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Eilish_Maura
Guest
The thread does not need to be furthered derailed.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
I’ll repeat this, EM, as it is most emphatically (except for the very first line and one-half) not what central is NOT, but what is it.
Central.
As in “I am NOT PUTTING MARY AHEAD OF JESUS or saying she is GREATER THAN HE” Here is where I say that central is not 'putting Mary ahead of Jesus or saying she is greater than He but (here is where I am saying what central is–that she is His Mother, 1. she was chosen by God 2, she has a part in salvation history 3, she has a relationship to God and to the Church that is attested to by the Church4. Here are some the ways in which she is ‘central’ to ChristThe fact that she was born, said ‘yes’ to God, bore the Savior, nursed and taught Him, and that Scripture records that He was obedient to her (for 30 years) and that He gave her the honor of a son for a mother, listened to her and acted upon what she said at Cana, entrusted her to the care of St. John and by extension (as is taught by the Church) made her the new Eve and thus mother of all the living and our mother, and finally crowned her as Queen of Heaven, makes her ‘central’ to His life as God and Man, as Son, and as savior. Here are more definitions of what central is.You know, important. 1Crucial to His own birth;22 important as mother in a mother-child relationship 3; daughter of the Father , mother of the Son, and spouse of the Spirit 4. Highly honored (“All generations will call me blessed”).5 Most perfect creation of God. 6 Above all, loved. 7
More examples of how Mary is ‘central’
Without Mary’s cooperation with God, there would have been no Jesus of Nazareth. 1 That does not make her more important than Jesus.The use of ‘not’ here is not making her ‘not central’ though. That’s why I go on to explain that her cooperation makes her central. It does make her ‘central’. Because God HIMSELF makes her central. 1God didn’t just pick a woman’s name out of a hat, incubate her, then tell her, "go on, live your own life’, and forget about her. 2Her life as mother of the Savior did not ‘cease’ when Jesus ascended, or even on her own death/dormition. . .it continues today. 3
Again, now that it is totally clear to you what I have defined as ‘central’: I ask:
So, what do YOU consider central, and how does Mary fail to realize being central in Jesus’ life by YOUR definition???
Central.
As in “I am NOT PUTTING MARY AHEAD OF JESUS or saying she is GREATER THAN HE” Here is where I say that central is not 'putting Mary ahead of Jesus or saying she is greater than He but (here is where I am saying what central is–that she is His Mother, 1. she was chosen by God 2, she has a part in salvation history 3, she has a relationship to God and to the Church that is attested to by the Church4. Here are some the ways in which she is ‘central’ to ChristThe fact that she was born, said ‘yes’ to God, bore the Savior, nursed and taught Him, and that Scripture records that He was obedient to her (for 30 years) and that He gave her the honor of a son for a mother, listened to her and acted upon what she said at Cana, entrusted her to the care of St. John and by extension (as is taught by the Church) made her the new Eve and thus mother of all the living and our mother, and finally crowned her as Queen of Heaven, makes her ‘central’ to His life as God and Man, as Son, and as savior. Here are more definitions of what central is.You know, important. 1Crucial to His own birth;22 important as mother in a mother-child relationship 3; daughter of the Father , mother of the Son, and spouse of the Spirit 4. Highly honored (“All generations will call me blessed”).5 Most perfect creation of God. 6 Above all, loved. 7
More examples of how Mary is ‘central’
Without Mary’s cooperation with God, there would have been no Jesus of Nazareth. 1 That does not make her more important than Jesus.The use of ‘not’ here is not making her ‘not central’ though. That’s why I go on to explain that her cooperation makes her central. It does make her ‘central’. Because God HIMSELF makes her central. 1God didn’t just pick a woman’s name out of a hat, incubate her, then tell her, "go on, live your own life’, and forget about her. 2Her life as mother of the Savior did not ‘cease’ when Jesus ascended, or even on her own death/dormition. . .it continues today. 3
Again, now that it is totally clear to you what I have defined as ‘central’: I ask:
So, what do YOU consider central, and how does Mary fail to realize being central in Jesus’ life by YOUR definition???
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
I believe you are being a bit extreme with the use of the word ‘fail’ but:
I do not see support for her being central in Jesus’ life and ministry. This is evidenced by how little is said regarding her interactions beyond the Wedding of Cana incident, and she is spoken of by Jesus almost as infrequently.
So while Mary does have a significant role in salvation history I believe it is a stretch to say she is central to Jesus’ life.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
I have Aquinas on my side for that, & also the Liturgy, IIRC. The nothingness of creatures in relation to God follows from the Reality of God. Unless Mary is God, she is a creature, & therefore, nothing. This is sound Biblically & metaphysically. Read Isaiah 40-55 sometime.
“poor mother”? You believed she hasn’t done anything?
**Nothing. Why should she ? I put my faith in God, not in Mary - that too is Biblical. And despite the post following yours, it is simply a fact that claims made for devotion to her don’t live up to their advertising. Apparently it is not right to mention this. If so - why ? ****There is nothing admirable or good in making false claims on her behalf. The best way to honour ****Mary is that which the Holy Bible tells us of: **
- **“Do whatever He tells you to do” **
**What could be simpler or truer than that ? **
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Calliope
Guest
This is how it was taught to me. That Mary was given graces by God to distribute as she sees fit. That she is just waiting for us to pray to her so she can give them to us, but that many people do not pray to her, and she is sad to watch them suffer and struggle when she is waiting to pour out the graces if they would only ask.
So, while there is not official teaching that one must ask, it was certainly implied that we were foolish not to go to Mary, and making our life more difficult than neccessary by not doing so.
And since grace can help us avoid sin, it was implied that we did put our soul in peril by not asking, and thus receiving the graces Mary has just waiting to help us.
