Conservatives at odds with Vatican over condoms

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"NEW YORK – Faced with a changing outlook from Pope Benedict XVI on condoms and their role in preventing the spread of HIV, many prominent conservative Roman Catholics in the U.S. are rejecting the Vatican’s own explanation of what the pope said.

“Several orthodox Catholics said they would only accept a more formal papal pronouncement. Others insisted that journalists were purposely misrepresenting Benedict’s comments. Some questioned whether the papal spokesman, the Rev. Frederico Lombardi, accurately quoted the pope.”

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101124/ap_on_re/us_rel_pope_condoms_conservatives
 
As I’ve said in another thread, many Catholics are in the denial stage–that they are saying, “This can’t be happening” and wish Pope Benedict isn’t saying what he is trying to say, or else that media somehow got it wrong. It seems that it is being confirmed now by the news here (and I posted that before even reading the news).
 
As I’ve said in another thread, many Catholics are in the denial stage–that they are saying, “This can’t be happening” and wish Pope Benedict isn’t saying what he is trying to say, or else that media somehow got it wrong. It seems that it is being confirmed now by the news here (and I posted that before even reading the news).
in denial of what? whatever the pope said, it is not a teaching of the Church, period.
 
"NEW YORK – Faced with a changing outlook from Pope Benedict XVI on condoms and their role in preventing the spread of HIV, many prominent conservative Roman Catholics in the U.S. are rejecting the Vatican’s own explanation of what the pope said.

“Several orthodox Catholics said they would only accept a more formal papal pronouncement. Others insisted that journalists were purposely misrepresenting Benedict’s comments. Some questioned whether the papal spokesman, the Rev. Frederico Lombardi, accurately quoted the pope.”

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101124/ap_on_re/us_rel_pope_condoms_conservatives
I think this is appropriate for this man to resign or be fired for doing what he did.

“Lawler and many other orthodox Catholics argued that the newspaper undermined the pope by quoting him without the proper context. Lawler stood by his criticism and call for the editor’s resignation after Lombardi’s news conference Tuesday.”
 
As I’ve said in another thread, many Catholics are in the denial stage–that they are saying, “This can’t be happening” and wish Pope Benedict isn’t saying what he is trying to say, or else that media somehow got it wrong. It seems that it is being confirmed now by the news here (and I posted that before even reading the news).
What exactly did the Pope say that was so revolutionary and radical? Did he say HIV discordant married couples can use condoms to protect the other from getting the disease? No. Did he say condoms where moral? No. Did he say condoms are not bad? No. Did he say if people are going to have sex anyway, use a condom. No.

You can switch the ‘‘man’’ with a woman or a transsexual.

There are two things going on here: 1) A man is intending to reduce the risk of infection. 2) The man is putting on a condom. In which of these things does the Pope say there may be a first step toward a more human way of living sexuality?

If you answered “in the putting on of a condom” then you can’t read.

lovingit.co.uk/2010/11/what-pope-benedict-said-about-condoms.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+lovingit+%28Catholic+and+Loving+it!%29

He gave an example of a prostitute, the intention of wanting to reduce the risk of infection is a good intention, but the action of wearing a condom is still wrong.
 
whatever the pope said, it is not a teaching of the Church, period.
Interestingly, one hears the same phrase spoken by both traditionalist and progressive Catholics on a variety of topics, not just this one. I guess it depends on whose ox is gored. :hmmm:
 
What exactly did the Pope say that was so revolutionary and radical? Did he say HIV discordant married couples can use condoms to protect the other from getting the disease? No. Did he say condoms where moral? No. Did he say condoms are not bad? No. Did he say if people are going to have sex anyway, use a condom. No.
It amuses me that, by some strange logic, some lay Catholics seem to have it all figured out when Catholic bishops are still struggling to make out what the Pope actually said. If you even read the article, it is interesting what it said there:

Haas, also a moral theologian, said he fielded calls all day Tuesday from bishops confused by what Lombardi had said. Benedict’s comments come at a time when bishops in the United States are intensely focused on upholding Catholic orthodoxy on marriage and sexuality.

Hhmm…so if the bishops are confused, then how come you had it all figured out? 🤷

And as Fr. Lombardi himself clarified: At a news conference Tuesday in Rome, Lombardi said Benedict knew his comments would provoke intense debate, and that the pope meant for his remarks to apply not just to male prostitutes, but also “if you’re a man, a woman, or a transsexual.”

So, it seems it isn’t for male prostitutes only, but also for practically everyone else. No wonder people are so confused now.
 
