"Consenting adults"

[Memaw]

The trouble with is that God could do something about it, IF he so chose! Since he never expresses his “displeasure” it is reasonable to maintain that he does not care. If you are a parent, and see that your child does something you do not approve, then you had better STEP in and explain why that behavior is “frowned upon”.

Whatever makes you think that God doesn’t care. HE cared enough to send HIS Divine Son to redeem us. HE taught us HIS laws and what he asks of us in our way of life. To come follow Him. HE left us HIS Church to guide us and sanctify us, through the Seven Sacraments, as we live our daily lives. He instilled in us a desire for following the natural law and the ability to learn HIS TRUTHS. The only thing HE didn’t do is take away our “free will” and HE will never do that. God Bless, Memaw, PS, even when a “parent” steps in and explains why the behavior is wrong, sometimes that “child” just doesn’t care. Our post Christian society is a GOOD example of that!!!

 

[Pallas_Athene]

More than once in Scripture God stepped in and expressed his displeasure with sodomy, if that is the point of this discussion. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah? Remember Paul condemnation of sodomy in his letter to the Romans?

Why do you think that a 2000 years old book of mythology counts as an argument?

Moreover, we are created with a conscience that tells us when something is wrong.

My conscience tells me that it is perfectly fine to express your LOVE toward another human when we both agree on it. It is amazing that you guys insist on “LOVE” being the utmost good, but you declare certain acts or expressions of LOVE to be intrinsically evil. And then you are surprised when you are not taken seriously.

That too is God’s way of stepping in. Where God does not step in is to forcibly prevent us from sinning against him, against the natural law, and against ourselves. It’s called free will. Do atheists believe in it?

There is no such thing as “natural law”. Besides, if that father steps in and tells his child not to behave in a certain fashion, that does NOT infringe upon the “free will” of that child. As for my general attitude toward “free will”, please read my signature.

People should be free to choose between heaven and hell, and they do.

I cannot choose between two imaginary “places”. Once I get a guided tour and the exact instructions about the ways and means to get or avoid them, then and only then can I make a meaningful choice between them. Up until that point your dire warnings are not accepted as valid arguments.

Whatever makes you think that God doesn’t care.

I can only repeat: “don’t think that a 2000 years old book of mythology is an argument”.

PS, even when a “parent” steps in and explains why the behavior is wrong, sometimes that “child” just doesn’t care.

In that case the parent explains it again - PERSONALLY, and if the child still neglects it, then the parent spanks the child - but does not throw him into an eternal fire. The punishment must follow the deed and needs to be commensurate to the deed. Elementary child psychology, my dear Watson.

 

[clem456]

Since when do people refrain from advocating their vision of the best possible society. Is that kind of advocacy only off limits for Christians?
So if I renounce my Christianity, then I am qualified to speak about what’s best for society?

The idea that we don’t all promote our vision of what’s best for society is just ridiculous.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

There is no such thing as “natural law”. Besides, if that father steps in and tells his child not to behave in a certain fashion, that does NOT infringe upon the “free will” of that child. As for my general attitude toward “free will”, please read my signature.

Natural law: Eat to live.
Unnatural law: Live to eat.

Natural law: Protect your unborn child.
Unnatural law: Kill your unborn child.

Natural law: Have sex with opposite sex.
Unnatural law: Have sex with same sex.

In each of the above cases the modern world has gone berserk … because it puts the law of MY LAW over and against the NATURAL LAW.

What is there about NATURAL LAW you don’t get?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Why do you think that a 2000 years old book of mythology counts as an argument?

Why do you think your opinion counts as an argument?

Some truths are eternal, and you shouldn’t hold their old age against them.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

“Man cannot live without joy; therefore when he is deprived of true spiritual joys it is necessary that he become addicted to carnal pleasures.” St. Thomas Aquinas

Unmitigated hedonism is evil.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Some truths are eternal, and you shouldn’t hold their old age against them.

There are only the truths of mathematics which are eternal, nothing else.

Natural law: Eat to live.
Unnatural law: Live to eat.

Nothing wrong or unnatural with drinking zero-calorie Coke in order JUST to enjoy the taste without the unwanted nutrition.

Natural law: Protect your unborn child.
Unnatural law: Kill your unborn child.

Nothing wrong or unnatural about not wanting children in the first place.

Natural law: Have sex with opposite sex.
Unnatural law: Have sex with same sex.

Nothing wrong or unnatural with separating sex from procreation. Or having non-vaginal intercourse with your spouse. Love is LOVE, regardless the gender of the partners, or the marital status of the partners, or the desire of the partners to procreate.

What is there about NATURAL LAW you don’t get?

That it does not exist. What you call “natural law” is just an old mythology, and you pick and choose which parts of that mythology belong to the “natural law”, and which parts are outdated superstitions.