So nothing will be taken from you if you don’t go to Mary, but on the other hand you will be missing out on lots of good stuff if you ignore her, and that good stuff could make the difference in your spiritual journey.
Calliope
So, while there is not official teaching that one must ask, it was certainly implied that we were foolish not to go to Mary, and making our life more difficult than neccessary by not doing so.
And since grace can help us avoid sin, it was implied that we did put our soul in peril by not asking, and thus receiving the graces Mary has just waiting to help us.
So nothing will be taken from you if you don’t go to Mary, but on the other hand you will be missing out on lots of good stuff if you ignore her, and that good stuff could make the difference in your spiritual journey.
Calliope
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
How can one be missing out of ‘lots of good stuff’? The question by the OP was that one prayed to Jesus and the Father.
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Calliope
Guest
It was presented to us like this. A person is going into the grocery store, someone is standing in front handing out coupons for free stuff. Now, you can go into the store and fill your cart and pay for eggs, milk, bread, etc, or you could have stopped by the person out front and picked up the free milk, eggs and bread coupons. It is up to you. You still end up with what you need, but you had to work harder for the stuff you paid for than if you had just asked for the free coupons.
That is how it was presented. I didn’t make it up. We were told we were foolish not to see Mary first and get all the good stuff that God gave her to hand out to us.
It seems like a weird way of doing things, but who am I to judge how God wants to set up the doling out of grace?
This is what the nuns taught us, and the people who came to teach us to make rosaries, and the people from the Blue Army. They used to hand out pamphlets, miraculous medals, etc with drawings of Mary standing there with jewels and rays of graces pouring out of her hands toward those who knelt in prayer with their rosaries. And they said that it was set up by God that she was just there waiting to receive our prayers and pour out graces in response. All we had to do was ask, and since everyone needs grace, it makes no sense not to ask.
They implied that God and Christ were not so easy about doling out grace, and we’d get more from our prayer time out of Mary.
Calliope
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
Well the bolded part spits in the face of Jesus and all he taught us about the Father!!!
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allhers
Guest
The original poster (OP) also asked this:
“Are our intercessions to Mary compulsory in official teaching of Catholic Church or not? Are we losing something in our spiritual life when we do not pray to God through her”?
When you claim that I am derailing the thread, it explains a lot about your thinking, you obviously don’t understand the complete question nor the complete teachings. IF you had read the article that I posted from this site:
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm
you would have seen this:
Pius XII said “Her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion.” These and many other texts speak in varied ways of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, so often that the teaching has become infallible.
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allhers
Guest
This also shows how little you know either about the Holy Bible or the Church teachings. Perhaps you ought to exit this thread and read up.
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allhers
Guest
No one on this thread is spitting in the face of God but it does seem to many of us that you are spitting in the face of His Blessed Mother, Calliope gave you a very good example so you could further understand, I have given you links to read, Tantum Ergo and water and many others have all answered the OP questions and yours and still you say the most ignorant things. By saying ignorant, I am saying that you don’t understand, and it is evident, go learn.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
Jesus never described himself nor the Father were not so easy about doling out grace - that we should go to Mary because she has the ‘goodies’ and was fast and loose with them.
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allhers
Guest
I didn’t say that, please address your comments to those who did, from what I read it wasn’t put that way at all by the one who did explain it to you either.
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water
Guest
Guys, the best to show the consequences of not asking Virgin Mary for intercession is to show the effectiveness of asking Her for intercession. 
No need to defend something like this in vain.
No need to defend something like this in vain.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
EM, let me ask you this:
What is your view of Mary’s role in Christ’s life?
Is it now ‘over’?
If not ‘central’ to Christ’s life, what was it?
What is Mary’s relationship to the Father?
To the Spirit? (Since they also are God, as is Christ). Is that relationship over? Was it central?
What is your view of Mary’s role in Christ’s life?
Is it now ‘over’?
If not ‘central’ to Christ’s life, what was it?
What is Mary’s relationship to the Father?
To the Spirit? (Since they also are God, as is Christ). Is that relationship over? Was it central?
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
I really doubt Mary could do more for me than Jesus and the Father have.Guys, the best to show the consequences of not asking Virgin Mary for intercession is to show the effectiveness of asking Her for intercession.
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Calliope
Guest
Well, you would have to take that up with the ones who taught that this is how it works. I didn’t make it up, or teach it, so I am not in a position to defend it. I was taught this by Dominican nuns and people with a special devotion to Mary, who went to Catholic schools and taught about her, her visitations, miraculous medal and devotion and dedication to her.
If this is not the official stand of the Catholic church, I am sorry, but it was how things were explained to me, and the method used to encourage a devotion and prayer to Mary.
Calliope
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Calliope
Guest
The scripture states that Jesus said and taught many more things than have been written down, and that indeed all the books in the world could not hold all he taught. That is why there is tradition in the Catholic church, to carry on those other teachings, that they might be used to the benefit of believers.
Also, Mary has made apparitions and some of the things she said in apparitions that have been approved have helped people understand her role in salvation and grace.
Again, you are free to NOT go to Mary, her intercession is not compulsory.
J
Johndigger
Guest
Does not our beloved Lord work through people?
You seem to Mary and Jesus at odds with each other. Just as Jesus, the divine child was united to His Mother in Her womb, so is he now. There is no conflict.
The Lord uses people to do His work. If we refuse them into our hearts and lives, then we refuse him.
“(Luke 10:16) Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me”
YES, the ENTIRE human race could be saved without the Apostles. However, with the Apostles preaching the Gospels to the “ends of the earth” this salvation comes about much quicker.
God has used Mary to save the human race. Let us do the same by asking for her prayers.
In Christ,
JD
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water
Guest
Maybe you need the Holy Spirit to help you with your doubt.
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