Conservative Cardinal [Burke] Who Clashed With Pope Francis Confirms He Has Been Ousted

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From what I have been reading, that seems to be the case. I wonder, though, if Cardinal Burke’s lavish lifestyle did not have something to do with his transfer. By lifestyle I mean the expensive vestments and garments he chooses.
stpeterslist.com/5111/cardinal-burke-10-photos-of-this-wondrous-prince-of-the-church/

The Pope has made mention that priests should be more humble in dress and living arrangements. He, himself, is the example.

The Malta position is one of tending to the poor. It makes me wonder if the Pope is sending a strong message.
If this is a factor, I don’t think it is fair at all. Wearing beautiful vestments is not a lifestyle choice. This isn’t about his personal glory, or what he as a private individual likes to wear as he walks around town. Cardinal Burke is, like Pope Emeritus Benedict, of the camp that when celebrating the sacred rites of the Church, when acting “in the person of Christ”, it is right and proper, for the glory of God and out of respect for both the sacred office he holds and the rites he celebrates, to wear beautiful vestments. These beautiful vestments reflect the majesty of the rites they signify. Bishops of the Eastern Churches never ceased wearing beautiful, lavish vestments for the same reason.
 
So it’s OK if someone says, hey! How about doing things this way, because it is nicer, and my flock will like it better, and more might come to church every Sunday. Their souls don’t matter, they will feel better about themselves.

But it’s not OK to say, hey! Wait, that way is against the teaching of the church and if you get more bums in pews every Sunday it will be beacuse they have an incorrect understanding of what the church teaches? Their souls will be In danger. That won’t feel so good after their bodies die…

Sounds like a false economy to me. If Burkes demotion had anything to do with his views, that’s not exactly welcoming discussion, is it?

And I have to admit, I’d love to be able to wear the beautiful and graceful Edwardian styles of dresses. But I don’t because I’d look a fool. I see the point about the outmoded style of dress.
 
So it’s OK if someone says, hey! How about doing things this way, because it is nicer, and my flock will like it better, and more might come to church every Sunday. Their souls don’t matter, they will feel better about themselves.
I think that’s not a fair characterization of Pope Francis’s message. 🙂
 
If this is a factor, I don’t think it is fair at all. Wearing beautiful vestments is not a lifestyle choice. This isn’t about his personal glory, or what he as a private individual likes to wear as he walks around town. Cardinal Burke is, like Pope Emeritus Benedict, of the camp that when celebrating the sacred rites of the Church, when acting “in the person of Christ”, it is right and proper, for the glory of God and out of respect for both the sacred office he holds and the rites he celebrates, to wear beautiful vestments. These beautiful vestments reflect the majesty of the rites they signify. Bishops of the Eastern Churches never ceased wearing beautiful, lavish vestments for the same reason.
I see this argument as a cop-out. What I hear is "don’t dress lavishly, laypeople, but I’m allowed to dress like a pimp because “liturgy” and “tradition” and (insert high-falutin’ buzzword that’s supposed to not make the laity question, Manchurian-candidate style).

Yes, the clergy should look nice for the liturgy. But the rationalizations used for the attire of those like Burke would be like saying the laypeople are showing apathy unless they outdress Boss Hogg every single Sunday. I’m not going to say “it could have been sold to the poor”, as I’m not Judas. Beauty can be simple; it does not need to be gaudy.
 
I know. Im responding to Budeux.
No offense intended.
Greetings…There is a world of difference between Doctrine and Pastoral care. Being a bishop Cardinal Kasper has every right to minister pastorally to his flock. You confuse the two. He is an ordained priest of the Church and should he be afforded that respect by us as laity. Sending love and light…
 
If this is a factor, I don’t think it is fair at all. Wearing beautiful vestments is not a lifestyle choice. This isn’t about his personal glory, or what he as a private individual likes to wear as he walks around town. Cardinal Burke is, like Pope Emeritus Benedict, of the camp that when celebrating the sacred rites of the Church, when acting “in the person of Christ”, it is right and proper, for the glory of God and out of respect for both the sacred office he holds and the rites he celebrates, to wear beautiful vestments. These beautiful vestments reflect the majesty of the rites they signify. Bishops of the Eastern Churches never ceased wearing beautiful, lavish vestments for the same reason.
I see this argument as a cop-out. What I hear is "don’t dress lavishly, laypeople, but I’m allowed to dress like a pimp because “liturgy” and “tradition” and (insert high-falutin’ buzzword that’s supposed to not make the laity question, Manchurian-candidate style).

