Consensual Non-Monogamy

[Seeker2010]

This thread is actually a continuation of an off-topic side conversation from another one. Feel free to participate, or not, at your discretion.

Murder is the killing of an innocent person. Obviously if someone is threatening your life, he/she is not innocent and ergo, you have not murdered him/her.

The point is that the exact same action with the exact same result is different based on context.

All spouses involved say it’s cool. That may very well be what they say, but not necessarily what they really mean.

Well, certainly one can never be 100% certain of what’s in another persons inner thoughts, believe me when I say it’s generally obvious when one party or another doesn’t really want to be there. They may as well be wearing a neon sign.

Oh, I forgot to mention that promiscuity can lead to STDs, one of which is AIDS.

There have only been two cases documented to the CDC of AIDS being spread by people in the lifestyle, both woman who had unprotected anal sex with the same man. And safe sex practices are nearly universal, from all available information (and scientifically valid statistical information is scarce) it seems that rates of STD’s are less than the general population.

it’s a lack of respect for human beings and an aid to further slipping down that ol’ slippery slope.

I don’t understand how a mutually enjoyable (and mutually consensual) experience can be disrespectful, but perhaps we should just agree to disagree.

What if a 14 year-old’s parents decide that it’s OK for her to be promiscuous, with her agreement?

Well, they may 14 year olds who are emotionally mature enough to handle it, I suspect they are few and far between.

What if she is promiscuous with her brothers? What if she is promiscuous with her sister and her sister’s friends? What if her 42 year-old uncle is quite willing?

These are really outrageous scenarios. I can’t imagine too many people in the real world would even entertain such a proposition.

What if a Catholic priest decides that he wants to have sexual relations with a nun and she is willing? Is this OK?

What if? I’m presuming one must be an adult to be a priest or a nun, so they’re perfectly capable of making that decision. There may be ramifications with their church (which happens to also be their employer), but that’s between them.

What if a man decides he likes sadism and the woman agrees and he slaps her around during sex? Is this OK?

Sure, I know many people who do such things, though it’s generally not slapping around like a vicious rapist would do (though I have no doubt some do it that way). But a spanking or a flogger… Of course it’s ok, why wouldn’t it be?

In a way I understand your situation. If everyone involved is an adult and gives full consent and takes precautions against STDs (as best they can), what is the problem? This is where we will not agree. I believe adultery is a sin and a grevious one at that. You don’t.

Actually, I do, though I’m not sure I’d use the word ‘sin’, but I don’t consider mutually consensual actions as adultery. But I hate cheaters. Ok, hate is a strong term, but I despise cheating.

Why are you hiding it? Are you hiding it?

Our sex life is simply none of his business, whether it’s monogamous or otherwise. He’s not my son, and it’s not my role to teach him, but his mother has not trained him that monogamy is the only way, more left it as an open ended thing that he can, when the time is right, figure out what’s right for him.

But what would you do if your son came out and asked you about the other women and the other men and women involved with your wife? Would you lie to him?

No. But he is very careful about what he asks, especially on anything related to sex, because his mom has always answered completely honestly, and from time to time he’s ended up wishing he hadn’t asked. Please don’t interpret that to mean anything inappropriate has been said, it hasn’t, just things that are embarrassing for teenagers, especially when talking to their mom.

Do you think that Catholic behavior is significantly caused by guilt put on Catholics by the Church? I’ve heard this before and I’d like to know what you think. (Actually that would be a good thread by itself, too.)

This is largely my opinion, as I haven’t discussed it with enough Catholics to have actual data, but I’d say yes. The rules the church puts out are confusing and hard to keep track of, and the threat of eternal damnation for a failure to comply, even if accidental, is pretty steep. Even the timing of your actions can make a difference. Masturbate, go to confession, die in a car crash on the way home and you’re good. Masturbate, go to confession, but die in a car crash before you get there and you’re screwed.

