Conservatives call on GOP leaders to step down

[seekerz]

Your post is a joke, Seekerz. Considering that Majority Leader of the Senate Harry Joe McCarthy Reid, said, " I have evidence that Romney did not pay any taxes" (when he didn’t and Vice President Joe Biden pandering to a black audience, " they’re (the Republicans) going to put y’all back in chains." Obama saying the Republicans “don’t care” about clean air and kids with autism. The history of leftist/liberal demonization of conservatives is long and shameful. You might get some on the fringes saying similar things about Obama but last I checked, they weren’t high up in the GOP, were they? All you got from Romney/Ryan was " Obama is a nice guy, but his ideas were wrong."

Ishii

During this campaign, I’m pretty sure my ears were not occluded with wax, so have fun with your interpretations. I think in technicolor, black and white is so retro. 100% good guys and 100% bad guys only exist in western movies and in Chuck Norris films.

 

[seekerz]

Once again, Seekerz, you resort to strawmen and caricatures. I never said the only sin is abortion. However, it is the salient sin. A society that aborts its unborn is an unjust society. As Mother Theresa said, I a mother can kill her unborn child then I can kill you and you can kill me. Your party supports keeping the practice legal. And your president doesn’t think that the babies that survive abortions should be allowed to live. Yet you support him. It boggles the mind, Seekerz. Being against abortion is a no-brainer, Seekerz. Join me in opposing it and we’ll move on to other topics like gay marriage, taxes and stuff. And we can even agree to disagree and be good Catholics. But vote for a president that supports infanticide and I’ll call you on it. Catholics shouldn’t do that. It is not necessary for you to support a president who votes for infanticide out of a misguided allegiance to the Democrat party, or out of a misguided hatred of the Republican party (if that is what’s motivating you).

Ishii

You can call me on whatever you like, accuse me of whatever you like, question my motives for the remainder of the term of the legitimately elected President of the United States, that will not change the fact that I have made a valid decision as a Catholic to support the candidate I saw as the better one for the job.

If you have a problem with that, take it up with the Church official - not the self-made popes who are a dime a dozen on the internet since Tuesday night!

 

[seekerz]

Pro life legislation is effective in the abortion rate. Review of abortion info from 1985 to 2005 found ‘solid evidence’ laws that restrict abortion ‘have an impact on the childbearing decisions of women,’ Michael J New said in State Politics and Policy Quarterly, a peer reviewed publication targetted at state policymakers. Mr New found parental notification laws correlated with 15% decline in in state abortion rates for minors; Informed consent laws reduced in state abortions by 5 - 7%; limiting Medicaid funding for abortion reduced abortion by 9% in states with this law etc

In Minnesota because they have elected many pro life candidates to the legislature and pro life laws they have a 21% decline in abortion in the last 5 years

Abolitionist William Wilberforce did not wait to try and only change hearts on slavery, he sought to change the law

Bishops have said the economy is not a proportionate reason to vote for a pro abortion candidate; who you think will have better policies in place to take care of the economically poor is not a proportionate to vote for a pro abortion candidate

Did you see the Wilberforce movie? He was years ‘changing hearts and minds’ and even after all of that the legislation he got went through because of some fortuitous events that all fell together at the right time.

Of course official/in-state rates will fall with local legislation…that does not necessarily mean that babies are not being aborted. The intention is not to manipulate numbers - it is to decrease actual deaths, no? Right here in Texas the official numbers must be down with the recent legislative changes…so women who want abortions are turning elsewhere - to the pharmacists of Mexico. I know many people who will dismiss that; my question is why: is a life lost in an abortion done in the shadows any less a life?

Tell me, just imagine for a moment that abortion is made 100% illegal in the entire US - no exceptions, do you think a doctor is going to write “abortion” in the diagnosis section of the chart? No, he’s going to use some fancy run-around term, like ‘heavy periods’. Do you think a pregnant woman is going to the ER to say she took meds to have an abortion or rather that she was lifting something heavy, and just started bleeding? Hearts and minds are what make the abortion decision and hearts and minds are what must reject it for any real headway.

