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Johndigger
Guest
- Mary’s prayers are gifts from God to us. (Premise 1)
- It is perilous to refuse a gift from God. (Premise 2)
Therefore, to refuse Mary’s prayers it is perilous.
Which premise would you disagree with?
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- It is perilous to refuse a gift from God. (Premise 2)
Therefore, to refuse Mary’s prayers it is perilous.
Which premise would you disagree with?
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
A bit of both but mostly with the use of the concept of perilous.
Are Mary’s prayer really God’s gift to us or HER gift to us?
WHERE does the **Church **attach this concept of perilous to this issue? It is being tossed around but no back up for it has been produced so far.
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Johndigger
Guest
Why such a false dilemma? They are a gift from both.
God is the source and “first mover” of all prayers. Mary uses the gifts that God has given her for our benefit.
So, certainly, to reject Mary’s prayers are to reject a wonderful and powerful gift from God for our salvation.
Your appeal to have something defined by the Church before you believe it is certainly admirable, insofar that it shows you will believe everything the Church teaches, however, it is a viewpoint that is intrinsically flawed.
I would question your objection, does something have to be defined by the Church for it to be true? Does the Church have to define that it’s perilous for me to punch my little sister for it to be so?
The I give argument is one from logic, although it’s definitely implicitly stated in the Church’s teaching and very explicitly stated by the Saints.
St. John Mary Vianney:
Pope St. Pius X
Marian devotion is such a strong common theme in the lives of the Saints that it would be a mistake to simply brush off their advice.
Eilish, I know that logical arguments are* never*, on their own, going to get you to love the Blessed Virgin Mary and ask for her powerful intercession. The point of these, admittedly badly worded posts is an attempt, by God’s grace, to remove anything blocking you from Mary.
Glory of Israel,
Pray for us!
JD
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
No one is talking about not loving the BVM or not accepting Church teaching about her.
The discussion has been about there being negative consequences etc for not having an additional personal devotion to her - especially as indicated by asking her for intercession outside of liturgy.
THIS is what is not supported by anything posted so far.
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Genesis315
Guest
The Christian faith is not just a me and God alone thing (and idea introduced in the 18th and 19th centuries to keep God out of public life). It has vertical and horizontal dimensions. It also involves a communion of love between Christians. Intercessory prayer is one way that communion of love is manifested. Mary is a central aspect (but not the only aspect) of this communion, as we see when the Apostles prayed with her before the pouring forth of the Spirit in Acts.
To isolate oneself from the Mary, the Saints, and the Church on earth is to isolate oneself from the Body of Christ–and a member separated from the Body withers and dies.
To isolate oneself from the Mary, the Saints, and the Church on earth is to isolate oneself from the Body of Christ–and a member separated from the Body withers and dies.
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water
Guest
Every Sunday at mass we profess our faith - we believe in the communion of Saints.
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water
Guest
Professing one’s faith every Sunday on the Communion of Saints but never count on that – what does this imply?
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
No one is speaking of isolating themselves from anyone.
It has been claimed that there is peril in, basically, not going beyond what is called for in liturgies and not believing more than official teachings of the Church. Nothing you have said here supports that issue of ‘peril’ in the situation discussed.
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Johndigger
Guest
No, it’s about having devotion to her and accepting her prayers.
Hang about. You’ve just moved the goal posts here.
The topic is not about “additional personal devotion” or “intercession outside of the liturgy” it’s about:
I quote the OP:
No mention of “outside of the liturgy” or “additional personal devotion here.”
Now, let’s discuss the issue at hand.
Pope St. Pius X claims along with a whole herd of other Saints, quite simply that “Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is neccessary for salvation.”
Rejecting the gloriously generous offer from her and God for her powerful prayers is hardly “devotion.”
Therefore, there are negative consequences for not asking the Blessed Virgin Mary for intercession.
Has there ever been a Saint that stated they didn’t pray to Saint Mary in heaven?
Eilish, in many ways this conversation breaks my heart in the same way that Atheists do when they reject the very existence of God. Whenever we refuse the help of someone that loves us with such a burning love it saddens me.
JD
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FCEGM
Guest
Again, you cannot prove a negative, and the CCC doesn’t try to do that. For example: you will, of course, agree that the CCC teaches that the Trinity is an essential dogma of the Catholic Faith; so, if your demand is a reasonable one, then there must be a section in the CCC which warns us about the “downside” of not believing that God is Trinity, i.e., what the results will be if one fails to believe that God is Trinity, like the Jews and Muslims. So, where is it?
I’m aware of that; but, in giving assent to the liturgy of the Church, you admit that devotion to Mary is a good, and holy, and recommended thing. Since it is so, why set aside or avoid something that is holy or recommended by the Church?
True. But, why should the Church have to “demand” that you do something good and holy? In a family, does a parent only wish the children to do what the parent “demands,” or should the relationship be deeper and richer than that? Shouldn’t the parent expect the children to follow his example, and shares his likes and practices, and recommendations? In reducing everything to what the Church “demands” from you, you are approaching the Apostolic Faith like some legalistic exercise and not appreciating its fullness and richness and depth. That is very sad and unfortunate.
You’re correct; and no one is saying that a Catholic must have personal devotion to Mary. There may be all sorts of good reasons (that is, understandable reasons) why a Catholic neglects to develop a personal relationship with Mary. The Catholic may have psychological or cultural obstacles that prevent him from developing such a devotion. Perhaps he had serious problems with his own earthly mother while growing up, and so can’t relate to a maternal figure; perhaps he’s what modern psychology calls a sex addict (or just preoccupied with sex), and so can only view a woman in a sexual way; or perhaps the cultural trappings of Marian devotion (as traditionally expressed in European or Latin American culture) are seen as something alienating, or childish, or just “not for him.” This is all possible.
