Considering Leaving Mormonism For Traditional Christianity...

[RebeccaJ]

For Latter-day Saints, we don’t think about offering sacrifice and priesthood at all. In general, the only sacrifice LDS offer is a broken heart and contrite spirit, though that isn’t a sacrifice only for priesthood holders, but for all members…for LDS, priesthood holders are seen as holding the power and authority of God, calling people to repentance, preaching the Gospel, performing service, and performing the various ordinances for others. I’m sure Catholics view the priesthood as encompassing those things as well, but with the additional component of offering sacrifice. Would that be a fair assessment.

Subtle, but important difference re: the power of God. LDS always gives me the impression they believe they are wielding a power. Catholic view is more along the lines of grace. The priest in and of himself has no extraordinary powers.

I think your last sentence above is also important. What has been the purpose of the priesthood in Judaism and then Christianity, especially as we read in the Bible (since we hold that in common)? I haven’t really looked into that, but it interesting for me to think about the function of a priest including offering sacrifice.

OK.

That sounds nice. So women can do this as well in Catholicism? And of course you could still ask the priest to perform a blessing too, right? When I was Catholic, I didn’t really have much experience with blessings, whether from a lay person or a priest (I guess I’ve always been the type to “figure it out on my own” and not ask for blessings, except of course in private prayer for guidance). The only time was when I had a medal (forgot what kind) that I took to a priest to have blessed. Thought that was cool to have a blessed object I could wear all the time.

When you bless yourself with holy water, you are giving yourself a priesthood blessing. Yes, women do give this type of blessing. Sacramental blessings are given by priests. To add to your list of things going on in Lent and Holy Week, this is also the time of year when the chrism oils are blessed by the Bishops of each diocese. It is a liturgical rite called the Chrism Mass. All the clergy in a diocese are invited to the Cathedral, where the Bishop blesses the chrism oils that each priest will take back to their own parish, for Sacramental use through the year. It is a beautiful Mass, another one that I recommend going to.

I agree that God is present in all creation, and that it all points back to Him. What I mean by my interest in “sacred space” is that I love that there are sacred, dedicated/set apart places where we can go to be in the presence of God in a special way. It doesn’t discount God’s presence to us outside of that place, or that God can’t speak to us outside of that place, but that these places are, in a sense, places of heightened spiritual experience and the presence of God. For Catholics, churches seem to fit that description in my view, because of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist that is always there, and is therefore a place where God’s presence is found in a special way. I hope that made sense.

Yes.

Indeed. I’m definitely not enamored by the Mass, so much as I do miss it. I’ve always said from time to time to my friends that ask that I do miss certain things about Catholicism all the time, and I guess it’s been hitting me harder lately.

Follow where God leads you. He will smooth the way.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think so many Catholics leave the Church, because they do not understand the Mass, what it does, and its effect.

LW7, if I am not on your ignore list, you have had so much so much LDS (name removed by moderator)ut, that what you are doing right now, by returning and reflecting and pondering is really the right way. I think you are following the Holy Spirit.

I am going to Mass now, First Saturday, and will continue to keep you in prayer.

 

[ephesians4]

That is the foundation of Mormonism. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young thought things were unknowable, so they could just make up stuff. They never thought science could expose their stories.

“All the original inhabitants of this continent are Jews”
“There are Quakers on the moon.”
“Some of the original inhabitants of this continent are Jews”
“I was visited by beings who varied in number and kind depending on the audience.”
“A handful of the original inhabitants of this continent are Jews; we just can’t prove it because zzzzzzzzzzzzz”

see this is what I would expect from a religion somebody just made up off the top of their head, heck if you or I just made up a bunch of nonsense and put it forward as the inspired word of God we could probably bet that in 100 years the holes would have opened up wide and people would be able to prove we were talking nonsense one way or another…

…and yet here Christianity still is, like a rock, and nobody is able to do the same after thousands of years.

