"Conservative" versus "Good" Catholic

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Gingersnaps4 made a good point.

The basic thing is: People cannot choose to say God’s Law changes to suit the times.

That flies in the face of sound Christian teaching. God’s Law and Revelation are immutable and not subject to the whims of human will. We submit to God; not the other way around.

That’s self willed and what the devil wants.
 
Emeraldlady said:
50 years ago, if a political candidate had gone out to another country in order to undermine an opponent in a national election, they’d have been jailed for treason! And yet this outrageous breach of American sovereignty is today actually being defended because “the left are no good”. It’s mind boggling to outside nations who’ve seen America become great before, doing the actual opposite of what has been done here.
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I’m just curious but what do you think of the fact that Biden hasn’t been shamed into withdrawing as a candidate, after his on-camera confession Of telling Ukraine he was withholding $1B In aid if they didn’t fire the prosecutor who was investigating the company his son was involved with? There is much more objective evidence of that happening vs what the transcript of DJT’s phone call and the Ukrainian presidents statement about the whole thing shows, and he is still the left’s Golden Boy And going strong! They apparently have no moral issue with his actions. Does that seem odd to you? Would you vote for Biden over Trump, if it came down to it and they are the candidates?
 
I would hope that Catholics would maintain a list (actually written or just kept mentally) of how well the policies, etc. of each candidate align with Church teachings. In other words, Catholic teaching trumps party affiliation.

However, it’s not just a determination based on quantity (Republican candidate agrees with 3 teachings, Democrat candidate agrees with 4 teachings), but some teachings take priority over others, or are much more clear-cut than others. For example, abortion, being defined by the Church as an intrinsic evil, is non-negotiable for me. Particularly with 60 million babies dead since Roe v. Wade, it is far and away the number one issue for me. Immigration is not as clear cut. While yes, we are to welcome the immigrants, we also have the right to expect that those immigrants abide by our laws, and are sufficiently vetted to reduce the possibility of them doing harm to a U.S. citizen. Also, there are the horrible human trafficking stories, as well as drug running by the cartels. For those issues, it is a “balancing act” about which policy most closely adheres to Catholic teaching.

Before I became a Catholic, and before abortion became such an important issue for me, I voted for Carter because he was not afraid to openly discuss his Christianity. (Not saying I knew his position on abortion at the time. I’m just saying that I didn’t know enough to care one way or the other about it.)
 
MagdalenaRita said:
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Emeraldlady:
But this is what I’m finding so defeatist about modern Catholics. The left is not like it used to be so we’ll go and just abandon all of it and vote for the right which is equally unrecognisable.
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Even though I would agree that the political parties on the right are not perfect, nor completely in line with Catholic teaching either, their agenda, at least here in America, has not completey pushed God out as the left has. Here in America there isn’t a lot of choice in voting for some people. It’s the two party system and we have to choose the lesser of two evils. The evil in the party on the left just can’t be accepted. Where I live, my vote doesn’t matter at all though, so I can vote third party if feeling the need but few have that opportunity.
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See I just can’t imagine the founding fathers and their contemporaries submitting to “we have no choice” mentality. You say the right is more Christian, others say the left is more Christian yet there are really clear principles relayed to us by Jesus and the Apostles, that should make it easy for Christians to be united in demanding an appropriate representative. As I linked to above, Bishop Paprocki offered the solution to the voting dilemma by either voting only for a good candidate in their area and not voting for President or writing in the name of your desired candidate or not voting at all as a conscientious objection of sorts. Catholics just aren’t united enough to defeat their own factional identity.
 
Gingersnaps4 said:
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Emeraldlady:
50 years ago, if a political candidate had gone out to another country in order to undermine an opponent in a national election, they’d have been jailed for treason! And yet this outrageous breach of American sovereignty is today actually being defended because “the left are no good”. It’s mind boggling to outside nations who’ve seen America become great before, doing the actual opposite of what has been done here.
Click to expand...
I’m just curious but what do you think of the fact that Biden hasn’t been shamed into withdrawing as a candidate, after his on-camera confession Of telling Ukraine he was withholding $1B In aid if they didn’t fire the prosecutor who was investigating the company his son was involved with? There is much more objective evidence of that happening vs what the transcript of DJT’s phone call and the Ukrainian presidents statement about the whole thing shows, and he is still the left’s Golden Boy And going strong! They apparently have no moral issue with his actions. Does that seem odd to you? Would you vote for Biden over Trump, if it came down to it and they are the candidates?
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If Biden has done what Trump is accusing him of then he would have to withdraw. The Ukrainian President denies the Trump version of events. The succeeding prosecuter denies Trumps version of events. Ukraines National anti-Corruption Bureau set up with the assistance of the FBI said Hunter Biden was not under investigation. The way we hear things outside the US is that Shokin was a corrupt prosecutor and Ukrainians has been trying to oust him for a long time because he wasn’t investigating corruption in Ukraine.