 

[seekerz]

You can take Seekers word if you like, I’ll take the Magisterium’s. There are no proportionate reasons to vote for an extreme pro-abortion candidate over a much more pro-life one; not perfect by any means, but a great start as Paul Ryan his Catholic purely pro-life partner stated.

This is a misuse of the proportionate reasoning. This is intended to make determinations between candidates in issues which are not intrinsic evils. When the issues are intrinsic evils, the Church tells you how you can and cannot vote. In the case of the dem party platform, they have disqualified themselves from a Catholic vote by supporting almost all of the intrinsic evils.

If both candidates were on the same page for every IE issue, then the remaining issues can be looked at and proportionate reasoning used to decide.

The Magisterium said that there are no proportionate reasons to vote for Obama or someone like him? Where? When? In what document?

 

[seekerz]

I agree Seekerz, it’s not about what the Church teaches, it’s about what others mistakenly teach in error. Proportionate reasons do not exist to choose abortion defenders over abortion limiters/eliminators.

The democrat platform speaks for itself, a well formed conscience cannot for it and you cannot choose the candidate without choosing the platform.

You cannot choose the candidate without choosing the platform, according to whom Deacon? And just what is an abortion limiter/eliminator? A man who has to be reminded of his abortion position? Never mind that he has not explained how he would limit/eliminate abortion.

If you want to stand on words and promises that’s YOUR choice. It’s not mine. I prefer to deal in what is based on some appreciation of the real world - not the world that I wish existed.

 

[BroomWagon]

Sour Grapes: townhall.com/columnists/rachelalexander/2012/11/11/obama_likely_won_reelection_through_election_fraud/page/2

Still, some of this went on, undoubtedly, Romney has an army of lawyers. The Secretaries of State have to certify results. May be some of this with Allen West. Some points none the less, merit consideration.

 

[ProVobis]

Great article by Archbishop Chaput though, where he talks about faithful Catholics soon will not be able to support either party, the day is fast approaching etc. That I can concur with.

It will certainly make things easier for us, IMO. It will be like it was on Fridays. But instead of saying “I’m Catholic, can’t eat meat today.” we can say, “I’m Catholic, don’t even give me a ballot with a Republican or Democrat on it.”

 

[ringil]

My 97 year-old Grandmother receives more that your Mother In Law in Social Security (she worked until she turned 90). She receives no other income and has a life estate in one of my Father’s properties after she sold her home. She has never accepted public assistance. She worked two jobs for about forty years before reducing her workload. I admire her greatly. I am implying nothing derogatory about your relative because I know nothing of her circumstances.

Oh, no need to worry about offending me in speaking about my delightful MIL!

Anyway, I’ve seen these phones and they s#$k big time.

I need to see some sources of 4G phones being given as “Obamaphones”- I’ll use the silly term.

Not directed at you specifically Tampa- unless you have made the statement that folks are being given snazzy phones.

I’m too lazy to go through the posts and see where this came up.

 

[ringil]

Ringil, I’m white. They didn’t.

You know what’s weird though. Some on the Right will jump to defend her cringe-worthy comment.

 

[ishii]

During this campaign, I’m pretty sure my ears were not occluded with wax, so have fun with your interpretations. I think in technicolor, black and white is so retro. 100% good guys and 100% bad guys only exist in western movies and in Chuck Norris films.

You can call me on whatever you like, accuse me of whatever you like, question my motives for the remainder of the term of the legitimately elected President of the United States, that will not change the fact that I have made a valid decision as a Catholic to support the candidate I saw as the better one for the job.

If you have a problem with that, take it up with the Church official - not the self-made popes who are a dime a dozen on the internet since Tuesday night!

I think you protest too much, Seekerz. I offered you concrete examples of unfair, untruthful attacks on Romney and the GOP, and you offer…nothing but an unartful dodge. You can spin it all you want - call Obama “the better man for the job” but careful of exactly what job you’re referring to, Seekerz: Obama, joined at the hip with NARAL and Kathleen Sebelius, will certainly do a better job to keep it legal for a woman to snuff out her unborn child and also force the Catholic church to violate its own conscience or, abandon its hospitals, charities, etc.