 

[batman1973]

As far as Nibley goes, I’ve learned by experience not to trust LDS apologetics on early Christianity. They almost always distort the history, take quotes from the Church Fathers out of context, and ignore 99% of what those Fathers actually said about the Church and the Catholic Faith.

Hey Now! One of my most prized possesions is a perfect authentic replica of Hugh Nibley’s decoder ring!

 

[twopekinguys]

Hey Now! One of my most prized possesions is a perfect authentic replica of Hugh Nibley’s decoder ring!

Drink your Ovaltine!!

 

[havasupai]

So I’m reading Nibley’s “Apostles and Bishops in Early Christianity”. I’m debating whether I should start a separate thread on that (the differences b/w LDS and Catholic/Orthodox understandings of bishops and their relationship with apostles). Anyway, he says something interesting that I’m assuming Catholics would disagree with, so I’m interested in thoughts about it. This is also a common LDS understanding of how the Church of Jesus Christ should be led, so I’m sure the ex-LDS and others are familiar with it:

unique apostolic gift. Though all officers of the church should be inspired, the great endowment of leadership is the prophetic gift. That was the great principle that set the Christians off from other religions. Justin Martyr, in defiance of modern Catholic teaching, says,

Neither by nature nor by human intelligence is it possible for men to know great and divine matters, but by the gift that descends from above upon holy men, who do not need the learned arts, neither skills in controversy and debate, but rather to resign themselves to the power of the Holy Spirit, which if they are in tune will come down like a divine plectrum from heaven and play upon them as upon instruments, making use of righteous men and revealing to them the divine and heavenly gnosis. (Address to the Greeks 8)

These men, unlike the philosophers, all tell the same story and all agree among themselves. Herein Christian leadership differed from that of other churches-it was led by prophets under direct, divine inspiration, whose wisdom was not the fruits of philosophy or training. In accusing the church of having lost the power while retaining the forms of godliness, Tertullian makes a sharp distinction between two clearly marked levels of religious operation: both are good and necessary, but the higher one has departed from the church. The higher type is apostolic and prophetic and its genius is power-potestas. Against this the present church, according to Tertullian, can only set up a succession of bishops with discipline, officium, in the place of potestas. The old church had imperium-the authority to initiate organization, doctrine, etc.-while the new one had instead ministerium-a prescribed routine. The temple was the center of the old church, the synagogue the model of the new; the Spirit was the highest guide in the former, the scripture in the latter. enthusiasmus was the guiding principle of interpretation then, allegory now. revelation was the source of doctrine then, reason now; the gnosis, tongues, and prophecy have ceased as predicted, and in their place are left only faith, love, and hope; the high priest has departed, the bishop is in his place; the Holy Ghost has become an intellectual exercise; inspiration has yielded to tradition, oracles to councils. “To James the Just and to John and Peter, the Lord gave the gnosis after his resurrection,” says Clement. “They gave it further to the other apostles, and the rest of the apostles in turn gave it to the seventy,” but there is no account of its ever being passed on any further. (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4.33.7)

Catholics have always believed that the Holy Spirit abides in and guides the Church in matters of faith and doctrine. Christ promised to send it and as far as I’m aware there was no expiration date on that promise. And there are plenty of accounts of visions, prophecies, and miracles in Catholic history. Every Mass is a miracle. But Catholics are not looking for a new Gospel 2.0 that would replace the Gospel that Christ and his original apostles gave us. Jesus was not a forerunner to any later prophet. He is the fullness of God’s self-revelation.

 

[havasupai]

Since the quote mentions Tertullian, you should read his AgaInst Heretics

earlychristianwritings.com/text/tertullian11.html

 

[havasupai]

“the gnosis, tongues, and prophecy have ceased as predicted, and in their place are left only faith, love, and hope”

1st Corinthians chapter 13? I thought love ranked first

 

[pablope]

Hey Now! One of my most prized possesions is a perfect authentic replica of Hugh Nibley’s decoder ring!

hmmm…what is that decoder ring?

