Considering Catholic Conversion

[AugustTherese]

There are quite a few sincerely held points of faith that differ between Catholics and Lutherans. The basic view of the Eucharist isn’t one of them

I agree with this statement inasmuch as your definition of the term ‘basic’ refers solely to the confession of the Real Presence. However, the most important liturgical aspect of the Eucharist is the sacrifice; and, once anyone or any community attempts to protest, demerit and/or redefine that truth in this Sacrament, you inherently lose the deepest and most intimate graces that are offered to those who unite their sacrifices with the once-for-all Sacrifice made present.

 

[ambrosegirl_84]

Thanks for the explanation! I have to say I have always been under the impression that we Lutherans believe in consubstantiation, as well!

 

[ambrosegirl_84]

This is my fear, steido01, that I haven’t offered my pastor enough grace to view him as a flawed human, as well. I started reading the Lutheran Confessions when my eldest was a toddler, with a group of fellow mothers, but they quit meeting. I started again when I was nursing my second baby, but haven’t picked it up since then. I got through the Large Catechism. Our church has a Lutheran Confessions reading group monthly, but it’s at bedtime for my kids and I believe is mostly or all men.

 

[ambrosegirl_84]

What were the factors that drove you to choose the LCMS?

When we were dating, I had recently left the ELCA. We began RCIA classes, but my husband didn’t want to spend eight months or however long it was taking classes. The priest also blew us off when we had questions. The pastor at the LCMS church reached out to us, was approachable, and we were members within 6 weeks. I remember poring over theology at the time, and finding that there weren’t terribly many differences between those two churches, and of the two, I found the LCMS church to be more traditional and conservative. At the Catholic church I felt like I was back in the ELCA.

I now see that my replies are all over the place; sorry! I have been reading everyone’s replies on my phone but it’s difficult to craft a worthwhile reply on my phone’s keyboard.

I think my next step is to read in depth the summaries of the beliefs of both churches. If I get brave enough, I may talk to my pastor. I’m afraid he’d eat me alive and possibly deny me communion, but it’s a risk I may have to take!

 

[steido01]

I started reading the Lutheran Confessions when my eldest was a toddler…

I know the feeling. I thought keeping spiritually fed was difficult with “two under two.” Then one turned three.

I think my next step is to read in depth the summaries of the beliefs of both churches. If I get brave enough, I may talk to my pastor.

This is wise. Please do not fear your pastor; they are trained precisely to meet Christians at their level of understanding. If you have questions about the Confessions, he will be more than happy to arrange a time to meet (in between hospital visits and sermon prep - just be patient. ). On the same note, do not fear your local RC priest. If you have questions about either’s respective catechisms, ask the appropriate source for clarification.

I’d also keep in mind that you and your husband are one flesh. Your hubby may need gentle reminding of that, too. If meeting with pastor seems too daunting, perhaps hubby can help lift some of the load for you by arranging a time on your behalf? Just a thought.

 

[AugustTherese]

If I get brave enough, I may talk to my pastor. I’m afraid he’d eat me alive and possibly deny me communion, but it’s a risk I may have to take!

That is a ‘risk’ I took and I strongly urge you to take that same risk.

Perhaps you should ask him how he can confess to believe in the ‘doctrine’ of ‘faith alone’ in light of James 2:24, and why he belongs to a denomination founded in the United states in 1847 that confesses to believe that the Catholic Church and its members are ‘apostate’, considering Christ founded the Catholic Church 1,900 years before the LCMS was founded by a group of men.

 

[steido01]

that confesses to believe that the Catholic Church and its members are ‘apostate’,

This poster has a personal vendetta against the LCMS, and misrepresents its views. The LCMS does not, and has never, considered the Roman Catholic Church to be “apostate.”

The LCMS does believe, according to its confessions, that the true church is found “wherever the Word is rightly preached and the Sacraments rightly administered.” This true church is, by even Martin Luther’s own admission, also found within the Roman Catholic Church (see his sermons on John, which were his last works before his death). Lutherans are unique in this regard; while denouncing the errors they perceive in other church bodies (often harshly), they do not pretend to know the mind of God by denying other baptized Christians their rightful place within Christ’s body.

 

[AugustTherese]

“We reject as apostasy from the Christian religion not only the doctrine of the Unitarians, who promise the grace of God to men on the basis of their moral efforts; not only the gross work-doctrine of the papists, who expressly teach that good works are necessary to obtain justification; but also the doctrine of the synergists, who indeed use the terminology of the Christian Church and say that man is justified “by faith,” “by faith alone,” but again mix human works into the article of justification by ascribing to man a co-operation with God in the kindling of faith and thus stray into papistic territory.” - ‘Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod’, p. 19

Can easily be found here: Brief Statement of LCMS Doctrinal Position - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

 

[ambrosegirl_84]

One of the things that has given me real pause regarding my church body is indeed the fact that the Pope is considered the Antichrist.