And one last thing: I appreciate your charity. It’s rare on CAF for people to be so charitable when they disagree. Thank you.

I’m just a normal guy, and I try to be kind and likable. I have different ideas about the true nature of God and spirituality than you do, and very different sexual habits, but most people find me pleasant to hang around. It’s much more conducive to conversation, even between those who disagree, to do so charitably.

 

[Spirithound]

…and the threat of eternal damnation for a failure to comply, even if accidental, is pretty steep.

One cannot sin accidentally.

 

[PatrickSebast]

I don’t really have a great urge to involve myself in this discussion but since I will be said at some point anyway and I enjoy playing devils advocate at times I will just mention that it happened in the bible and no one really seemed to say anything about it.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Seeker, I apologize for not getting here sooner. I made the mistake of lurking in the prior thread and then had to post even though I said I was leaving that thread.

But I have been thinking a lot. First of all, I can’t really understand what you do, as I don’t think you can understand what I do (or rather, what I don’t do). I guess I should let you know that I am a woman, as there was some confusion about that. My user name reflects my membership in the Church Militant - God’s Army. Every Catholic is a member though many don’t know they are. I’ve never served in the military and I hate war.

I got married at age 23. Four years later my husband died by taking his own life. That’s why I said my covenant was blown to bits and then run over by a steam roller. I never got married again and it’s been a long time. I have no intention of getting married again. I also promised God that I would remain celibate and by that I mean no sexual activity of any kind.

I’m not the way I am because I think it’s good to suffer. I actually prefer living this way as compared to being married, raising children, etc. I do what I want to do, when I want to do it (as long as I can afford it). I’m moving to another state and don’t have to discuss the move with anyone. I could sell my house and move into the deep forests of Montana if I wanted to. I really enjoy that kind of freedom.

And I wonder if it is that freedom you enjoy, too. I do understand that you are committed to your wife - you’ve made that clear and I assume that you love her very much. But I do have a question: Doesn’t it ever get complicated? I mean, does a woman you decide you would like to sleep with agree but then want an emotional attachment? I know there have been several movies produced on this subject, not that I can remember the names of any of them right now.

Please let me know if I’m getting too personal here. I wonder if your sex life with your wife is completely separate from your sex life with others, so that sexual relations with your wife are for more than just pleasure but for bonding and as a means of showing love, whereas your sex life with other women is just for pleasure. Do I have this right? And of course the same would be true for your wife and the men and women she has sexual relations with.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I don’t really have a great urge to involve myself in this discussion but since I will be said at some point anyway and I enjoy playing devils advocate at times I will just mention that it happened in the bible and no one really seemed to say anything about it.

Patrick, could you please post what it says in the bible or post the book, chapter, and verse so others can look it up? I’m not sure what the bible says about this issue. Thank you!!

Devil’s advocates are always welcome!!

 

[Seeker2010]

Seeker, I apologize for not getting here sooner. I made the mistake of lurking in the prior thread and then had to post even though I said I was leaving that thread.

No worries, better late than never.

I got married at age 23. Four years later my husband died by taking his own life. That’s why I said my covenant was blown to bits and then run over by a steam roller. I never got married again and it’s been a long time. I have no intention of getting married again. I also promised God that I would remain celibate and by that I mean no sexual activity of any kind.

If you’re truly happy that way, then good. As you might imagine, a life like that would drive me insane, probably criminally so. The only thing I would say to you is to truly examine if you want to live that way.

But I do have a question: Doesn’t it ever get complicated? I mean, does a woman you decide you would like to sleep with agree but then want an emotional attachment? I know there have been several movies produced on this subject, not that I can remember the names of any of them right now.

It has never happened to me, nor to my wife to the best of my knowledge, and though I cannot be absolutely, positively certain it hasn’t, I’m 99.9999% sure she would have shared that with me. I am quite sure it has happened to others, though I personally have never experienced it (or known about it with friends), but I cannot completely rule out that it may happen to us eventually. That said, people who truly understand and embrace the lifestyle do not have issues like that.