But, what I’m saying is that this point of view and mentality, while permitted by the Church (because of the kind of understandable reasons listed above) does not reflect the real mind of the Church, but is merely tolerated and indulged by the Church for the sake of those who might have these personal, or psychological, or cultural obstacles. If it were otherwise, then Marian devotion would not have a place in our public Liturgy, which is does. So, this is an important distinction, and I would encourage you to consider it. In promoting personal Marian devotion, the Church holds out an incredibly valuable good that it would like all of us to have. Granted, some Catholics may not be able or well-suited to appreciate or accept this good; and the Church makes allowances for that. But, that doesn’t mean that the lack of personal Marian devotion is “equally Catholic” to the possession of it; the latter is what the Church would have you have and the former is what the Church allows for those who might not be ready or able to do otherwise.
As St. Paul says to the Corinthians, he fed them on milk because they were not ready for solid food. A deep appreciation of Marian theology, which leads naturally and necessarily to personal Marian devotion, is part of the “solid food” of the Catholic Church. The fact that some people are content with mere “milk” is tolerated and understandable. One can survive on “milk” just as easily as one can on "solid food; “ but, what I wish to impress on you is that an entire banquet has been served for you, and God and His Church want you to enjoy all the numerous delicious tastes of the “delicacies” that the Catholic Church has to offer. If you just want to sit at the banquet and drink milk, that’s fine. You’re certainly still welcome at the table and no one will say that you are not with us. But, there are plenty of other things to “eat” here, and the intention of the Church is that you should enjoy them and benefit from them. Otherwise, the Church wouldn’t serve them to you. I urge you, please, to think about this and ponder it prayerfully.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
While much of this description is good I do not agree with you that all aspects of Marian theology are ‘solid food’ but more of a garnish with those aspects that are dogma being part of the ingredients in the ‘solid food’.
To stay within the ‘basics’ is not just drinking ‘milk’ on the sidelines of the banquet!
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
Does Pious X also claim that sticking with exactly what the Church calls for is incomplete regarding this issue?
If he did not, as the Church herself does not, then there are NO negative consequences for not asking the BVM’s intercession.
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Johndigger
Guest
Exactly what the Church calls for, recommends and indeed, implores us to have is a sincere and devout prayerful relationship with the Mother of God.
If you limit your knowledge to what the Church solemnly defines and commands, your understanding of life is going to be rather limited.
For example, you won’t know your own name or learn anything for school or work.
We need to obey what the Church recommends for us and our own common sense. Not just what is infallibly defined for us.
JD
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
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Johndigger
Guest
The Church has defined solemnly what she has needed to, when she has come under attack, so that she may guide the faithful. Most councils have been summonned in response to a particular heresy.
The Church has not defined everything it is good for a human being to do.
Devotion to Mary should be a central part of our prayer life. As she was a central part of Christ’s life.
Ladies and Gentlemen, on the one hand we have the weight of the Saints, Angels and Popes resounding “Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.” on the other hand we have Eilisha Maura crying “I do not need you!”
Who is to be believed?
Help of Christians,
Pray for us.
JD
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
How can Mary be central to Christ’s life???
There are soo many thing in our faith to aid us to grow closer to God!!! We do not have to center our prayer life around a devotion to Mary and we lose nothing if all we do is accept what the Church defines and what she has chosen to place in her liturgies!!!
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allhers
Guest
Do you go to Mass? If so, does this sound familiar,
and I ask Blessed Mary, all the Angels and Saints and you my brothers and sisters to pray for me to the Lord our God.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
Just curioius - are you being insulting or have you skipped an extreme number of posts?Do you go to Mass? If so, does this sound familiar,
and I ask Blessed Mary, all the Angels and Saints and you my brothers and sisters to pray for me to the Lord our God.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
How can Mary be central to Christ’s life? says EM.
I think right here we have encapsulated the reason for EM’s own ‘difficulties’ with Marian devotion and by extension with anything he/she perceives is ‘not mandated’ or ‘not necessary to be done’.
The fact that a Catholic can even ask, with straight face, “How can Mary be central to Christ’s life” shows that said Catholic has somehow completely failed to understand both Christ AND the Blessed Virgin, who they are, what they mean to each other and to us, and to history.
All we can do here is to prayerfully, and charitably, keep pointing to the Catechism, Scripture, and solid Catholic reading, and beg for the intercession of the Virgin to help this Catholic understand the fundamental relationship between Mary, God, and the Catholic Church.
I think right here we have encapsulated the reason for EM’s own ‘difficulties’ with Marian devotion and by extension with anything he/she perceives is ‘not mandated’ or ‘not necessary to be done’.
The fact that a Catholic can even ask, with straight face, “How can Mary be central to Christ’s life” shows that said Catholic has somehow completely failed to understand both Christ AND the Blessed Virgin, who they are, what they mean to each other and to us, and to history.
All we can do here is to prayerfully, and charitably, keep pointing to the Catechism, Scripture, and solid Catholic reading, and beg for the intercession of the Virgin to help this Catholic understand the fundamental relationship between Mary, God, and the Catholic Church.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
***PLEASE ***show were in Scripture and the Catechism - even pull from the liturgy if it is there – what supports that Mary is central to Christ’s life!!! This is starting to sound so backward - putting Mary ahead of Christ!!!
Wedding at Cana does not show this kind of centrality, nor does her standing at the foot of the cross.
Nothing quoted so far has show this kind of centrality.
What valid Catholic source teaches Mary is central to Christ’s life???
- Status