It amuses me that, by some strange logic, some lay Catholics seem to have it all figured out when Catholic bishops are still struggling to make out what the Pope actually said. If you even read the article, it is interesting what it said there:

Haas, also a moral theologian, said he fielded calls all day Tuesday from bishops confused by what Lombardi had said. Benedict’s comments come at a time when bishops in the United States are intensely focused on upholding Catholic orthodoxy on marriage and sexuality.

Hhmm…so if the bishops are confused, then how come you had it all figured out? 🤷

And as Fr. Lombardi himself clarified: At a news conference Tuesday in Rome, Lombardi said Benedict knew his comments would provoke intense debate, and that the pope meant for his remarks to apply not just to male prostitutes, but also “if you’re a man, a woman, or a transsexual.”

So, it seems it isn’t for male prostitutes only, but also for practically everyone else. No wonder people are so confused now.
the old say. the more you talk the more mistakes you make. it is best to just shut up.
 
Interestingly, one hears the same phrase spoken by both traditionalist and progressive Catholics on a variety of topics, not just this one. I guess it depends on whose ox is gored. :hmmm:
since VII, many thinks that they all chiefs. that is what happens when everyone consider themselves to be an authority in the Church. too many speaking at the same time.

the progressives are just waiting for some statement like this, so they can run wild to forster their agenda of changing the teachings of the Church. so, i am not surprise that this has become a big deal. let’s take for example VII, so many misinformation got out and became the norm, yet we know that those who went along with the misinformation have done great damage to the Church.
 
It amuses me that, by some strange logic, some lay Catholics seem to have it all figured out when Catholic bishops are still struggling to make out what the Pope actually said. If you even read the article, it is interesting what it said there:

Haas, also a moral theologian, said he fielded calls all day Tuesday from bishops confused by what Lombardi had said. Benedict’s comments come at a time when bishops in the United States are intensely focused on upholding Catholic orthodoxy on marriage and sexuality.

Hhmm…so if the bishops are confused, then how come you had it all figured out? 🤷

And as Fr. Lombardi himself clarified: At a news conference Tuesday in Rome, Lombardi said Benedict knew his comments would provoke intense debate, and that the pope meant for his remarks to apply not just to male prostitutes, but also “if you’re a man, a woman, or a transsexual.”

So, it seems it isn’t for male prostitutes only, but also for practically everyone else. No wonder people are so confused now.
Are the bishops confused? Archbishop Dolon has come out and said that nothing has changed in Catholic teaching and the Pope could not change it even if wanted to.

catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=8376

nytimes.com/2010/11/23/us/23dolan.html?_r=2

The male was translated wrong from the German. No he didn’t mean practically everyone else. Whether it be women, men or transsexuals, the hypothetical situation was that for a prostitute, and Michael Voris of RealCatholic TV thought that this meant a HIV positive prostitute.
 
since VII, many thinks that they all chiefs. that is what happens when everyone consider themselves to be an authority in the Church. too many speaking at the same time.

the progressives are just waiting for some statement like this, so they can run wild to forster their agenda of changing the teachings of the Church. so, i am not surprise that this has become a big deal. let’s take for example VII, so many misinformation got out and became the norm, yet we know that those who went along with the misinformation have done great damage to the Church.
From my perspective, it is the conservatives who are running wild, trying to interpret the Pope’s comments to align with their view that the Church teaches a black-and-white, absolute prohibition on the use of condoms – or doing damage control by inferring that the Pope is mistaken and should not be seen as offering authoritative guidance. Such conservatives come off as literally “more Catholic than the Pope.” Welcome to the murky swamp that is real-life moral theology: few if any bright lines or absolutes, where intelligent people balance considerations, argue corner cases, and attempt to use good judgment. Not at all a safe and well-lit place.
 
As I’ve said in another thread, many Catholics are in the denial stage–that they are saying, “This can’t be happening” and wish Pope Benedict isn’t saying what he is trying to say, or else that media somehow got it wrong. It seems that it is being confirmed now by the news here (and I posted that before even reading the news).
Why do Orthodox only come into Catholic news and discussions to bash Catholics? That’s terribly un-Christian. I think Orthodoxy is fantastic and full of holiness and spiritual depth, possibly more so than my dear Catholicism. But this condescending superiority complex that you and other Orthodox seem to have to Catholicism alienates me from getting to know your fine Church. Perhaps it’s just me trying to find an excuse not to go and observe. But it’s something I’ve noticed, and I find it abhorrent, especially for a church so close to Catholicism.

Anyway, I still personally believe he spoke about the development of moral conscience. Someone who realises that they are harming others by screwing them and that they should protect them at least by wearing a condom is developing their moral mind. And maybe someday they’ll realise they should stop screwing altogether.