Please let me know if I’m getting too personal here.

Not likely to be a problem with me. If you ask me to post my cell phone number and address on a public forum, I might balk, but otherwise ask away.

I wonder if your sex life with your wife is completely separate from your sex life with others, so that sexual relations with your wife are for more than just pleasure but for bonding and as a means of showing love, whereas your sex life with other women is just for pleasure. Do I have this right? And of course the same would be true for your wife and the men and women she has sexual relations with.

Yes, though not all the time. There’s fking, and then there’s making love. I have never made love with anyone but my wife, though we fk from time to time too. She’s bisexual, so she enjoys encounters with men and women as well. We have one rule… we always play together, though that’s not so anal as to be interpreted that we have to stop what we’re doing if the other one gets up to go to the restroom.

 

[LittleSoldier]

bump

 

[Seeker2010]

You bumped but didn’t reply lol.

 

[LittleSoldier]

You bumped but didn’t reply lol.

I know. I got caught up in two threads (that are now closed) but I wanted to bring more people in. It obviously didn’t work.

 

[LittleSoldier]

This thread is actually a continuation of an off-topic side conversation from another one. Feel free to participate, or not, at your discretion.

There have only been two cases documented to the CDC of AIDS being spread by people in the lifestyle, both woman who had unprotected anal sex with the same man. And safe sex practices are nearly universal, from all available information (and scientifically valid statistical information is scarce) it seems that rates of STD’s are less than the general population.

Do you have a source for this? I’d like to read the study. Thanks.

I don’t understand how a mutually enjoyable (and mutually consensual) experience can be disrespectful, but perhaps we should just agree to disagree.

OK.

Well, they may 14 year olds who are emotionally mature enough to handle it, I suspect they are few and far between.

I don’t think there are any 14 year olds who are emotionally mature enough. I don’t think people in their twenties are mature enough (I wasn’t). But that’s just my opinion.

These are really outrageous scenarios. I can’t imagine too many people in the real world would even entertain such a proposition.

I don’t have a source for this as it actually came from another person but nothing surprises me any more - some people are pushing for legalized pedophilia with their own children and legalized killing of children up to age three. And I’m not kidding. There are a lot of very sick people in the world and a lot of evil people, too. We already have legalized PBA and I can’t believe that a child who is being born is turned around in the womb so that only her head is left inside the mother and then her brains are scrambled. A society that accepts this kind of behavior will accept a lot more as time goes on. It’s the old slippery slope, which is sometimes a fallacy but sometimes not. I see an increasing cheapening of human life. Or maybe it’s always been there but with computers the world is much smaller and we’re able to know a lot more about what is going on.

What if? I’m presuming one must be an adult to be a priest or a nun, so they’re perfectly capable of making that decision. There may be ramifications with their church (which happens to also be their employer), but that’s between them.

I apologize for this question. What a stupid question!! I must have been groggy when I wrote that (I take a lot of meds). I’m sorry. How dumb of me.

Sure, I know many people who do such things, though it’s generally not slapping around like a vicious rapist would do (though I have no doubt some do it that way). But a spanking or a flogger… Of course it’s ok, why wouldn’t it be?

It causes physical damage. Well, not spanking but flogging (depending on the extent). But it also reinforces a disordered psychology. A person should not enjoy being flogged. Flogging is a punishment and I would wonder why anyone would enjoy being punished. It seems to me that it would be because of something that happened in the past and the person feels that he/she deserves to be punished. But if it causes no problems in the person’s life then it’s up to that person to seek treatment. If it gets carried over into the person’s general life then it’s a real problem. It all depends on the person.

Actually, I do, though I’m not sure I’d use the word ‘sin’, but I don’t consider mutually consensual actions as adultery. But I hate cheaters. Ok, hate is a strong term, but I despise cheating.

I’m learning a lot from this. At this point I don’t know what to say.

