L
LivingWaters7
Guest
looks like there’s a new Pope!!
Considering Leaving Mormonism For Traditional Christianity...
- Status
M
maltmom
Guest
I’m still praying for you. It’s so exciting to see the Holy Spirit working in your life.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
–Matthew 16:13-19
Habemus Papam!
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Yes, his name is extraordinary.
The rebuilding of the Church was first commissioned by Christ to St. Francis…and it was opposite of the prosperity gospel or seeking riches and power. Francis was to not build church buildings, but to build souls back to Christ, not by preaching but by embracing Christ and His joy in all things, and seeing everything that comes to us comes from the hand of God Himself.
South American Catholics’ faith has been materialized by the false interpretations of Liberation Theology, man working himself for things, class struggle, envy of the rich. Then there are the non denominationals attempting to bring them back to Christ by use of the prosperity gospel.
Pope Francis…I call him Francesco…will be a great blessing and is very pastoral.
Habemus Papa!!
The rebuilding of the Church was first commissioned by Christ to St. Francis…and it was opposite of the prosperity gospel or seeking riches and power. Francis was to not build church buildings, but to build souls back to Christ, not by preaching but by embracing Christ and His joy in all things, and seeing everything that comes to us comes from the hand of God Himself.
South American Catholics’ faith has been materialized by the false interpretations of Liberation Theology, man working himself for things, class struggle, envy of the rich. Then there are the non denominationals attempting to bring them back to Christ by use of the prosperity gospel.
Pope Francis…I call him Francesco…will be a great blessing and is very pastoral.
Habemus Papa!!
L
lynnettejane
Guest
God love you LW7, may he remain with you in your journey, I feel for you and so does our sweet LordSo I recently went to the temple for a friend’s endowment (he asked me to come). I was late arriving, so wasn’t able to be there for the endowment ordinance (it isn’t like church where you can just show up. They close the doors to the initial endowment room at the beginning, and you’d have to wait for the next session). Instead, I ended up doing proxy sealings, because after you do sealings, you can go to the Celestial Room, and the endowment ordinance ends in the Celestial Room, so I could meet him and everyone else there.
On the one hand, it definitely was cool to be with so many young people on a weekend doing religious things (there was also a large group of youth at the temple for proxy baptisms). On the other hand, the whole time I was thinking/praying to God to help me know whether this House really has His “signature” on it.
When we met in the Celestial Room, we chatted for a bit, and he asked me about the purpose of a specific aspect of the endowment that is always discussed as to whether it is symbolic or something we would really do. I won’t get into specifics, but I’m sure we all know what I’m talking about. Brigham Young has this “famous” quote that is relevant (it is quoted in various other places so I feel okay giving it here):
**
Your endowment is to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the keywords, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the holy priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation**
He also asked me if I felt “confused” after my endowment. I said that we’d talk later on about everything, since he seemed like he didn’t know how to interpret what just happened (he may have just been overwhelmed since it’s a lot to take in the first time, and that’s why everyone always says “you have to keep going”), and I didn’t have much time to hang around.
Also, after going to Mass recently then going into the temple, I definitely noticed the difference, and perhaps more significantly, I felt the difference. It really has been something I’ve thought about ever since I’ve been LDS, but put it up on the shelf. And of course adding the “reason” side of the equation, I have often wondered about the continuity of the LDS temple rites with those of the Biblical tabernacle and temple(s). I’m aware of various LDS apologetics that attempt to make the connection, but to me, it always seems to fall into the same problem that has been my issue with LDS apologetics on ancient Judaism and Christianity: the apologists, in Nibley style, grasp at anything and everything, finding parallels everywhere, saying “look! it’s there in the Gnostic texts, Joseph Smith couldn’t have just made it up!” (something I’ve said frequently). Essentially, I see no Church of Jesus Christ of Former-day Saints, a cohesive unified group with these practices in one place, instead of all over the place. Even in the writings of the very earliest Christians we have, LDS apologists will quote things to prove beliefs like exaltation, yet those ECFs believed in traditional doctrines, and deification/theosis was never lost. Hmmmm…
Oh and I’m almost finished reading “Becoming Gods-A Closer Look at 21st Century Mormonism” by Richard Abanes (author of “One Nation Under Gods”). I highly recommend it! Although he’s Evangelical, I appreciate his respectful approach, as well as the fact that his book engages much of the recent LDS apologetic efforts by FARMS/MI/FAIR, including those on the issue I just mentioned (attempting to find certain unique Mormon beliefs and practices anciently), as this is what many find comforting in believing that JS didn’t make it all up (I know I ate all of that stuff up).