But in any case, we should let the Pope tell us what he meant to say. I’m sure he’s as frustrated as the rest of Catholicism. Besides, even if he said what the liberal media thinks he said, it’s not ex cathedra nor official Catholic teaching. It’s his opinion, not agreed to by the people of the Church nor set as word and law.
 
From my perspective, it is the conservatives who are running wild, trying to interpret the Pope’s comments to align with their view that the Church teaches a black-and-white, absolute prohibition on the use of condoms – or doing damage control by inferring that the Pope is mistaken and should not be seen as offering authoritative guidance. Such conservatives come off as literally “more Catholic than the Pope.” Welcome to the murky swamp that is real-life moral theology: few if any bright lines or absolutes, where intelligent people balance considerations, argue corner cases, and attempt to use good judgment. Not at all a safe and well-lit place.
This conservative/orthodox Catholic is not running wild. I’m just sitting back waiting for the Pope to clarify his own statements and the Church teaching against the use of artificial birth control…including condoms.
 
Much ado about nothing.

He said use of condoms in the instance of male prostitutes can be a first step in the direction of a moralization

E.g. If a mugger beats people up with aluminum baseball bats, and one day decides it’d be nicer to beat people up with plastic bats instead, it’s still clearly evil, but it might be a step in the direction of a moralization.
 
There are two things going on here: 1) A man is intending to reduce the risk of infection. 2) The man is putting on a condom. In which of these things does the Pope say there may be a first step toward a more human way of living sexuality?

If you answered “in the putting on of a condom” then you can’t read.

lovingit.co.uk/2010/11/what-pope-benedict-said-about-condoms.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+lovingit+%28Catholic+and+Loving+it!%29

He gave an example of a prostitute, the intention of wanting to reduce the risk of infection is a good intention, but the action of wearing a condom is still wrong.
No matter how you put it, the Pope’s comments (if accurate) are a departure from traditional Catholic moral theology, as it has been understood since the beginning of the Church. The “good” intention you speak of is not a good at all.

Traditional Catholic Philosophy/Theology sees an action (as in this case) as good (or evil/bad) only if the three determinates of morality are good. 1/The end which the agent has in view, 2/ the means he takes so secure his end, 3/ the circumstances in which he acts. If ANY of these determinates are bad/evil, then the act will be bad/evil since in Catholic moral philosophy “evil is predicted of any defect”.

You say that: "wanting to reduce the risk of infection is a good intention" - This is not as clear cut as you make out. Perhaps you are trying to simplfy your argument, however it would be false to assert that this intention is good - period. The first and most important determinant of morality is the end of the agent. The end is the final cause and is more willed than any other elements of the act, thus if the end is evil - the whole act is evil.

“wanting to reduce the risk of infection” may be one of the reasons for the act - there are many others, which are not moral at all. Also, even if this were the primary reason for the act mentioned, it does not follow that it is the only intention. The act of “wanting to reduce the risk of infection” by this means presupposes the intention of a unquestionably intrinsically evil and immoral act - i.e. contraception or worse sodomy. Thus, the end cannot in any way (without repudiating traditional Catholic moral philosophy/theology) be considered “good”.

As for the Means taken: I do not need to explain this. the Church’s teachings is well know. This method, or any other method of contraception can never be morally “good”.

The Cirsumstances I likewise have no need to explain. It goes without saying that these circumstances do not permit the act to be morally “good” no matter even if the end and the*** means*** both be good.

Thus on all of the three determinates of morallity, the act fails. Thus, even the intention cannot be considered “good”.

I am very disapointed with the Pope’s words, if indeed you and others (including the Vatican) are reporting them accurately. They have only succeeded in causing scandal, no matter how good his intention was. I cannot judge the Pope, nor do I claim to, but when a teaching or viewpoint (this wasnt an official teaching) contradicts the view of tradtional Catholic teaching on the matter, which has not changed, then it cannot and should not be accepted by Catholics.

I have briefly stated why the Pope is not inline with Church teaching in this regard and I know that Catholics are not bound to accept his view, however there are Catholics who do not know their faith and many more non-catholics who will and have misinterpreted this statement and it has been the cause of scandal. With that said, I think there is also scandal caused amoung those who DO understand what the Pope aparantly said, and know it is not inline with Church teaching. Those who say “well the Pope says it so it is infallable, or it cannot be against Church teaching” are simply uneducated in their own faith.
 
No matter how you put it, the Pope’s comments (if accurate) are a departure from traditional Catholic moral theology, as it has been understood since the beginning of the Church. The “good” intention you speak of is not a good at all.