As long as you declare certain expressions of LOVE to be “intrinsically evil”, all your arguments amount to nothing.

 

[clem456]

My wrong what?

The human body is not built to throw a 90 mile an hour cutting fastball but there are several thousand men worldwide doing it. It’s rare for someone to do that for years and not require some kind of surgery. Just because it is not conducive to the body we don’t say God has spoken out against baseball. If homosexuals know the risks then who am I to stop them?

A human being winds up and throws a baseball. Yea? And?

An arm is designed that way. Can everyone throw it 90mph? No (doh, some throw it 40 some throw it 100). That’s not the point. The point is… human beings are created with arms that can do things like throw a ball and swing a hammer and pick their noses. An arm is ordered to purposes that anyone with eyes and a common reason can see.

You have to abdicate your reason and lie to yourself to deny the obvious.
I just think that would be an odd position for a believing atheist, one who believes in the supremacy of reason, to be in.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

A human being winds up and throws a baseball. Yea? And?

An arm is designed that way. Can everyone throw it 90mph? No (doh, some throw it 40 some throw it 100). That’s not the point. The point is… human beings are created with arms that can do things like throw a ball and swing a hammer and pick their noses. An arm is ordered to purposes that anyone with eyes and a common reason can see.

You have to abdicate your reason and lie to yourself to deny the obvious.
I just think that would be an odd position for a believing atheist, one who believes in the supremacy of reason, to be in.

You did not consider the most important part: “It’s rare for someone to do that for years and not require some kind of surgery”. Just look at the gymnasts, and their joints at their “age” of 20 to 25. Their joints are in the same shape as a normal octogenarian’s joints. They are wasted, because they are overused, abused. The human knee joints were not “designed” to be exposed to such usage, in other words it is really UNNATURAL to overuse them. But God never gave a “warning” about this - so obviously he does not care.

There are many ways and means to “abuse” your body. But having sex without the intent to procreate is definitely not one of those. And you think that God actually cared or cares about this? That would be the height of irrationality on the part of the Almighty Creator.

 

[clem456]

You did not consider the most important part: “It’s rare for someone to do that for years and not require some kind of surgery”. Just look at the gymnasts, and their joints at their “age” of 20 to 25. Their joints are in the same shape as a normal octogenarian’s joints. They are wasted, because they are overused, abused. The human knee joints were not “designed” to be exposed to such usage, in other words it is really UNNATURAL to overuse them. But God never gave a “warning” about this - so obviously he does not care.

There are many ways and means to “abuse” your body. But having sex without the intent to procreate is definitely not one of those. And you think that God actually cared or cares about this? That would be the height of irrationality on the part of the Almighty Creator.

And in the same statement you claim there are un-natural uses of the body.


What, according to your opinion/belief, is un-natural about throwing a baseball? And how do you come upon the authority to declare one thing natural and another un-natural. And how do you pretend to know what God cares about?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

As long as you declare certain expressions of LOVE to be “intrinsically evil”, all your arguments amount to nothing.

Sodomy is hardly an expression of love, but rather of hedonistic lust.

It seems all your arguments amount to evasions and non-sequiturs.

Do try harder … if you can. If you can’t …

 

[Pallas_Athene]

What, according to your opinion/belief, is un-natural about throwing a baseball?

The throwing itself is fine. The frequency and the force are what ruin your body. Have you heard of the “tennis elbow”? Or a “carpal tunnel syndrome”? The point is that allegedly certain uses are harmful, and thus - unnatural. Pretty much everything is harmful when overdone.

And how do you come upon the authority to declare one thing natural and another un-natural.

If it causes harm, not as a by-product. but due to the actual usage.

And how do you pretend to know what God cares about?

That is easy… if God would care, he would come and give us the sign of his disapproval. Not 2000 thousand years ago, rather HERE, and NOW. You see, God can foresee that small child will suffer grievous bodily harm, due to his ignorance. God would not even need to interfere VISIBLY to prevent this harm, yet he does nothing. The one and only logical corollary is that he does not care. If you can foresee an event that you care about, and do not prevent it, then you can proclaim that you “care”, your lack of action will belie your words.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Sodomy is hardly an expression of love, but rather of hedonistic lust.

Love has many facets. You are not supposed to judge what is in the person’s “heart”, and yet you keep doing that. :tsktsk: Next to “lust” there can be genuine love, caring, concern and friendship. Lust is natural, it is the “earthly” part of love. Referring to the title, if it is performed by mutual consent, it is none of your business. Consider the beam in you eyes before you complain about the mote in someone else’s.

 

[tonyrey]

Love has many facets. You are not supposed to judge what is in the person’s “heart”, and yet you keep doing that. :tsktsk: Next to “lust” there can be genuine love, caring, concern and friendship. Lust is natural, it is the “earthly” part of love. Referring to the title, if it is performed by mutual consent, it is none of your business. Consider the beam in you eyes before you complain about the mote in someone else’s.

