Conservative Catholics question Pope Francis’s approach

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I’m hoping the Pope’s approach is like that of St. Anthony Mary Claret (from his autobiography):
St. Anthony Mary Claret:
  1. Despite all I knew about the predominant local vices, I didn’t begin talking about them at the very outset; on the contrary, I saved such topics for later. I waited until I had won my audience over, and then instead of being offended when I told them about their vices and little idols, they took my advice and mended their ways. I had noticed that at the beginning of a mission many came for the novelty of it, to see what I was going to talk about. If they had heard me reprehending them for their cherished vices, they would have been cut to the quick, and in their irritation they would have gone off upset, never to return, wishing a plague on the missionary, the mission, and everyone attending it.
  2. It seems to me that in these troubled times a missionary has to act like a man cooking snails. He starts by putting the snails on the stove in a pot of cold water. Sensing the coolness of the water, the snails come out of their shells. Then, as the water heats up gradually to the boiling point, the snails are killed and cooked. But if the cook were careless enough to throw them at once into boiling water, they would retreat so deeply into their shells that no one would be able to get them out. This was the line I had to follow when dealing with sinners steeped in all sorts of vices, errors, blasphemies, and impieties. The first few days I would present virtue and truth in the brightest and most winsome colors, without saying so much as a word against vice and sinners. Seeing that they were being treated with tolerance and kindness, people would come back time and time again, so that afterwards, when I was more outspoken with them, they took it well, were converted, and confessed their sins. I met quite a few who came to the mission only out of curiosity, as well as others who came out of mischief, to see whether they could catch me in some slip; yet they were converted and made good confessions.
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Jaberwocky said:
So to make sure I understand you, he has said about accepting people back in to the Church but has not mentioned the need for repentance explicitly?

Is that correct?

To ask a honest question, would it be needed to reiterate that sinners are accepted back in to the Church itself considering that it too is Church teaching and would be included in the statement “Church teaching has not changed”?
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There’s no point in my stating the obvious yet again. You’ve obviously decided that Pope Francis is wrong to preach the Gospel in the way he does. You have that right. I have the right to disagree and go away.
 
Joe_5859 said:
Popcak brings up the parable of the Prodigal Son, which John Allen also used in a recent article. To me, that really encapsulates a lot of the reaction to Pope Francis. He is very popular among many groups of non-Catholics and disenfranchised Catholics. The only group that I have so far seen any degree of reticence from is some conservative/traditional Catholics. And it does strike me as similar to the grumbling over the attention being given to the prodigal children while they have been thanklessly toiling in the field all along.

The article also mentions Francis being less measured in some of his remarks. I can see that a little, too. In his recent talk to catechists, he says that he far prefers a Church that makes mistakes than one that is closed in on itself and gets sick because of the stale air. To me, this also sort of encapsulates Francis’ approach. He is more concerned with reaching out to those outside the Church than he is about getting misinterpreted by the secular press.

I agree that what Pope Francis doing is certainly not diametrically opposed to things that John Paul II and Benedict did. But the perception of a lot of people is that it is. I was recently talking with some “progressive” Catholics who are just ecstatic as they think that Francis will soon start lifting sanctions against certain Jesuit theologians and that they will no longer have to hide their support of women’s ordination for fear of being labeled heretics. I think it’s those types of reactions that concern conservative Catholics more than what the pope is actually doing and saying.
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If that is the same article I read about the Prodigal Son analogy, there was an excellent discussion in the comment section.
 
bsroufek said:
It’s not the Pope’s “approach”–who cares so much about that?

It’s his statements against the Gospels and Apostles, e.g. “atheists go to Heaven”, and his intent to allow the immoral into the Sacraments without repenting from their immoral behavior, and his suggestion that women should have high authority in the Church, which isn’t a big deal until they have authority over priests.

The Pope’s own statement, “I’ve never been a right winger”, sums up the position that tradition takes a back seat, whereas St. Paul teaches us to carefully teach and pass on the traditions handed on to us.