Our sex life is simply none of his business, whether it’s monogamous or otherwise. He’s not my son, and it’s not my role to teach him, but his mother has not trained him that monogamy is the only way, more left it as an open ended thing that he can, when the time is right, figure out what’s right for him.

Actually that sounds very healthy. It would be different in a Catholic family but your family isn’t Catholic. And I’m certainly no expert on raising children.

This is largely my opinion, as I haven’t discussed it with enough Catholics to have actual data, but I’d say yes. The rules the church puts out are confusing and hard to keep track of, and the threat of eternal damnation for a failure to comply, even if accidental, is pretty steep. Even the timing of your actions can make a difference. Masturbate, go to confession, die in a car crash on the way home and you’re good. Masturbate, go to confession, but die in a car crash before you get there and you’re screwed.

That is not what the Church teaches. You’re not screwed at all. Your sin is forgiven. In fact, you don’t even have to be in a car crash on your way to Confession. You may sin and feel bad about it and then decide to go to Confession. If you die right then your sin is forgiven. God is not an ogre. He loves us and wants us to come home to be with Him.

The priest at my church has told me that it is actually difficult to commit a mortal sin. That is because three conditions must be met:

(1) The act must be grave.
(2) The person who commits the act must know that it is grave.
(3) The person who commits the act must do so with full intent.

How many times does someone meet all three criteria? I missed Mass today. That is a grave act and I know it! But I am ill and groggy and could not go. So I did not give my full consent (intent) and therefore I did not commit a mortal sin. I didn’t even commit a venial sin. I didn’t sin at all.

-----continued in next post-----

 

[LittleSoldier]

-----continuation of previous post-----

I’m just a normal guy, and I try to be kind and likable. I have different ideas about the true nature of God and spirituality than you do, and very different sexual habits, but most people find me pleasant to hang around. It’s much more conducive to conversation, even between those who disagree, to do so charitably.

Boy, I’ll say!! I just got out of two threads that were an absolutely miserable experience for me. No charity from one poster - just insult after insult. I’m glad they were closed. It was one of those situations where I didn’t want to leave because that would be giving in but I also didn’t want to post. And then I started getting angry. It’s hard to write charitable posts when I’m angry.

But they’re closed and I’m here and I’m sorry it took so long. I thought it had only been a few days but I even had problems finding this thread because it had been weeks. I know the days are getting shorter but this is ridiculous!

 

[bhall0689]

I don’t really get the point. Catholics aren’t going to agree with this type of lifestyle because it’s completely contrary to the morals their religion teaches. You aren’t going to change their opinion.

There’s things that make sense on a practical/secularist level, and things that make sense on a religious level. Maybe you can morally justify swinging on a practical level for yourself, but not on other’s religious level on a Catholic forum. The reason no one has responded is because they can’t relate.

 

[Seeker2010]

Do you have a source for this? I’d like to read the study. Thanks.

I used to, but it was on my old computer. I’ll do some looking around, as an initial google search was not fruitful.

I don’t have a source for this as it actually came from another person but nothing surprises me any more - some people are pushing for legalized pedophilia with their own children and legalized killing of children up to age three. And I’m not kidding.

As long as there are humans there will be fringe whack-job humans, too. Fortunately they are an overwhelming minority, but they will always be with us. So while I do not doubt you when you say there are some lunatics advocating these things, I do not think it will ever become mainstream.

We already have legalized PBA and I can’t believe that a child who is being born is turned around in the womb so that only her head is left inside the mother and then her brains are scrambled.

I typically steer clear of abortion as I consider it a waste of bandwidth. The sides are too far away, and nobody is willing to budge. That said, if what I’ve read about PBA is accurate, and I don’t know whether it is or not, I endorse banning it. Frankly, the fact that it’s NOT banned makes me question if what I have read is actually more propaganda than true, as it seems so hideous.