Deep love is supernatural but sodomy is unnatural and often leads to ill health.

 

[clem456]

The throwing itself is fine. The frequency and the force are what ruin your body. Have you heard of the “tennis elbow”? Or a “carpal tunnel syndrome”? The point is that allegedly certain uses are harmful, and thus - unnatural. Pretty much everything is harmful when overdone.

I’d just like to point out right here, that you are observing that a natural function of the human body can be mis-used, according to violation of form and function. Your position is inconsistent.

That is easy… if God would care, he would come and give us the sign of his disapproval…

And again, you know this exactly how? What would his sign of disapproval look or sound like? On what authority do you claim to know God’s motivations and actions? Is it your personal beliefs?

 

[Bradski]

More than once in Scripture God stepped in and expressed his displeasure with sodomy, if that is the point of this discussion. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah? Remember Paul condemnation of sodomy in his letter to the Romans?

Good grief, there is a lot of talk of sodomy in this thread. Could everyone please take a break from thinking constantly about sex for a while?

The OP is not about sodomy or sex. And it’s not about whether God steps in at any time, either in person or via one’s conscience. The OP asks if it is anyone’s business what consenting adults get up to in private.

Notwithstanding that you have no way of knowing what that is likely to be (but everyone just loves mentioning sodomy!), then if you think that it is your business, then how does that manifest itself? What do you actually do in regard to my private life?

 

[clem456]

Good grief, there is a lot of talk of sodomy in this thread. Could everyone please take a break from thinking constantly about sex for a while?

The OP is not about sodomy or sex. And it’s not about whether God steps in at any time, either in person or via one’s conscience. The OP asks if it is anyone’s business what consenting adults get up to in private.

Notwithstanding that you have no way of knowing what that is likely to be (but everyone just loves mentioning sodomy!), then if you think that it is your business, then how does that manifest itself? What do you actually do in regard to my private life?

We make judgments all the time about what others do or do not do. When was making judgments about people’s lives a new thing?
For instance, we have taxes, remember? So that the idle rich who might want to just sit in their tv room and sip alcohol are made to tend to the needs of others through taxation. Apparently it is a big deal what others do. We all are subject to many things we do not consent to, even if it’s only the judgment of others. A world without prudential judgment would be what…chaos?

Do you, for instance, make judgments about the statements or behavior of others?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Love has many facets. You are not supposed to judge what is in the person’s “heart”, and yet you keep doing that. :tsktsk: Next to “lust” there can be genuine love, caring, concern and friendship. Lust is natural, it is the “earthly” part of love. Referring to the title, if it is performed by mutual consent, it is none of your business. Consider the beam in you eyes before you complain about the mote in someone else’s.

Pallas, in reply to a question as to how you would define something as unnatural, you stated:

“If it causes harm, not as a by-product. but due to the actual usage.”

When, as a result of anal sodomy ill health is produced, do you consider that a mere by-product of anal sodomy, or is the ill health due to the “actual usage” of the penis to penetrate the anus?

And will you explain to me why sodomy is an expression of love?

And while you are about it, would you kindly resist the ad hominems which fly off your tongue? Thank you.

 

[Bradski]

Do you, for instance, make judgments about the statements or behavior of others?

All the time. Although I don’t necessarily make it my business what they do. Now it’s your turn.

You can make a judgment on what I do in the privacy of my home with my partner. Although it’s going to be pretty difficult for you seeing as it’s a private matter. That is, you have no idea what it is. That’s your first problem.

You have a second.

Assuming I tell you (and on the assumption that you’d want to know - you can let me know if you do), then if you think it’s your business, where do we go from there? What do you do?

 

[clem456]

All the time. Although I don’t necessarily make it my business what they do. Now it’s your turn.

You can make a judgment on what I do in the privacy of my home with my partner. Although it’s going to be pretty difficult for you seeing as it’s a private matter. That is, you have no idea what it is. That’s your first problem.

How is that a problem, if I have no idea what you are doing? How can you or I make judgments about matters we are not aware of?

You have a second.

Assuming I tell you (and on the assumption that you’d want to know - you can let me know if you do), then if you think it’s your business, where do we go from there? What do you do?

Depends on what is going on and what the ramifications are.
To an extreme, if you are torturing and murdering people in the basement, is that a concern of the general public?

If you are engaging in sexual acts in the privacy of your own home, AND think you should tell me about it, I would assume you are telling me in order to elicit a response (why else would you tell me?), then I would give you my point of view if it was prudent and productive to do so. If not, then I would keep silent.

But the idea that our private activities are entirely no one else’s business doesn’t work. We as individuals and as a society make many judgments about the private behavior of others. In essence, we tell people that their private behavior has ramifications for the whole of society, and we proclaim a judgment.
“How can you sit there and do nothing while others are starving” is a common one.