These things are good reason for Catholics to be offended, in my opinion. I’m not saying that everything the Pope does or teaches or says is wrong, but some of it most definitely is.
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I think you might be happier if you worked on getting over it. We need more Dorothy Days in our midst.
 
agnes_therese said:
There’s no point in my stating the obvious yet again. You’ve obviously decided that Pope Francis is wrong to preach the Gospel in the way he does. You have that right. I have the right to disagree and go away.
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I am actually not saying anything here. I just asked a question. (FYI: I respect and obey the Pope 100%)

Why do we have to assume that Pope Francis has not said it? I think its more reasonable to think that he has not just mentioned it.

What I find problematic however is that most Catholics today want to take this lack of mention to their advantage and make it look like Pope Francis is taking a fresh approach. That is obviously unacceptable.
 
  1. Despite all I knew about the predominant local vices, I didn’t begin talking about them at the very outset; on the contrary, I saved such topics for later. I waited until I had won my audience over, and then instead of being offended when I told them about their vices and little idols, they took my advice and mended their ways. I had noticed that at the beginning of a mission many came for the novelty of it, to see what I was going to talk about. If they had heard me reprehending them for their cherished vices, they would have been cut to the quick, and in their irritation they would have gone off upset, never to return, wishing a plague on the missionary, the mission, and everyone attending it.
  2. It seems to me that in these troubled times a missionary has to act like a man cooking snails. He starts by putting the snails on the stove in a pot of cold water. Sensing the coolness of the water, the snails come out of their shells. Then, as the water heats up gradually to the boiling point, the snails are killed and cooked. But if the cook were careless enough to throw them at once into boiling water, they would retreat so deeply into their shells that no one would be able to get them out. This was the line I had to follow when dealing with sinners steeped in all sorts of vices, errors, blasphemies, and impieties. The first few days I would present virtue and truth in the brightest and most winsome colors, without saying so much as a word against vice and sinners. Seeing that they were being treated with tolerance and kindness, people would come back time and time again, so that afterwards, when I was more outspoken with them, they took it well, were converted, and confessed their sins. I met quite a few who came to the mission only out of curiosity, as well as others who came out of mischief, to see whether they could catch me in some slip; yet they were converted and made good confessions.
Jaberwocky said:
I am actually not saying anything here. I just asked a question. (FYI: I respect and obey the Pope 100%)

Why do we have to assume that Pope Francis has not said it? I think its more reasonable to think that he has not just mentioned it.

What I find problematic however is that most Catholics today want to take this lack of mention to their advantage and make it look like Pope Francis is taking a fresh approach. That is obviously unacceptable.
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(I re-posted the quote that Genesis315 posted on the previous page for reference here)

I guess the question with Pope Francis is whether he is following this plan. Is he saving certain topics (like repentence) for later, and he will get to them eventually? Or will he never discuss these topics at all?
 
I know I could be wrong but what I am lead to believe is that what seems to be problematic for many people is them wanting to make arguments where there are non to be made. It is like they seem to take what Pope Francis says or does not say and try to create a “problem” with it and they go to great lengths to twist and spin and imply things to what he says and how others take what he says just to try and “prove” he is not being explicit enough in their eyes when in reality they know very well what he is saying and the Truth and good in what he is saying. They just seem bent on ignoring it for some reason or just refuse to use reason to understand it or see it or something. It is like they are trying or pretending to be willfully blind or ignorant or something… It’s like they have this hidden agenda or something and because of it they can not see or hear the Truth of what Pope Francis is doing and saying and the good in it…just not quite sure what it is but please know my prayers are with you as you…I just wish I could help you see or understand or sort out what ever it is that is keeping you from seeing it…I just can’t quite put my finger on it but will keep praying and pondering…maybe someday I will understand… Right now I just so hope and pray we all learn to trust him more and following his lead more instead of spending so much time and energy in hen pecking and critiquing him and everything he says and does…