It causes physical damage. Well, not spanking but flogging (depending on the extent). But it also reinforces a disordered psychology. A person should not enjoy being flogged. Flogging is a punishment and I would wonder why anyone would enjoy being punished. It seems to me that it would be because of something that happened in the past and the person feels that he/she deserves to be punished. But if it causes no problems in the person’s life then it’s up to that person to seek treatment. If it gets carried over into the person’s general life then it’s a real problem. It all depends on the person.

I normally would have trimmed this quote, but I want you to really think about the story I’m getting ready to tell you as it resonates with the various points you’ve made above.

First, playing football causes physical damage, so that in and of itself is not sufficient to call it immoral. Second, the same laws of Leviticus that declare homosexuality an abomination also declare the skin of a pig unclean, as well as working on the Sabbath, so perhaps football is immoral after all.

However, this is where I get serious.

I have a close personal friend of mine who is a firefighter with the FDNY. He survived 9/11, survived another incident that should have killed him where a building collapsed on top of him, and after 15 or 20 years on the job has been dealing with some psychological issues. Survivors guilt. Anxiety. Panic Attacks. His is a very mentally challenging job, as it is essentially his job to save lives, and sometimes, he failed.

He went to therapists. He took this med, he took that med. It wasn’t helping.

Then he discovered BDSM.

He became the sub of one of the local scene’s premier female Doms, and he takes a beating from her on a regular basis. Floggers. Canes. Paddles. Even walks around on a leash controlled by his wife.

And it’s done wonders for his mental health. Why? Two reasons. First, if for but a moment, he is able to let everything go. He’s not in charge, he doesn’t have to worry, he doesn’t have to think. Two, it’s not about the pain, it’s about the endorphins that come next. And, as he told me just last night, ‘If I can handle THIS, I can handle ANYTHING.’

It’s unconventional, sure, but after reading that can you really say it’s evil? That something that brought healing to a person who can legitimately be called a hero is a bad thing?

(1) The act must be grave.
(2) The person who commits the act must know that it is grave.
(3) The person who commits the act must do so with full intent.

As I believe proclamations of any religion are merely opinions of mortal (and imperfect) humans, I can’t say I agree with that. But for the sake of argument, let’s say I do. I would then argue, that an otherwise mortal sin that is done with the belief that is not sinful, even if such belief is wrong, doesn’t qualify.

So all those teenagers can lose the guilt about spanking the monkey. Of course, that would cut the threads on CAF by about 85% lol.

 

[Seeker2010]

You aren’t going to change their opinion.

Not trying to. The topic came up as a tangent on another thread, and Soldier was interested and asked me to start a thread on the topic, which I obliged. If it’s only between her and me that’s fine by me.

 

[bhall0689]

Also, one more short interjection, Partial Birth Abortions have been illegal since 2003 and the ban was recently upheld again in 2007

 

[LittleSoldier]

Also, one more short interjection, Partial Birth Abortions have been illegal since 2003 and the ban was recently upheld again in 2007

I assume you’re referring to the U.S. Obama has made it clear that he supports PBAs. I find his presence in office terrifying.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Seeker, I wrote something but then I deleted it because I would like to ask a few more questions.

Why did you and your wife get married? I’m wondering because wouldn’t it have been the same thing basically if you just lived together?

Did you start swinging after you got married? Were there a few years after you got married during which you didn’t swing?

How long have you been married? Did you live together before you got married? If so, how long did you live together before you got married?

My last question may appear a bit strange, but have either your wife or yourself been baptised?

I think that’s it for now. I feel awful about neglecting this thread. My dog died and may have been poisoned and I’ve been a mess although I did post a few times in other threads. Then I found a border collie puppy in another state and it took me almost four days of driving to get her and then to get home.

I don’t want you to think that I’m ignoring you. I’ve been thinking a lot about your friend and what he has done to help himself mentally. Sometimes I have to put something in the back of my head and just think about it off and on and then I come up with something that hopefully makes sense. And that’s what I’m doing with both your friend’s story (and yes, he is definitely a hero!!) and with your story.