 

[AshJade]

I left the Mormon church 15 years ago, and it was one of the best decisions I have ever made. It was very hard, but worth it.

 

[batman1973]

hmmm…what is that decoder ring?

Why, the one that let’s him decode foreign languages, of course. All good Mormon “archaeologists” have em. See, only the Mormon “prophet” can rock a seer stone and a hat.

 

[LivingWaters7]

When you bless yourself with holy water, you are giving yourself a priesthood blessing. Yes, women do give this type of blessing. Sacramental blessings are given by priests. To add to your list of things going on in Lent and Holy Week, this is also the time of year when the chrism oils are blessed by the Bishops of each diocese. It is a liturgical rite called the Chrism Mass. All the clergy in a diocese are invited to the Cathedral, where the Bishop blesses the chrism oils that each priest will take back to their own parish, for Sacramental use through the year. It is a beautiful Mass, another one that I recommend going to.

Thanks! I looked it up and I do see a chrism Mass offered at the local Cathedral. I’m hoping I’m off, as I’ll definitely go (looks like I’ll be going to a lot of Masses that week)!

Catholics have always believed that the Holy Spirit abides in and guides the Church in matters of faith and doctrine. Christ promised to send it and as far as I’m aware there was no expiration date on that promise. And there are plenty of accounts of visions, prophecies, and miracles in Catholic history. Every Mass is a miracle. But Catholics are not looking for a new Gospel 2.0 that would replace the Gospel that Christ and his original apostles gave us. Jesus was not a forerunner to any later prophet. He is the fullness of God’s self-revelation.

Thanks. I think what happens sometimes is that I get caught by certain specific phrasings of LDS teachings, such as “living apostles and prophets”, “continuing revelation”, “the Heavens are open”, “living oracles”, “the temple is the literal house of God where He dwells through the Spirit, and that Jesus Christ can and does visit the temple”, etc. I guess another way to say this is that what attracts me to the LDS faith is the constant talk about an “alive” faith, where God interacts with people in various ways, that our leaders are guided by the Holy Ghost, the constant talk about revelation, including personal revelation, etc. Now, the Catholic Church believes similarly, but I guess it’s just talked about differently. And on the other hand, while we do talk about “living apostles and prophets” and the Prophet being an “oracle”, I still find troubling, as many do, the actual role of a “prophet”, and whether the 15 LDS prophets, seers, and revelators fit whatever the actual Biblical/Judeo-Christian definition of a prophet is (guess I need to look into such a definition).

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thanks! I looked it up and I do see a chrism Mass offered at the local Cathedral. I’m hoping I’m off, as I’ll definitely go (looks like I’ll be going to a lot of Masses that week)!

Thanks. I think what happens sometimes is that I get caught by certain specific phrasings of LDS teachings, such as “living apostles and prophets”, “continuing revelation”, “the Heavens are open”, “living oracles”, “the temple is the literal house of God where He dwells through the Spirit, and that Jesus Christ can and does visit the temple”, etc. I guess another way to say this is that what attracts me to the LDS faith is the constant talk about an “alive” faith, where God interacts with people in various ways, that our leaders are guided by the Holy Ghost, the constant talk about revelation, including personal revelation, etc. Now, the Catholic Church believes similarly, but I guess it’s just talked about differently. And on the other hand, while we do talk about “living apostles and prophets” and the Prophet being an “oracle”, I still find troubling, as many do, the actual role of a “prophet”, and whether the 15 LDS prophets, seers, and revelators fit whatever the actual Biblical/Judeo-Christian definition of a prophet is (guess I need to look into such a definition).

Yeah, Holy Week is when I tell my husband (non-Catholic) that I will be living at the church. I wouldn’t miss it, but definitely by Easter Sunday I am tired out! I go to the Easter Vigil, and don’t go a second time to Mass on Easter Sunday. I did that one year and the homily that was given was exactly the same. That’s when I figured out I didn’t have to go to both, though, most certainly you can.I’m going to go to vespers on Easter Sunday. It will be a nice way to end out my Holy Week/Easter Sunday.