 

[AugustTherese]

“As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist “as God sitteth in the temple of God,” 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ’s sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation — these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is "the very Antichrist.” (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)" - ‘Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod’, p. 43

Of course, many LCMS Lutherans will redefine what is clearly written here and attempt to interpret this as referring merely to the Pontiff’s office, and not the Pope himself. But, I highlighted what you can see clearly in what they profess to believe.

 

[AugustTherese]

If I get brave enough, I may talk to my pastor

Please, talk to him. I strongly urge you to ‘talk’ to him about James 2:24, and to what his defense is regarding the ‘doctrine’ of ‘faith alone’.

“You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” - James 2:24 ESV

 

[steido01]

One of the things that has given me real pause regarding my church body is indeed the fact that the Pope is considered the Antichrist.

Keep in mind that when the LCMS uses that word, it does not mean what the nutty “Left Behind” crowd means. When Lutherans use it, it’s as a surgical, precise identifier. It’s applicable to any leader of the church (which we just explained includes the RCC, in the Lutheran view) who uses his office in a way that is contrary to Christ’s mission, or anti-to-Christ. That can apply just as equally to Joel Osteen or Creflo Dollar. To be sure, the charge of antichrist is still serious, but not some insane “Excorcist” movie-style stuff.

It’s also very important to note, as the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogues did back in the 1960s (see the link above), that the Lutheran accusation is entirely conditional. They are dependent on certain actions; it’s not a permanent label. The Lutheran Confessions list three reasons for making their charge, and if circumstances should change, they would no longer apply:

1. That the papacy is wrong to claim itself above all other pastors by divine right (they’d be fine if by human necessity).
2. That the papacy is wrong to claim itself ruler of both the religious and secular world, acting as kingmaker.
3. That the papacy is wrong to claim that fealty to him is required for salvation.

In modern times, the papacy hasn’t really acted on these claims much, which has caused some Lutherans to wonder if the conditions still apply. But the papacy still holds these teachings, officially, so the charge still stands (sadly, for Lutherans).

Also, the LCMS explicitly teaches that the office of the papacy is anti-to-Christ, not the Christian men who hold that office themselves. Pope Benedict was a dear friend to Lutherans, greeting the President of the LCMS specifically at a prayer service a few years ago, and Francis is much-loved too.

 

[steido01]

Again, you’d be better served talking with a Pastor (who knows and can rightly explain what Lutherans actually believe) and a priest (who is not a recent convert and can charitably explain what Roman Catholics believe), rather than folks on the Internet who may or may not have an ax to grind.

God bless you and your husband as you seek Truth.

 

[AugustTherese]

The ‘office’ of the papacy is futile without men who fill it. The ‘office’ is an extension of the person who fills it. To dichotomize the office from the person is a poor attempt to redefine what Luther and his original followers meant in regards to the Pope. Just one of many coarse examples:

“Heretics are not to be disputed with, but to be condemned unheard, and whilst they perish by fire, the faithful ought to pursue the evil to its source, and bathe their heads in the blood of the Catholic bishops, and of the Pope, who is the devil in disguise.” - Martin Luther

 

[AugustTherese]

One of the things that has given me real pause regarding my church body is indeed the fact that the Pope is considered the Antichrist.

Remember, most every Lutheran who confesses to believe such a thing will also attempt to defend it and redefine it under the guise of false ecumenicism. It does not hurt to talk to anyone, but remember, you have a conscience that must test the spirits. Read for yourself what’s posted from the LCMS website that I have provided; that should suffice. God love you and may the Holy Spirit guide you to the Church Christ founded!

 

[steido01]

Perhaps the LCMS should decide what it teaches, and not any individual — especially not one who is decidedly antagonistic toward it.

