinus, Cheffontaines, and Hoppe, by far the greater number preferring to stand by the unanimous testimony of the Fathers. Meanwhile,** Innocent III also insisted most urgently that at least in the case of the celebrating priest, the words of Institution were prescribed as the sacramental form**. It was, moreover, not until its comparatively recent adherence in the seventeenth century to the famous “Confessio fidei orthodoxa” of Peter Mogilas (cf. Kimmel, “Monum. fidei eccl. orient.”, Jena, 1850, I, p. 180), that the Schismatical Greek Church adopted the view, according to which the priest does not at all consecrate by virtue of the words of Institution, but only by means of the Epiklesis occurring shortly after them and expressing in the Oriental Liturgies a petition to the Holy Spirit, “that the bread and wine may be converted into the Body and Blood of Christ”. Were the Greeks justified in maintaining this position, the immediate result would be, that the Latins who have no such thing as the Epiklesis in their present Liturgy, would possess neither the true Sacrifice of the Mass nor the Holy Eucharist. Fortunately,** however, the Greeks can be shown the error of their ways from their own writings, since it can be proved, that they themselves formerly placed the form of Transubstantiation in the words of Institution. **…

…The objection that the mere historical recitation of the words of Institution taken from the narrative of the Last Supper possesses no intrinsic consecratory force, would be well founded, did the priest of the Latin Church merely intend by means of them to narrate some historical event rather than pronounce them with the practical purpose of effecting the conversion, or if he pronounced them in his own name and person instead of the Person of Christ, whose minister and instrumental cause he is.** Neither of the two suppositions holds in the case of a priest who really intends to celebrate Mass**. Hence, though **the Greeks may in the best of faith go on erroneously maintaining that they consecrate exclusively in their Epiklesis, they do, nevertheless, as in the case of the Latins, actually consecrate by means of the words of Institution contained in their Liturgies, if Christ has instituted these words as the words of consecration and the form of the sacrament. We may in fact go a step farther and assert, that the words of Institution constitute the only and wholly adequate form of the Eucharist **and that, consequently, the words of the Epiklesis possess no inherent consecratory value…

Though this opinion cannot be condemned as erroneous in faith, since it allows to the words of Institution their essential, though partial, consecratory value, appears nevertheless to be intrinsically repugnant. For, since the act of Consecration cannot remain, as it were, in a state of suspense, but is completed in an instant of time, there arises the dilemma: Either the words of Institution alone and, therefore, not the Epiklesis, are productive of the conversion, or the words of the Epiklesis alone have such power and not the words of Institution. Of more considerable importance is the circumstance that the whole question came up for discussion in the council for union held at Florence in 1439. Pope Eugene IV urged the Greeks to come to a unanimous agreement with the Roman faith and subscribe to the words of Institution as alone constituting the sacramental form, and to drop the contention that the words of the Epiklesis also possessed a partial consecratory force. But when the Greeks, not without foundation, pleaded that a dogmatic decision would reflect with shame upon their whole ecclesiastical past, the ecumenical synod was satisfied with the oral declaration of Cardinal Bessarion recorded in the minutes of the council for 5 July, 1439 (P.G., CLXI, 491), namely, that the Greeks follow the universal teaching of the Fathers, especially of “blessed John Chrysostom, familiarly known to us”, according to whom** the “Divine words of Our Redeemer contain the full and entire force of Transubstantiation”. **

newadvent.org/cathen/05584a.htm

The “intent” of the Priest is in celebrating the Mass, and the words of consecration are those same words as spoken by Christ.
 
V. Who can Baptize?1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57In case of necessity, any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize, if he has the required intention. the intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes, and to apply the Trinitarian baptismal formula. the Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.58
the catechism disagrees
Thank you Montalo,

This supports what I have said. Because an atheist does not believe in God, and because a Mormon does not believe in the Trinity as does the Church, there lacks the “required intention” of doing what the Church does when she baptizes…

That being said, I believe that if someone were in mortal danger and close to dying, the Lord would ensure that the person, if they desired baptism, would have that chance before death. There have been many “miraculous” events that have supported this view.

blessings,
 
You have not carefully read what I wrote - you mostly repeated what I have said, except that we disagree on the miracle of Lanciano. It was transubstantiation. The Bread WAS changed, when it was consecrated!!
Transubstantiation means the substance changes while the accidents remain. The miracle at Lanciano had the accidents change as well. That is why it is not transubstantiation.
And please don’t put words in my mouth – I have not mentioned the consecration and proper words of consecration as being “hocus pocus or magic”. Please don’t insult me by twisting words and inserting your own where I have not even come close to saying that.
Did you or did you not say that the words alone
That is because Mormons do not use the Trinitarian formula, that is why they do not validly baptize.

An atheist can baptize if they follow the valid formula and intends to do what the Church does at baptism, and uses water poured over another person (or immersion, but granting an atheist is doing this out of compassion for the other person he may not go to such lengths).

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

V. WHO CAN BAPTIZE?

1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize58 , by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.59
 
Thank you Montalo,

This supports what I have said. Because an atheist does not believe in God, and because a Mormon does not believe in the Trinity as does the Church, there lacks the “required intention” of doing what the Church does when she baptizes…

That being said, I believe that if someone were in mortal danger and close to dying, the Lord would ensure that the person, if they desired baptism, would have that chance before death. There have been many “miraculous” events that have supported this view.

blessings,
No, again this is wrong. One’s belief is not required for baptizing. Only that one will do what the Church wills at baptism.
 
You are mistaken for an atheist cannot make a valid baptism. For example: Mormons baptize and use the same words as we do, however, because they do not believe in the same God as we do, their baptisms are invalid. The Church has deemed so, and that is why they are called “pseudo-Christians”. The Church does not recognize their baptisms as valid.

And in order for a host to be consecrated it MUST be within the context of the Mass. Check the facts.

And I repeat, intent when consecrating the host does not matter so long as the proper words of consecration are being followed by a validly ordained Priest.
Its not their lack of belief that they cannot validly baptize, but their lack of the proper intent. When they baptize, they intend the person to become Mormon, not to become Christian.

Again, there is nothing in Catholic teaching that says one’s lack of belief in a Trinitarian God would invalidate a Baptism. Because the Mormons believe in a Church other that Christ’s Church, the intention required is not supplied. On the other hand, an atheist doing a dying Catechumen a favor is more likely to do what the Church intends, which is to baptize the dying Catechumen into the Catholic Church.
 
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