 

[Seeker2010]

Seeker, I wrote something but then I deleted it because I would like to ask a few more questions.

OK.

Why did you and your wife get married? I’m wondering because wouldn’t it have been the same thing basically if you just lived together?

Actually, legally we’re not married, though we may be covered under common law, and we plan to actually do it eventually. That said, she is my wife, and is so because I love her, and she loves me, and we desire to spend the rest of our lives together.

Did you start swinging after you got married? Were there a few years after you got married during which you didn’t swing?

While that is statistically more normal, we’ve been swinging since the very beginning of our relationship. I realized that physical monogamy was not something that I desired and told her that before we got serious. She was okay with that, and the rest, as they say, is history.

How long have you been married? Did you live together before you got married? If so, how long did you live together before you got married?

Again, legally we’re not, but we both consider that we are. 7 years.

My last question may appear a bit strange, but have either your wife or yourself been baptised?

Yes, both of us. Myself at the age of about 13 in a Methodist church, her at an age I don’t know (and she’s asleep now) in a Catholic church. And yes, it does seem a strange question lol.

I feel awful about neglecting this thread.

No worries. I, myself, am headed out of town tomorrow for my brothers wedding. While I hope to keep up with my footprint in cyberspace, I can’t guarantee that I can, so if you respond and it’s neglected, either post again in about 10 days or send me a PM.

And that’s what I’m doing with both your friend’s story (and yes, he is definitely a hero!!) and with your story.

Indeed he is. I am proud to call him a friend.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Actually, legally we’re not married, though we may be covered under common law, and we plan to actually do it eventually. That said, she is my wife, and is so because I love her, and she loves me, and we desire to spend the rest of our lives together.

But why do you plan to actually become married? Wouldn’t it be the same if you didn’t get married?

While that is statistically more normal, we’ve been swinging since the very beginning of our relationship. I realized that physical monogamy was not something that I desired and told her that before we got serious. She was okay with that, and the rest, as they say, is history.

OK. Thanks.

Again, legally we’re not, but we both consider that we are. 7 years.

I don’t know about common-law marriage. I don’t know if it even exists anymore.

Yes, both of us. Myself at the age of about 13 in a Methodist church, her at an age I don’t know (and she’s asleep now) in a Catholic church. And yes, it does seem a strange question lol.

It is indeed a strange question but it relates to marriage in a roundabout way. I’m very confused myself about baptism but when my fiance and I wanted to get married in the Church the priest asked if my fiance had been baptised. He had - as a Presbyterian. Of course I was baptised as a Catholic. I didn’t understand why baptism was so important but it’s easier for a Catholic to marry a non-Catholic in a Church ceremony if both have been baptised as Christians. It doesn’t seem to matter if one has not been baptised as a Catholic - it’s the baptism itself that is important.

And to be honest, right now I can’t remember why I even asked this question but it was important at the time and I hope I remember why I asked.

No worries. I, myself, am headed out of town tomorrow for my brothers wedding. While I hope to keep up with my footprint in cyberspace, I can’t guarantee that I can, so if you respond and it’s neglected, either post again in about 10 days or send me a PM.

Congratulations on the newest member of your family. I do hope he is being married in the Church. Just kiddin’ there, although I do really hope it.

 

[Seeker2010]

But why do you plan to actually become married? Wouldn’t it be the same if you didn’t get married?

Two reasons.

One, it’s a good excuse to throw a kick *** party. Two, for legal purposes. Making medical decisions, joint property, etc. But you’re right, whether or not we get a government seal really doesn’t affect our day to day lives.

I do hope he is being married in the Church. Just kiddin’ there, although I do really hope it.

LOL, well, no it was held at a beach resort. Ours will probably be something similar, though I’m inclined to actually do it ON the beach. Though we may have to have two, one for regular people, and one for our more freaky friends!