 
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Larry1700 said:
While yes, we are to welcome the immigrants, we also have the right to expect that those immigrants abide by our laws, and are sufficiently vetted to reduce the possibility of them doing harm to a U.S. citizen. Also, there are the horrible human trafficking stories, as well as drug running by the cartels.
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What percentage of immigrants are even remotely involved in that?
 
Emeraldlady said:
See I just can’t imagine the founding fathers and their contemporaries submitting to “we have no choice” mentality. You say the right is more Christian, others say the left is more Christian
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I haven’t heard too many say the left is more Christian. I haven’t even heard the left say they are more Christian. They have pretty much vocally and on paper rejected Christ.
Emeraldlady said:
yet there are really clear principles relayed to us by Jesus and the Apostles, that should make it easy for Christians to be united in demanding an appropriate representative.
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Problem is, I don’t know who that would be and the world goes more “worldly” those who might be appropriate representatives will get pushed out of the way.
Emeraldlady said:
As I linked to above, Bishop Paprocki offered the solution to the voting dilemma by either voting only for a good candidate in their area and not voting for President or writing in the name of your desired candidate or not voting at all as a conscientious objection of sorts.
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I think he makes good points in the article and I certainly agree with him that we need to have that option of not voting or writing in a name or even choosing a third party candidate who would be a better choice. I don’t think he is saying that is what we should do but that we have that choice if that is what our situation and conscience tell us.
As I said, I have that option and hopefully my one little vote will at least be noticed but some do not have that option. They live in areas where not voting one way allows certain evils to flourish.
Emeraldlady said:
Catholics just aren’t united enough to defeat their own factional identity.
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This is very true. Sadly. We can see that here at CAF. The Church has become very divided.
 
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MagdalenaRita said:
This is very true. Sadly. We can see that here at CAF. The Church has become very divided.
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Yep . ‘good Catholics’ and Conservative Catholics share common Ground.

They’re Obedient to God and Church Catholics.
 
MagdalenaRita said:
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Emeraldlady:
See I just can’t imagine the founding fathers and their contemporaries submitting to “we have no choice” mentality. You say the right is more Christian, others say the left is more Christian
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I haven’t heard too many say the left is more Christian. I haven’t even heard the left say they are more Christian. They have pretty much vocally and on paper rejected Christ.
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Neither one has the moral high ground. While abortion is a major problem, it doesn’t cancel out the other moral dilemma’s that society faces. All have to treated of as Jesus told us. I’m reminded of the parable Matt 21…

21:28 “What do you think? A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 21:29 The boy answered, ‘I will not.’ But later he had a change of heart and went. 21:30 The father went to the other son and said the same thing. This boy answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but did not go. 21:31 Which of the two did his father’s will?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, tax collectors and prostitutes will go ahead of you into the kingdom of God! 21:32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him. But the tax collectors and prostitutes believed him. Although you saw this, you did not later change your minds and believe him.”

Paying lip service to values doesn’t actually translate to action in the long run.
 
EndTimes said:
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MagdalenaRita:
This is very true. Sadly. We can see that here at CAF. The Church has become very divided.
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Yep . ‘good Catholics’ and Conservative Catholics share common Ground.

They’re Obedient to God and Church Catholics.
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But ‘good’ Catholic would never try to undermine the authority of a Pope which many ‘conservative’ labelled Catholics do these days. In the past, the act of rejecting the authority of papal documents was considered dissenting. Dissenting now encompasses ‘conservatives’ and ‘liberals’ alike.
 