Traditional Catholic Philosophy/Theology sees an action (as in this case) as good (or evil/bad) only if the three determinates of morality are good. 1/The end which the agent has in view, 2/ the means he takes so secure his end, 3/ the circumstances in which he acts. If ANY of these determinates are bad/evil, then the act will be bad/evil since in Catholic moral philosophy “evil is predicted of any defect”.

You say that: "wanting to reduce the risk of infection is a good intention" - This is not as clear cut as you make out. Perhaps you are trying to simplfy your argument, however it would be false to assert that this intention is good - period. The first and most important determinant of morality is the end of the agent. The end is the final cause and is more willed than any other elements of the act, thus if the end is evil - the whole act is evil.

“wanting to reduce the risk of infection” may be one of the reasons for the act - there are many others, which are not moral at all. Also, even if this were the primary reason for the act mentioned, it does not follow that it is the only intention. The act of “wanting to reduce the risk of infection” by this means presupposes the intention of a unquestionably intrinsically evil and immoral act - i.e. contraception or worse sodomy. Thus, the end cannot in any way (without repudiating traditional Catholic moral philosophy/theology) be considered “good”.

As for the Means taken: I do not need to explain this. the Church’s teachings is well know. This method, or any other method of contraception can never be morally “good”.

The Cirsumstances I likewise have no need to explain. It goes without saying that these circumstances do not permit the act to be morally “good” no matter even if the end and the*** means*** both be good.

Thus on all of the three determinates of morallity, the act fails. Thus, even the intention cannot be considered “good”.

I am very disapointed with the Pope’s words, if indeed you and others (including the Vatican) are reporting them accurately. They have only succeeded in causing scandal, no matter how good his intention was. I cannot judge the Pope, nor do I claim to, but when a teaching or viewpoint (this wasnt an official teaching) contradicts the view of tradtional Catholic teaching on the matter, which has not changed, then it cannot and should not be accepted by Catholics.

I have briefly stated why the Pope is not inline with Church teaching in this regard and I know that Catholics are not bound to accept his view, however there are Catholics who do not know their faith and many more non-catholics who will and have misinterpreted this statement and it has been the cause of scandal. With that said, I think there is also scandal caused amoung those who DO understand what the Pope aparantly said, and know it is not inline with Church teaching. Those who say “well the Pope says it so it is infallable, or it cannot be against Church teaching” are simply uneducated in their own faith.
You are right. I think the holy father is under a lot of stress and pressure from liberals all around him. I wish i could hear the leaders of the Church preach repentance and not trying to justify the sins of man. whatever happened to the old teaching of Jesus, repent and be baptized for the salvation of your souls. why is it that we hear so much about worldly things and solutions but very little about what God wants from us.
 
From my perspective, it is the conservatives who are running wild, trying to interpret the Pope’s comments to align with their view that the Church teaches a black-and-white, absolute prohibition on the use of condoms – or doing damage control by inferring that the Pope is mistaken and should not be seen as offering authoritative guidance. Such conservatives come off as literally “more Catholic than the Pope.” Welcome to the murky swamp that is real-life moral theology: few if any bright lines or absolutes, where intelligent people balance considerations, argue corner cases, and attempt to use good judgment. Not at all a safe and well-lit place.
Conservative? There are either real Catholics or non Catholics. We are all just trying to interpret what the Pope meant.
 
Why do Orthodox only come into Catholic news and discussions to bash Catholics? That’s terribly un-Christian. I think Orthodoxy is fantastic and full of holiness and spiritual depth, possibly more so than my dear Catholicism. But this condescending superiority complex that you and other Orthodox seem to have to Catholicism alienates me from getting to know your fine Church. Perhaps it’s just me trying to find an excuse not to go and observe. But it’s something I’ve noticed, and I find it abhorrent, especially for a church so close to Catholicism.

Anyway, I still personally believe he spoke about the development of moral conscience. Someone who realises that they are harming others by screwing them and that they should protect them at least by wearing a condom is developing their moral mind. And maybe someday they’ll realise they should stop screwing altogether.

But in any case, we should let the Pope tell us what he meant to say. I’m sure he’s as frustrated as the rest of Catholicism. Besides, even if he said what the liberal media thinks he said, it’s not ex cathedra nor official Catholic teaching. It’s his opinion, not agreed to by the people of the Church nor set as word and law.
Here, here.
 
Conservative? There are either real Catholics or non Catholics. We are all just trying to interpret what the Pope meant.
Right. Conservative and liberal are political terms - hence liberal or conservative media or parties, but we are either orthodox or heterodox as Catholics. An orthodox Catholic can be politically conservative or liberal, and one who is heterodox can also be the same.
 
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