SO, just wanted to share that. I’m sure many of you would like me to post “YES, I resigned my callings, left the LDS Church, attended Confession, and am a believing and practicing Catholic again!”
, but I’m not there yet. I’m leaning there, but I’m not there yet. Very difficult indeed…
P
Pepband_Mom
Guest
watch 'The Journey Home" every monday night on EWTN TV like I have for the past 8 - 10 years & keep a tally of all the Prot’s, Atheists, etc. that when they dig into the ECF’s many tend to say how that sealed the deal & converted. In other words, they are already interested & probably responding to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. However, I would like to ask Marcus Grodi the host of the show for a guess as to how many have read the early ch fathers & converted. I never said that was the ONLY proof but the fathers sure seem to convince many former ministers, teachers, theologians to come on board as quite a few have converted due to what you term “blind dogma”
I have not found the ECF "so varied" especially for being in different parts of the world in different centuries with different customs & languages. I own Wm Jurgens’ 3 volume set “The Faith of the Early Fathers” & see more consistency than not.
L
LivingWaters7
Guest
Thanks, yeah I think i’m at this stage at the moment. Looking at every possible means of leaving and staying. Very hard.
Thanks.
And looking at my schedule, it looks like I won’t be able to attend the Chrism Mass, but will attend the Mass of the Lord’s Supper, Meditations on the Seven Last Words (but can’t stay for the Solemn Liturgy of the Lord’s Passion and Death), and of course Easter Sunday Mass with the family.
And out of all the things I’ve thought about and read, really it boils down to something RebeccaJ always says: was the Holy Ghost (i.e. God) faithful? I think that in the Catholic/Orthodox view, there is a focus on God, the Church being His, and that the Church is Christ’s Body. In contrast, a total apostasy of the Church (twice, in the Old World and the New) focuses on man and his failures. With the traditional view, God guides His Church despite the failures and sins of man. With the restorationist view, the failures of man can destroy God’s Church (twice). Hmmm.
M
Marie5890
Guest
Important insight to meditate on.
T
twopekinguys
Guest
L
LivingWaters7
Guest
Off to the Solemn Liturgy of the Lord’s Passion and Death at St. Patrick’s! Glad that I’m able to participate in a liturgical service on this important day!
P
pablope
Guest
The Via Dolorosa…I think this is sung during the veneration of the Cross:
youtube.com/watch?v=pjKIhSNfUcE
Down the Via Dolorosa in Jerusalem that day
The soldiers tried to clear the narrow street
But the crowd pressed in to see
The Man condemned to die on Calvary
He was bleeding
from a beating, there were stripes upon His back
And He wore a crown of thorns upon His head
And He bore with every step
The scorn of those who cried out for His death
Down the Via Dolorosa called the way of suffering
Like a lamb came the Messiah, Christ the King,
But He chose to walk that road out of
His love for you and me.
Down the Via Dolorosa, all the way to Calvary.
T
twopekinguys
Guest
L
LivingWaters7
Guest
Well, Good Friday Mass was definitely a great experience.
So I attended at St. Patrick’s Cathedral in NYC. It was PACKED. Filled to the brim. The liturgy started at 3:30pm, and I got there around 3:15. Mistake. There was no where to sit, which was compounded by the construction they’re doing, so that makes navigating the inside a little…stressful with so many people. Oh well, not important. I found a wall to lean against.
The liturgy itself was very interesting and moving. The entire Passion narrative was read. By “read” I kind of mean “performed”, since it was done by 3 priests and the congregation, with each having a different part (the congregation was the Jews, if I remember correctly). When we got to the part of Christ being crucified, everyone knelt. Amusingly, I was following along with my KJV LDS Gospel Library app on my phone.
The homily by Cardinal Dolan was great. He talked about how Jesus experienced and suffered for all of our afflictions, infirmities, sins, etc. So, we can never say “God doesn’t know what I’m going through”. As he was talking about that, I also thought about LDS arguments in favor for belief that the Father was once a man that progressed to God, and how it is comforting to know that God went through everything we are going through. Yet, such a belief isn’t even necessary when we see that Christ, who always has been God, took on everything.
He also brought up an African American hymn, something like Were You There When They Crucified Our Lord. Cardinal Dolan said that as Catholics, you can answer Yes, because at the Mass, His sacrifice is re-presented, and you are taken to the foot of the cross at Calvary. I wrote that one down.