You’re right: Obama won, and you voted for him. Now we get to see what your vote has wrought.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

The 60 vote majority was always a fallacy because the Democratic Party has people of varying views on things. Democrats do not walk in lockstep. Take healthcare for instance. Not all Democrats in the Senate at the time or who caucused with the Democrats were in favor of a strong public option. I don’t recall much support on any parts of healthcare though from the other side.

To give you a start how about Mr West calling Congressional members of the Democratic Party, Communists. Of course he said Democrat Party. But I realize though a certain segment of the electorate likes the tone of Mr West, Ishii. They seem to be the ones who challenge more moderate Republicans in primaries.

Well I rest my case, Cmatt: I offer you examples of the vice president, the president, and the Senate majority leader viciously attacking the Romney/Ryan ticket. This is in contrast to Romney and Ryan saying basically that Obama is a good man who means well but is wrong. They didn’t attack him personally like your side did.

Regarding the 60 seat majority, you’re wrong there too: if the Democrats had some senators who didn’t support Obama, there were certainly Republicans who did. A 60 seat majority is a 60 seat majority. A bit phony to complain about Republican “obstruction” when the Dems had a filibuster proof majority. Obama’s attitude toward bi-partisanship can be summed up in his comments to John McCain who was expressing concerns about Obamacare: “the elections over, John.” In other words: “my way or the highway.”

Ishii

 

[ishii]

You really think so? Republicans were the ones who made abortion legal in the first place, Nixon and Reagan being the worst, but have managed to finagle money out of the pro-life camps anyway.

Ladies and Gentlement, logic, by Provobis: The Democrats fought to keep segregation legal in the 50’s, so therefore the Democrat party of today is racist.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

I stated that Cory Booker would not be ready in 4 years.

Perhaps you haven’t watched his story or heard him speak. A very impressive young fellow.

I understand you are upset with how the election turned out but no need for the sharpness of your posts, at least with me. Bombastic expressions are more Rush Limbaugh like and not worthy of CAF, I am thinking.

Plus, you don’t normally respond like that- at least to me anyway. I put forumites in certain categories based on the tone they take in posts and I have found you to be generally level-headed, despite our political differences.

Actually I was aiming more for Michael Savage than Rush Limbaugh in that post. Forgive me if I’m a bit cynical about rising stars in the Democrat party: A community organizer turned state senator who voted “present” more often than not, was groomed for the US senate, then the presidency - his main accomplishments being a polished speaker, as long as he had a teleprompter handy. But I will have to check out this Cory Booker as he has quite a reputation as a rising star and even a hero who rescued people out of a fire. I think a rising star for 2016 is Andrew Cuomo because he is governor of New York. You know, his father Mario Cuomo should have run in 1988 - he would likely have done better than Dukakis. Of course I wouldn’t count out Hillary either - she will only be 69 and Reagan won at that age, McCain and Dole ran at an older age even.

As for the GOP, I think Rubio certainly has to be a top tier candidate. Also Bobby Jindal - talk about impressive - he was president of Louisiana University at 28, elected to congress in 2004. And governor of Louisiana in 2008 at the age of 37. Quite a record, wouldn’t you agree? I think a Rubio/Jindal ticket would be impressive. Or a Jindal/Rubio ticket. There are a number of other bright stars - Kelly Ayotte, Susanna Martinez, e.g. but I’m note sure they’re ready for that level or have that kind of ambition.

Here’s hoping I remain in your, “level headed” category.

Ishii

 

[Elizabeth502]

No doubt there will be many baptized Catholics in hell,

Mystics who have had visions of Hell have conveyed so…Which is why I do not take my “indelible mark” as a pass for a private morality or a casual membership card, but, I aim to “work out my salvation in fear and trembling,” concerned that I am doing a bad job of it, and certain that, as we have been told by saints before us, and by Jesus Himself, To Whom Much is Given Much Will be Required.