Yes, the clergy should look nice for the liturgy. But the rationalizations used for the attire of those like Burke would be like saying the laypeople are showing apathy unless they outdress Boss Hogg every single Sunday. I’m not going to say “it could have been sold to the poor”, as I’m not Judas. Beauty can be simple; it does not need to be gaudy.
 
Greetings…There is a world of difference between Doctrine and Pastoral care. Being a bishop Cardinal Kasper has every right to minister pastorally to his flock. You confuse the two. He is an ordained priest of the Church and should he be afforded that respect by us as laity. Sending love and light…
:rolleyes:

There is not a “world of difference” as if doctrine and pastoral care are two extremes of a continuum that looks like this:

doctrine<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->pastoral care

No.

Doctrine and pastoral care, while distinct things, are never separate. They are complementary and they go together; one without the other is impoverished and has no meaning.
 
👍
If this is a factor, I don’t think it is fair at all. Wearing beautiful vestments is not a lifestyle choice. This isn’t about his personal glory, or what he as a private individual likes to wear as he walks around town. Cardinal Burke is, like Pope Emeritus Benedict, of the camp that when celebrating the sacred rites of the Church, when acting “in the person of Christ”, it is right and proper, for the glory of God and out of respect for both the sacred office he holds and the rites he celebrates, to wear beautiful vestments. These beautiful vestments reflect the majesty of the rites they signify. Bishops of the Eastern Churches never ceased wearing beautiful, lavish vestments for the same reason.
No one is saying not to wear the correct vestments. But usage has changed. We do not have a Papal Coronation anymore nor do we use the peacock fans or the Sedia Gestatoria. Likewise cardinals don’t use expensive rings or crosses usually not do they wear the Galeto or the Cappa Magna our church made the conscious change not to
 
I see this argument as a cop-out. What I hear is "don’t dress lavishly, laypeople, but I’m allowed to dress like a pimp because “liturgy” and “tradition” and (insert high-falutin’ buzzword that’s supposed to not make the laity question, Manchurian-candidate style).

Yes, the clergy should look nice for the liturgy. But the rationalizations used for the attire of those like Burke would be like saying the laypeople are showing apathy unless they outdress Boss Hogg every single Sunday. I’m not going to say “it could have been sold to the poor”, as I’m not Judas. Beauty can be simple; it does not need to be gaudy.
Who cares if laypeople dress lavishly? I don’t think a person sins by doing that, as long as he doesn’t neglect his spiritual, family and financial obligations. Heck I like to dress snappily myself—today I just got some boots in the mail I’ve been waiting for.

Besides, I don’t think the clothes that Pope Francis himself wears, while not as ornate as those of his immediate Predecessor, are made of cheap fabrics and junky accoutrements… If B. Paul VI’s silver ferula were made today, which Francis is so fond of, I’ve no doubt it would be sold for many tens of thousands of dollars at retail.

But I really don’t see what any of this has to do with anything. I hardly think Pope Francis is going to start an “Inquisition of Bishops Who Dress Well.” (Btw I think some of what Cardinal Burke has worn is fabulously hideous, for example some of the floral vestments. Anyway, I don’t really care if he wears it ultimately.)
 
👍

No one is saying not to wear the correct vestments. But usage has changed. We do not have a Papal Coronation anymore nor do we use the peacock fans or the Sedia Gestatoria. Likewise cardinals don’t use expensive rings or crosses usually not do they wear the Galeto or the Cappa Magna our church made the conscious change not to
:confused: Not aware of any instruction that says, “You can’t wear a ring of quality over 14 karat, nor can it have a diamond in it.”

Galeros haven’t been regularly worn in centuries. Cappae magnae are still mentioned as being clothes proper to bishops in the (post-Conciliar) Ceremonial, they can still be worn.

Still confused as to what any of this means, already I’ve said I doubt Pope Francis is some anti-fashion zealot who moves bishops around because of what they wear.
 
:confused: Not aware of any instruction that says, “You can’t wear a ring of quality over 14 karat, nor can it have a diamond in it.”

Galeros haven’t been regularly worn in centuries. Cappae magnae are still mentioned as being clothes proper to bishops in the (post-Conciliar) Ceremonial, they can still be worn.