The LCMS does not teach, nor has it ever taught, that any individual Pope as a person, is to be identified with the Antichrist. The historic view of LCMS on the Antichrist is summarized as follows by the Synod’s Theological Commission:
The New Testament predicts that the church throughout its history will witness many antichrists (Matt. 24:5,23-24; Mark 13:6,21-22; Luke 21:8; 1 John 2:18,22; 4:3; 2 John 7). All false teachers who teach contrary to Christ’s Word are opponents of Christ and, insofar as they do so, are anti-Christ.
…
Concerning the historical identity of the Antichrist, we affirm the Lutheran Confessions’ identification of the Antichrist with the office of the papacy whose official claims continue to correspond to the Scriptural marks listed above. It is important, however, that we observe the distinction which the Lutheran Confessors made between the office of the pope (papacy) and the individual men who fill that office. The latter could be Christians themselves. We do not presume to judge any person’s heart. Also, we acknowledge the possibility that the historical form of the Antichrist could change. Of course, in that case another identified by these marks would rise.
In a footnote, the Commission adds:
To the extent that the papacy continues to claim as official dogma the canons and decrees of the Council of Trent which expressly anathematizes, for instance, the doctrine “that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified,” the judgment of the Lutheran confessional writings that the papacy is the Antichrist holds. At the same time, of course, we must recognize the possibility, under God’s guidance, that contemporary discussions and statements (e.g., 1983 U.S. Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogue statement on “Justification by Faith”) could lead to a revision of the Roman Catholic position regarding Tridentine dogma.

https://www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=552

 

[AugustTherese]

The LCMS does not teach, nor has it ever taught, that any individual Pope as a person, is to be identified with the Antichrist

All false teachers who teach contrary to Christ’s Word are opponents of Christ and, insofar as they do so, are anti-Christ.

The duplicity is almost laughable.

 

[steido01]

Incredible. I’m trying to provide counsel for a conflicted person to help her look at a situation objectively, and you still can’t help but attack the LCMS. Lord, have mercy.

Duplicity? Because the words don’t mean what you want them to mean? Shall we discuss your communion’s historic opinion on the burning of heretics compared to today’s “separated brethren” speak? Or the 150+ anathemas laid upon non-Catholics at Trent compared to the “ray of Truth” found within all religions since Vatican II? This terrible game could be played all day, and Christian unity would be no closer.

May you find security enough in your conversion that you need not denigrate others to prove its value. Let Christ be your peace. Amen.
————

@ambrosegirl_84, my wife is/was Roman Catholic. I attended RCIA before settling into my home in the LCMS. I feel the difficulty in your decision. If you ever wish for a Lutheran view, I am happy to oblige in PM, though a pastor who can meet in person would be better. I’d also encourage you to meet one on one with a RCC priest about your questions on Roman Catholicism rather than the Internet. Whatever way you should decide, know that you are Christ’s by baptism.

God’s Peace.

 

[AugustTherese]

(Matt. 24:5,23-24; Mark 13:6,21-22; Luke 21:8; 1 John 2:18,22; 4:3; 2 John 7)

we affirm the Lutheran Confessions’ identification of the Antichrist with the office of the papacy whose official claims continue to correspond to the Scriptural marks listed above

Let us look at one of these ‘Scriptural marks’ that ‘correspond’ to ‘the office of the papacy’:

“For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray…Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.” - Matthew 24:5,23-24 ESV

So, are you saying that the mere office of the papacy is proclaiming, ‘I am the Christ’ and that it is the office that ‘lead many astray’? Is it simply the office of the papacy that is a ‘false christ’ and ‘false prophet’? How can a mere ‘office’ proclaim to be Christ and lead many astray? Please, enlighten me.

 

[steido01]

I am saddened that you continue to hijack threads just to bash the LCMS. I am responding to your false characterizations of Lutheran belief only for the sake of those who would unknowingly repeat your untruths. I have no desire to converse with you, as you have shown no interest in accurately representing Lutheranism, but consistently misrepresent it even when faced with the actual teachings of actual Lutheran bodies by actual Lutherans. If I were to mischaracterize Roman Catholicism on these boards, I would be summarily removed for a lack of charity. I pray that you may someday be able to acknowledge real differences and advocate for your beliefs without bearing false witness against your neighbor.

How can a mere ‘office’ proclaim to be Christ and lead many astray? Please, enlighten me.

Separating an office from an individual is a common enough concept. Attorneys General faithfully execute laws with which they disagree every day. So do many the bureaucrats who make up the countless components of the United States’ Executive Branch.

Frankly, the shepherds who serve both your congregation and mine make the separation between office and self, too. When you are forgiven your sins, it is not because the priest is literally Christ and without sin (neither of our churches are Donatists), but because he inhabits the Office Christ established.

You would be well-served to read what the Lutheran-Catholic dialogues discussed regarding the Office of the Papacy, including the Lutheran understanding of “antichrist,” back in the 1970s. The total proceedings from “Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue, Round V: Papal Primacy and the Universal Church” can be found in this book. Yes, the LCMS was a full participant in that round of discussions.