Holy people before us have been clear about the higher expectations for those for whom friendship with God is more accessible (by virtue of parents who chose to baptize us, through an authentically sacramental life as adults, and via the multitude of Church resources to inform our consciences, learn the theology, and develop an identifiably Catholic spirituality).

 

[_Abyssinia]

Did you see the Wilberforce movie? He was years ‘changing hearts and minds’ and even after all of that the legislation he got went through because of some fortuitous events that all fell together at the right time.

Of course official/in-state rates will fall with local legislation…that does not necessarily mean that babies are not being aborted. The intention is not to manipulate numbers - it is to decrease actual deaths, no? Right here in Texas the official numbers must be down with the recent legislative changes…so women who want abortions are turning elsewhere - to the pharmacists of Mexico. I know many people who will dismiss that; my question is why: is a life lost in an abortion done in the shadows any less a life?

Tell me, just imagine for a moment that abortion is made 100% illegal in the entire US - no exceptions, do you think a doctor is going to write “abortion” in the diagnosis section of the chart? No, he’s going to use some fancy run-around term, like ‘heavy periods’. Do you think a pregnant woman is going to the ER to say she took meds to have an abortion or rather that she was lifting something heavy, and just started bleeding? Hearts and minds are what make the abortion decision and hearts and minds are what must reject it for any real headway.

Wilberforce sought to change the law and change peoples hearts same time which was pro lifes are doing. You can not do either on its own.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Did you see the Wilberforce movie? He was years ‘changing hearts and minds’ and even after all of that the legislation he got went through because of some fortuitous events that all fell together at the right time.

Of course official/in-state rates will fall with local legislation…that does not necessarily mean that babies are not being aborted. The intention is not to manipulate numbers - it is to decrease actual deaths, no? Right here in Texas the official numbers must be down with the recent legislative changes…so women who want abortions are turning elsewhere - to the pharmacists of Mexico. I know many people who will dismiss that; my question is why: is a life lost in an abortion done in the shadows any less a life?

Tell me, just imagine for a moment that abortion is made 100% illegal in the entire US - no exceptions, do you think a doctor is going to write “abortion” in the diagnosis section of the chart? No, he’s going to use some fancy run-around term, like ‘heavy periods’. Do you think a pregnant woman is going to the ER to say she took meds to have an abortion or rather that she was lifting something heavy, and just started bleeding? Hearts and minds are what make the abortion decision and hearts and minds are what must reject it for any real headway.

Study by National Bureau of Economic Research says state ban on abortion would reduce abortion and women wanting abortion are sensitive to the travel costs they would need to pay to travel out of state for abortion

If you wait for only hearts and minds to change the slaughter will continue in far bigger numbers than if you pursue change to law and changing minds. Neither has to be done in isolation, you can seek to change minds and change the law. Having limitations on abortion protects the majority of women

 

[_Abyssinia]

Not the image the media gives. Now there are 30 republican governors

GOP governors considerably more diverse than their Democratic counterparts

 

[Lapey]

I’m just going to assume then you and the new generation of clergy are teaching as well how the Catholic Church says one becomes a member and who is one. Based on their Baptisms not on whether they voted for Obama over the more conservative Romney. So there is no confusion among the laity about all teaching and what She believes. I think that’s great Deacon Lapey.

One can be Catholic and be on the outside looking in because he/she holds on to their own beliefs rather than learn and discern then conform to Church teaching. Remember, we are in His Church, not the other way around. Most importantly, when we leave His Church to find the one that allows us to believe and follow our own will we also leave Him who is the Head.

As you so eloquently stated earlier, “and at this teaching many of His followers left because of this hard teaching and went back to their former way of life.” He didn’t stop them, He taught them truth and He was rejected because it was too hard to conform. We all are called to conform and have free will to choose that or turn away, sadly more and more turn away everyday.

 

[Lapey]

Long post, but I hope you read what I’ve written.