Emeraldlady said:
Neither one has the moral high ground. While abortion is a major problem, it doesn’t cancel out the other moral dilemma’s that society faces.
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Yes, I agree that neither has the moral high ground and neither party adheres to Catholic morals, we do know, though, that the left adheres to issues that if we agree with their platform, we could be endangering lives, souls and even putting our own souls in mortal danger. I don’t know about Australia but here in America the left has verbally and on paper removed God from their platform. Why would I join them?
Emeraldlady said:
21:28 “What do you think? A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 21:29 The boy answered, ‘I will not.’ But later he had a change of heart and went. 21:30 The father went to the other son and said the same thing. This boy answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but did not go. 21:31 Which of the two did his father’s will?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, tax collectors and prostitutes will go ahead of you into the kingdom of God! 21:32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him. But the tax collectors and prostitutes believed him. Although you saw this, you did not later change your minds and believe him.”
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While I certainly agree that not doing what is good or what we should do is a sin, doing what is evil is still a sin also.
 
Emeraldlady said:
But ‘good’ Catholic would never try to undermine the authority of a Pope which many ‘conservative’ labelled Catholics do these days.
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So you say-so… 🙂

I’ve a feeling that you do not know where and when and how
terms such as “good” and “conservative” came to be…

Obedient Catholics fully reject some of his possible advisors -
as well as any Clergy into the condemned Liberalism and Modernism…

_
 
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EndTimes said:
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Emeraldlady:
But ‘good’ Catholic would never try to undermine the authority of a Pope which many ‘conservative’ labelled Catholics do these days.
Click to expand...
So you say-so… 🙂

I’ve a feeling that you do not know where and when and how
terms such as “good” and “conservative” came to be…

Obedient Catholics fully reject some of his possible advisors -
as well as any Clergy into the condemned Liberalism and Modernism…

_
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Are you familiar with Catholics who author and read Lifesite News. A lot of them outright reject the authority of Pope Francis.
 
Emeraldlady said:
Are you familiar with Catholics who author and read Lifesite News. A lot of them outright reject the authority of Pope Francis.
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I’m very familiar with False Theologians whom over the past upwards of 50 years have insinuated themselves into positions of great influence and who’ve introduced grave Theological and Liturgical and Sexual Abuses into the minds of millions of Catholics.
 
EndTimes said:
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Emeraldlady:
Are you familiar with Catholics who author and read Lifesite News. A lot of them outright reject the authority of Pope Francis.
Click to expand...
I’m very familiar with False Theologians whom over the past upwards of 50 years have insinuated themselves into positions of great influence and who’ve introduced grave Theological and Liturgical and Sexual Abuses into the minds of millions of Catholics.
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But those come down on both sides of those labels conservative and liberal. And today, there are Cardinals on both sides using their position to introduce grave teachings and misunderstandings into the minds of Catholics. A “good” Catholic was a Catholic that recognised the authority of the Magisterium in communion with the Pope and thought “with the Church”.
 
“Emeraldlady said:
But those come down on both sides of those labels conservative and liberal.
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That’s not been my experience at all.

“Good Catholics” goes back many many moons…
Those who intended to be obedient to the Catholic Church
before there was ever a hint of anything negative about the Pope or even most/all priests.

Liberals in the manner in which they first were given a ‘name’ are very anti-authoritarian
and have now gained the upper hand and appear to be overtaking the Vatican…
and have total disregard for the Magisterium…
even to the point of IMHO promoting APOSTASY…

I never even employ the term conservative
  • viewing it as having gained negative associations from Modernists…
NOTE … That said, I’m not saying the pope is in partnership with them.
 
Emeraldlady said:
How did this very politicised version of Catholicism come about and should we fight urgently to dis-identify with it in every way?
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Abortion. Liberal parties (Democrats, Labor Party, etc) are married to abortion.

Until Catholics put the Church & pro-life first, this crap will continue.

If all pro-life Catholics would simply unite under one (viable) political party to end abortion, then we could actually have a viable Catholic Party. But as long as Catholics put their political party before the Church, nothing is going to change.
 
Emeraldlady said:
Dissenting now encompasses ‘conservatives’ and ‘liberals’ alike.
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This is very true. Dissention can include rejecting Scripture, rejecting Tradition or rejecting the Magisterium or all three. This dissension sadly isn’t just in the laity but in the clerics themselves.
 
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