I know I am just kind of rambling here… and probably venting in way …please forgive me if I am out of line for sharing…
Please keep me in your prayers too I could so use them these days…
 
simple_soul said:
I know I could be wrong but what I am lead to believe is that what seems to be problematic for many people is them wanting to make arguments where there are non to be made. It is like they seem to take what Pope Francis says or does not say and try to create a “problem” with it and they go to great lengths to twist and spin and imply things to what he says and how others take what he says just to try and “prove” he is not being explicit enough in their eyes when in reality they know very well what he is saying and the Truth and good in what he is saying. They just seem bent on ignoring it for some reason or just refuse to use reason to understand it or see it or something. It is like they are trying or pretending to be willfully blind or ignorant or something… It’s like they have this hidden agenda or something and because of it they can not see or hear the Truth of what Pope Francis is doing and saying and the good in it…just not quite sure what it is but please know my prayers are with you as you…I just wish I could help you see or understand or sort out what ever it is that is keeping you from seeing it…I just can’t quite put my finger on it but will keep praying and pondering…maybe someday I will understand… Right now I just so hope and pray we all learn to trust him more and following his lead more instead of spending so much time and energy in hen pecking and critiquing him and everything he says and does…

I know I am just kind of rambling here… and probably venting in way …please forgive me if I am out of line for sharing…
Please keep me in your prayers too I could so use them these days…
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I can only speak for myself here, but I think that a lot of us that have been concerned with some of his remarks don’t really have a problem with the remarks themselves per se, the concern is more over the inevitable reaction to the remarks from the media and the progressive side that we know will be coming. Like if the same remarks were made in a vacuum or in an ideal world where people wouldn’t take advantage of them, I don’t think anyone would be concerned.

For instance, with the “who am I to judge” gay people comment, I don’t think people have a concern with the statement itself. We all know and agree that none of us should judge or condemn our brother or sister. The concern is because we all know perfectly well that this statement will be used by some to justify homosexual behavior.
 
“In the past everything you heard from a pope was prepared or formally released. And that was intentional — not to say anything ad hoc. And it’s also intentional that this one does,” said Phil Lawler, editor of Catholic World News, a conservative news agency. “I think his entire focus is outside the church. That’s huge.”
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I think if we were really in a situation where the Pope’s entire focus was outside the Church, there would be serious reason to be concerned. The Pope is, of course, first and foremost the pastor of the Church and cannot neglect that responsibility.

But that’s not what’s really happening. He has addressed groups outside of the Church as well as those inside. His much cheered/maligned interview published in America was a mix of world view observations and very specific comments directed at Catholic priests. Also his address to Catholic doctors and another to the Catholic laity and their need to be politically active were very plainly internal instruction.
 
McCall1981 said:
I can only speak for myself here, but I think that a lot of us that have been concerned with some of his remarks don’t really have a problem with the remarks themselves per se, the concern is more over the inevitable reaction to the remarks from the media and the progressive side that we know will be coming. Like if the same remarks were made in a vacuum or in an ideal world where people wouldn’t take advantage of them, I don’t think anyone would be concerned.

For instance, with the “who am I to judge” gay people comment, I don’t think people have a concern with the statement itself. We all know and agree that none of us should judge or condemn our brother or sister. The concern is because we all know perfectly well that this statement will be used by some to justify homosexual behavior.
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McCall, I really don’t know what or how to respond to poster like you and a few others. All I read when I read your posts is more twist and spin and twist and spin…

Maybe I have just completely shut down or something but you sound to me like the clanging cymbals…I am not sure why that is…is it me or is it you…all I can do right now is pray about it…I really do not want to debate it so I guess I was just venting in my last post and I apologize for that…
 
Seems like there are many waiting in the wings for the next news story coming from the Vatican, some welcome it, and others can’t wait for the Holy Father to trip up.

One thing for sure, Pope Francis has got the world listening whether some agree with him or not, some paltry newspapers can only dream of coverage like this Pontiff is getting right now.
 