“How exactly do they leave?” As always, I get the sense that there’s something hidden in your question. But that indelible mark will be there, CMatt, when you face your judge, and no, it cannot be erased from your soul, anymore than unrepentant sins can. Haven’t those who have physically left by their non-participation in weekly liturgy and abandonment of the sacraments also spiritually left as well? They have freely turned their backs to the Church, - their total being, body and soul. Is that not “leaving?” No doubt there will be many baptized Catholics in hell, and I’ve often wondered if that mark of Baptism could very well serve to not only save, but to condemn as well, because of the rejection of that which holds eternal life, but of course, that’s just me speculating on the realm that belongs to Christ alone. And for those unsure? Are you going to go through your entire life sitting on the fence when the answers (albeit not the ones you want to hear) have already been given? Perhaps it’s not answers you need or even want, but faith in the word of God and a submission of mind, heart and will to the One providing those answers. Sincere struggle is one thing and certainly grace will be given if asked for, but indifference to the gift which has been already been given, is as hostile to the message of Christ as is outright attack against His Church. “I will spew the lukewarm out of My mouth…”

Another point is that a gift has been supernaturally given to Catholics who have embraced truth. Sensus fidei (sense of the faithful) keeps us from erring – it is a discernment of truth which cannot separate itself from the teaching Magisterium of the Church (led by the Spirit.) Think of the early Christians….newly baptized in their faith and being told by dissident bishops that Christ was not divine. Oh, how they knew better (because of FAITH) and they could, at that point, not dissent even though they knew they might face certain death. Heresy and a split from authentic teaching is simply not an option. And please remember the words of AB Sheen, “Catholics need to be merciless to the error in the minds of heretics” because that is the highest form of charity.

Now a question for you. (Next post.)

Sweet music to my ears…great job Tigg!

 

[Lapey]

Hi Deacon, I concluded you did not want them to leave. The priest’s answer on the poor didn’t even occur this yr but wasn’t helpful to me along my faith journey. I know none of us on earth is perfect including the clergy. But then I have to ask myself what else could he be wrong on? It was just one thing though of my experiences that drive my faith on this lifelong journey I am on and where to worship Him. There are others. But most recently a reason I haven’t worshiped in a Catholic church in 7 mos was because of the political views expressed here and what posters kept informing the forum various clergy were saying about voting along with what I was hearing outside CAF in this regard. And I had to ask myself, do I want to attend worship there? I don’t believe God is a registered Republican or a Democrat. He knows neither party is perfect and I don’t believe He would suggest people must vote for one over the other. But that’s what I believe. I have let them know and that’s another reason. That has been detrimental to my faith journey as well. But I applaud you in your efforts here. ** It doesn’t matter to me anymore but if I were Catholic I’d be fine with being considered a not in good standing Catholic or non practicing or dissenting if that’s what I was.** But if that’s what they mean then why shouldn’t they that? I do agree I should not have implied all 50% have been confirmed. Thank you for clarifying that. May God bless you Deacon for your efforts here and peace be with you.

Wait, I thought you were arguing that OCAC? You are Catholic, aren’t you? That is your argument, isn’t it?

As far as God being rep or dem, that is just silly; you know that. But I ask you this; doesn’t He have an answer for all of the issues of today that you call merely political? Abortion is not politics, neither is marriage or helping the poor and homeless. War, death penalty, healthcare, immigration, energy, etc., all of these topics are of interest of Jesus, don’t you agree? Why would they not be talked about in His Church? Why would His ministers not teach the faithful about these issues?

We are not on individual journeys; we are in this body of Christ as brothers and sisters, not politically like minded partners or parallel journeyers (if that is even a word). You can withdraw and separate from the authority of the Latin Rite Church, but you cannot from God’s authority. He will hold us all accountable for our lives; did we provide and protect the most vulnerable among us? This election showed that at least half of us Catholics did not, many without knowing because they have been led astray by secular society and are less culpable; but in rejecting truth we reject Him, that will be held against us.

The leaders of the GOP do not have the courage to say what needs to be said and do what needs to be done. Neither party is ready to take the lead to end abortion; the rep party at least is not supporting it by their platform. Carl Rove and company must go. Our country needs a clear choice. This last race illustrated this most of all. The difference in the two parties is not much. Never thought I would say this, but I may go 3rd party myself next go round.