Still confused as to what any of this means, already I’ve said I doubt Pope Francis is some anti-fashion zealot who moves bishops around because of what they wear.
Bishops have never had diamond rings in my experience but the move is toward simplicity rather than rubies or garnets. In fact Cardinal Burke has got a Galero and has worn it. You can google that image. I haven’t seen a Cappa Magna since 1965 apart from on Cardinal Burke. I think to me it speaks of a pre Vatican II monarchical episcopate and I imagine that the imagery evokes that feeling in others too. It’s less fashon police and more a sensitivity to imagery
 
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Talk about the move in positions. What the cardinal wears is not the subject of this thread.
 
. I think to me it speaks of a pre Vatican II monarchical episcopate and I imagine that the imagery evokes that feeling in others too. It’s less fashon police and more a sensitivity to imagery
This is what I mean. I don’t see the ultra-fancy liturgical dress as being for God. It may be, but all I can see is that it’s for the clergy to wear. Even if the bishop or priest doesn’t wear fancy liturgical garb, that doesn’t denigrate his office or the Sacrament he is performing.

I think the same goes for the church or chapel where the Mass is said. I think some of the most beautiful ones I’ve been in have been the fairly simple ones. I don’t like having a bunch of images on the walls that have me looking every which way. I like the kind where the altar, tabernacle, and crucifix are the focal point.

But I digress.
 
Bishops have never had diamond rings in my experience but the move is toward simplicity rather than rubies or garnets. In fact Cardinal Burke has got a Galero and has worn it. You can google that image. I haven’t seen a Cappa Magna since 1965 apart from on Cardinal Burke. I think to me it speaks of a pre Vatican II monarchical episcopate and I imagine that the imagery evokes that feeling in others too. It’s less fashon police and more a sensitivity to imagery
Well I could just as easily say that design-less polyester chasubles 2 sizes too big evoke the feeling of cold corporate North American consumerism in me—"$49.99 for a chasuble what a deal!"—and it chills my blood. 🤷 If I see such a thing it grates my aesthete eyes for a minute but then I shove it out of my head.

My point is that for every complaint of ideology represented by a certain level of decoration of vestments that people can make, I can make an equally negative complaint of ideology represented by the opposite level of decoration.

If, traditionally throughout history, monarchs have preferred an aesthetic that is dripping with symbols and overloaded with shiny glitz, then traditionally since they have existed, modernists have preferred an aesthetic completely devoid of symbol and regularity of form. The issue is that monarchs are not necessarily bad while modernism is always necessarily bad… wait, no, I’m not saying what you think I’m saying.

But like I said none of this really matters, Cardinal Burke is not an evil boogeyman (srsly ppl?), Pope Francis is not a modernist, etc.
I think the same goes for the church or chapel where the Mass is said. I think some of the most beautiful ones I’ve been in have been the fairly simple ones. I don’t like having a bunch of images on the walls that have me looking every which way. I like the kind where the altar, tabernacle, and crucifix are the focal point.

But I digress.
Maybe that’s an issue of being able to focus. Visual stuff does not distract me. There can be 50 paintings in a church and none of it distracts me, none of it in my brain takes away from the centrality of the altar, tabernacle and crucifix. For the record I am not an aesthetic ideologue: I don’t think a church has to have a certain number of decorations or has to be decorated in a certain style to look good. For me the question ultimately is usually about taste: is the building in good taste or is it vulgar, either because of too much or too little decoration, or do the design elements just really not work together?

Then again there is something that distracts me: badly performed music, yuck.
 
MODERATOR NOTICE

Talk about the move in positions. What the cardinal wears is not the subject of this thread.
 
Pope Francis knows 100% of this story and the reasons that he has made this decision. We only know about 10% of the complete story I have the utmost respect and trust in Pope Francis and believe that whatever his reasons are, that he has made the right decision.
 
Who cares if laypeople dress lavishly? I don’t think a person sins by doing that, as long as he doesn’t neglect his spiritual, family and financial obligations. Heck I like to dress snappily myself—today I just got some boots in the mail I’ve been waiting for.

Besides, I don’t think the clothes that Pope Francis himself wears, while not as ornate as those of his immediate Predecessor, are made of cheap fabrics and junky accoutrements… If B. Paul VI’s silver ferula were made today, which Francis is so fond of, I’ve no doubt it would be sold for many tens of thousands of dollars at retail.

But I really don’t see what any of this has to do with anything. I hardly think Pope Francis is going to start an “Inquisition of Bishops Who Dress Well.” (Btw I think some of what Cardinal Burke has worn is fabulously hideous, for example some of the floral vestments. Anyway, I don’t really care if he wears it ultimately.)
Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
 
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