Then the Cross was brought out. Oh and I enjoyed the hymn O Sacred Head Surrounded.
After Communion and a couple Anthems and prayers, there was Adoration of the Holy Cross, where the people could go up to venerate the cross. I didn’t stick around for that, it was way too packed anyway.
All in all, I really appreciated going. LDS don’t really focus on the Cross. We say many times that we focus on the Resurrection, that’s what’s important. I also think that it helped me really internalize that the atoning sacrifice of Christ really happened, that it was painful, and that it wasn’t this flowery event that I just say I know is true without really pondering it (that’s just me personally). I enjoy the Holy Week liturgies as a walk with Christ through these important historical events in His life and ministry (I almost bought Pope Benedict’s Jesus of Nazareth: Holy Week: From the Entrance Into Jerusalem To The Resurrection). While as LDS we do believe in Christ’s atonement and Resurrection, and ponder His atonement and Resurrection every Sunday during Sacrament Meeting (we are to remember and ponder His atonement during the Sacrament), it isn’t the same.
So I attended at St. Patrick’s Cathedral in NYC. It was PACKED. Filled to the brim. The liturgy started at 3:30pm, and I got there around 3:15. Mistake. There was no where to sit, which was compounded by the construction they’re doing, so that makes navigating the inside a little…stressful with so many people. Oh well, not important. I found a wall to lean against.
The liturgy itself was very interesting and moving. The entire Passion narrative was read. By “read” I kind of mean “performed”, since it was done by 3 priests and the congregation, with each having a different part (the congregation was the Jews, if I remember correctly). When we got to the part of Christ being crucified, everyone knelt. Amusingly, I was following along with my KJV LDS Gospel Library app on my phone
.The homily by Cardinal Dolan was great. He talked about how Jesus experienced and suffered for all of our afflictions, infirmities, sins, etc. So, we can never say “God doesn’t know what I’m going through”. As he was talking about that, I also thought about LDS arguments in favor for belief that the Father was once a man that progressed to God, and how it is comforting to know that God went through everything we are going through. Yet, such a belief isn’t even necessary when we see that Christ, who always has been God, took on everything.
He also brought up an African American hymn, something like Were You There When They Crucified Our Lord. Cardinal Dolan said that as Catholics, you can answer Yes, because at the Mass, His sacrifice is re-presented, and you are taken to the foot of the cross at Calvary. I wrote that one down.
Then the Cross was brought out. Oh and I enjoyed the hymn O Sacred Head Surrounded.
After Communion and a couple Anthems and prayers, there was Adoration of the Holy Cross, where the people could go up to venerate the cross. I didn’t stick around for that, it was way too packed anyway.
All in all, I really appreciated going. LDS don’t really focus on the Cross. We say many times that we focus on the Resurrection, that’s what’s important. I also think that it helped me really internalize that the atoning sacrifice of Christ really happened, that it was painful, and that it wasn’t this flowery event that I just say I know is true without really pondering it (that’s just me personally). I enjoy the Holy Week liturgies as a walk with Christ through these important historical events in His life and ministry (I almost bought Pope Benedict’s Jesus of Nazareth: Holy Week: From the Entrance Into Jerusalem To The Resurrection). While as LDS we do believe in Christ’s atonement and Resurrection, and ponder His atonement and Resurrection every Sunday during Sacrament Meeting (we are to remember and ponder His atonement during the Sacrament), it isn’t the same.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Very nice sharing, LW7. I watched the last part on EWTN earlier today, Pacific time.
P
pablope
Guest
T
truthseeker32
Guest
Just an interesting little anecdote: Until around the 1930’s you could actually still find Mormons using the cross, although it has never been widespread. It would have not been unheard of to hear of a person wearing a cross, and there were a few Mormon churches with crosses in the chapel or on the steeple. The LDS church has gone back and forth between periods of wanting to make themselves similar to mainstream Christianity and wanting to distance themselves.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
When people say we do not focus on the Resurrection, that is another sign of living in the Spin Zone.
The greatest feast day in the Church is not Christmas or Easter, but Resurrection Sunday.
Ordinary Sunday. Every Sunday. We must work out our salvation. That means, we need to make time to understand what the Mass is and what happens at Mass, and unfortunately, most Catholics don’t. Alot of times classes are not available on the liturgy or if they are, people cannot come because they are too busy.
All the more important Catholics share our faith with them.
The greatest feast day in the Church is not Christmas or Easter, but Resurrection Sunday.