When Jesus was confronted with the woman caught in adultery, he didn’t dismiss or minimize the sixth commandment. Rather, he asked all of those present who was the one without sin that could throw the first stone. Rather than condemn, he wanted to teach that no one deserves not to be condemned - and that everyone is dependent on the mercy of. God. Mercy triumphs over judgement.

The Pope has not minimized the teaching of the Church on these issues, but I believe he is trying to emphasize that the Church is supposed to be the place where mercy is found, and not judgement.
 
Slaney said:
Seems like there are many waiting in the wings for the next news story coming from the Vatican, some welcome it, and others can’t wait for the Holy Father to trip up.

One thing for sure, Pope Francis has got the world listening whether some agree with him or not, some paltry newspapers can only dream of coverage like this Pontiff is getting right now.
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If you’re going to speak out, there’s always people in the shadows hoping you’ll make a mistake.

But what a testament to knowledge and wisdom!👍
 
On not being a “right-winger”:

Have you ever considered that the Church is not meant to be an exclusively conservative institution? She commends what is good in conservative or liberal or any other ideology, but denounces what is bad.
 
Cojuanco said:
On not being a “right-winger”:

Have you ever considered that the Church is not meant to be an exclusively conservative institution? She commends what is good in conservative or liberal or any other ideology, but denounces what is bad.
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Good point. I think the pope is trying his hardest to move religion out of the realm of politics and people are listening. The people I talk to are sick to death of mixing the two.
 
99th_Monkey said:
Good point. I think the pope is trying his hardest to move religion out of the realm of politics and people are listening. The people I talk to are sick to death of mixing the two.
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Oh, the Church will always be involved in politics to defend her rights, those of the faithful, and of all affected by the moral law. But Francis, like Benedict before him and John Paul before him, seems to want to emphasize that the Church should not be the court preachers of one faction or the other.

The problem is that some think that Christ necessarily lends unqualified support to one party or another, when instead he lends to support to people and ideas inasmuch as they think with Holy Church. Where they are opposed, the Church is opposed to them. Most of the world gets this these days, but we Americans are a quarrelsome bunch, even with the Holy Father.

One symptom of this is where some declare that to be a good Catholic one must support some party or another, and that (outside a party or man supporting ideologies like Communism) to do otherwise is heresy, disregarding the fact that this is not what the Pope Emeritus said in the context of elections.
 
Blessings everyone. I wanted to say that I came into the Roman Catholic Church through RCIA as an adult. I fell completely in love with the church as a young teen, as I attended with friends, which at that time they were still saying Mass in Latin. I felt as if I were truly in the presence of God. I have spent the last 22 years studying the church history, reading the Doctors of the Church, reading many spiritual books on various topics, and reading and using The Cathecism of the Catholic Church and The Holy Bible, several translations.

I would consider myself as a conservative, and I remain obedient to my Archbishop Gregory Aymond of New Orleans and to our Holy Father Pope Francis. It is by the power of the Holy Spirit and our Holy Priests to study and advance social order, but doctrine and tradition can not be changed.

Continue to fast and pray for our Holy Catholic Church, Our Holy Father Pope Francis and all our Bishops and Priests.

Follow the Bishop of Rome and he will strengthen you and guard you in your faith journey. Thanks Be To God. Jesus I Trust in You. Amen.
 
bsroufek said:
In Matt 12:37, “For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

It’s not Pope Francis’ style or approach, as many in the media state because they are so concerned with such things as “style” and “approach”. It’s his statements we must accept or not accept.

Not everything he says is objectionable, but some of it has definitely been objectionable to faithful Catholics, such as “You don’t have to believe in God to go to Heaven” and other statements which oppose The Gospel or The Apostles.
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The problem with proof-texting is that statements are always made in context. I could take both your statements and the Scriptures you quoted and if I took them as absolutes, prove that baptized infants do not go to Heaven.
 
Cojuanco said:
On not being a “right-winger”:

Have you ever considered that the Church is not meant to be an exclusively conservative institution? She commends what is good in conservative or liberal or any other ideology, but denounces what is bad.
Click to expand...
👍
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
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