Ordinary Sunday. Every Sunday. We must work out our salvation. That means, we need to make time to understand what the Mass is and what happens at Mass, and unfortunately, most Catholics don’t. Alot of times classes are not available on the liturgy or if they are, people cannot come because they are too busy.
All the more important Catholics share our faith with them.
M
Marie5890
Guest
Thanks for sharing your experiences, LW.Well, Good Friday Mass was definitely a great experience.
So I attended at St. Patrick’s Cathedral in NYC. It was PACKED. Filled to the brim. The liturgy started at 3:30pm, and I got there around 3:15. Mistake. There was no where to sit, which was compounded by the construction they’re doing, so that makes navigating the inside a little…stressful with so many people. Oh well, not important. I found a wall to lean against.
The liturgy itself was very interesting and moving. The entire Passion narrative was read. By “read” I kind of mean “performed”, since it was done by 3 priests and the congregation, with each having a different part (the congregation was the Jews, if I remember correctly). When we got to the part of Christ being crucified, everyone knelt. Amusingly, I was following along with my KJV LDS Gospel Library app on my phone
The homily by Cardinal Dolan was great. He talked about how Jesus experienced and suffered for all of our afflictions, infirmities, sins, etc. So, we can never say “God doesn’t know what I’m going through”. As he was talking about that, I also thought about LDS arguments in favor for belief that the Father was once a man that progressed to God, and how it is comforting to know that God went through everything we are going through. Yet, such a belief isn’t even necessary when we see that Christ, who always has been God, took on everything.
He also brought up an African American hymn, something like Were You There When They Crucified Our Lord. Cardinal Dolan said that as Catholics, you can answer Yes, because at the Mass, His sacrifice is re-presented, and you are taken to the foot of the cross at Calvary. I wrote that one down.
Then the Cross was brought out. Oh and I enjoyed the hymn O Sacred Head Surrounded.
After Communion and a couple Anthems and prayers, there was Adoration of the Holy Cross, where the people could go up to venerate the cross. I didn’t stick around for that, it was way too packed anyway.
All in all, I really appreciated going. LDS don’t really focus on the Cross. We say many times that we focus on the Resurrection, that’s what’s important. I also think that it helped me really internalize that the atoning sacrifice of Christ really happened, that it was painful, and that it wasn’t this flowery event that I just say I know is true without really pondering it (that’s just me personally). I enjoy the Holy Week liturgies as a walk with Christ through these important historical events in His life and ministry (I almost bought Pope Benedict’s Jesus of Nazareth: Holy Week: From the Entrance Into Jerusalem To The Resurrection). While as LDS we do believe in Christ’s atonement and Resurrection, and ponder His atonement and Resurrection every Sunday during Sacrament Meeting (we are to remember and ponder His atonement during the Sacrament), it isn’t the same.
When I experience the liturgies of the Triduum for the first time (a year prior to my coming into full communion) I was overwhelmed at the sense of how I “worshipped” and was part of that part of Christ’s life.
I was able to make the Good Friday service (remember, LW, that was not a Mass you went to yesterday. No Mass is held on Good Friday), I had the same experience of overwhelming, “Im there with Him”
God Bless the rest of your weekend.
Do you think you will be taking in GC next weekend?
L
LivingWaters7
Guest
Yes, as I think we talked about before, “worship” is one of the key things that you experience with the liturgies. Not just praying to the Father, but praying to the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and just worship, as I imagine occurred in the ancient temple. There was a lot of kneeling too, which I had to do on the hard floor since there were no seats.
Yes, I’ll be watching GC next weekend. If anything, I’m curious to hear what they say in this one. Sadly, I think the days of big revelations from God on theological issues are over. Instead, we have smaller temples and the missionary age changing…
M
Marie5890
Guest
As the years went by while watching GC, it was harder and harder for me not to get bored with what seemed to be rehashed talks and topics. I remember thinking once, on one of the last GC’s I watched, the whole idea of “milk before meat” line.Yes, as I think we talked about before, “worship” is one of the key things that you experience with the liturgies. Not just praying to the Father, but praying to the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and just worship, as I imagine occurred in the ancient temple. There was a lot of kneeling too, which I had to do on the hard floor since there were no seats.
Yes, I’ll be watching GC next weekend. If anything, I’m curious to hear what they say in this one. Sadly, I think the days of big revelations from God on theological issues are over. Instead, we have smaller temples and the missionary age changing…
I was getting tired of “milk” alllllll the time…and I felt starved and undernourished…
I definitely was hungering and thirsting for a more substansive meal…
- Status