To comment on what you said about terminology, yes, that is something I discovered when reading about Catholicism. LDS use the same terms but in every case, have given them different meanings. I started with “God”, what does that mean, exactly? I didn’t assume I knew what anything meant, at all. I spent a lot of time (months) reading the old Catholic encyclopedia at newadvent.org. I’d look up “God”, and follow all the hyperlinks to the other subjects. I wanted a picture of the whole, but needed to understand the details to get that picture. As it started coming together, making sense, I was astounded at so much. What I didn’t know, and what I didn’t know I didn’t know! For myself, I spent a lot of time trying to understand faith, because it isn’t something I had. Even “faith”, LDS define differently.

So! You have your work cut out for you. I hope you find it as enjoyable and fruitful as I did.

edit to add: Eventually, I needed a real, live, person to help me understand the parts I wasn’t getting. Particularly, the doctrine of the Trinity. For someone raised LDS, with no exposure to Christian teachings, the Trinity is a huge, major, major, difference. That’s when I went looking for someone who I could ask questions, and that’s how I ended up in an RCIA class. Again, with no intention of converting!!

 

[LivingWaters7]

Yeah, Holy Week is when I tell my husband (non-Catholic) that I will be living at the church. I wouldn’t miss it, but definitely by Easter Sunday I am tired out! I go to the Easter Vigil, and don’t go a second time to Mass on Easter Sunday. I did that one year and the homily that was given was exactly the same. That’s when I figured out I didn’t have to go to both, though, most certainly you can.I’m going to go to vespers on Easter Sunday. It will be a nice way to end out my Holy Week/Easter Sunday.

To comment on what you said about terminology, yes, that is something I discovered when reading about Catholicism. LDS use the same terms but in every case, have given them different meanings. I started with “God”, what does that mean, exactly? I didn’t assume I knew what anything meant, at all. I spent a lot of time (months) reading the old Catholic encyclopedia at newadvent.org. I’d look up “God”, and follow all the hyperlinks to the other subjects. I wanted a picture of the whole, but needed to understand the details to get that picture. As it started coming together, making sense, I was astounded at so much. What I didn’t know, and what I didn’t know I didn’t know! For myself, I spent a lot of time trying to understand faith, because it isn’t something I had. Even “faith”, LDS define differently.

So! You have your work cut out for you. I hope you find it as enjoyable and fruitful as I did.

edit to add: Eventually, I needed a real, live, person to help me understand the parts I wasn’t getting. Particularly, the doctrine of the Trinity. For someone raised LDS, with no exposure to Christian teachings, the Trinity is a huge, major, major, difference. That’s when I went looking for someone who I could ask questions, and that’s how I ended up in an RCIA class. Again, with no intention of converting!!

I know I’ll definitely be going to Easter Sunday Mass with my family, as I always do (and won’t be at Sacrament Meeting). Sadly I won’t be able to make the Easter Vigil, since I work until late night that weekend. Palm Sunday (that’s the Sunday before Easter Sunday right? haha) I should be able to attend the “Blessing of Palms and Solemn Mass”. The other days, I’ll have to check my schedule when it gets put out. On Good Friday, it looks like they’ll have a “Tenebrae” in the morning, and “Meditations on the Seven Last Words”. Any experience with those two things? And of course there will be the Solemn Liturgy of the Lord’s Passion and Death in the afternoon, so I’ll check if I can go to that.

Yeah I think defining words is important. Now that I think about it, I think much of my confusion could be solved by looking into what a “prophet” is in the Bible, what their role was, how they were called, what they did, etc, and compare that to modern LDS prophets. It is a widely used claim by LDS that we still have prophets in this day, that they aren’t just something you read about in the Bible. So now, the important thing to know is, are these prophets in our day functioning in the same manner as the ancient Judeo-Christian prophets?

 

[RebeccaJ]

I know I’ll definitely be going to Easter Sunday Mass with my family, as I always do (and won’t be at Sacrament Meeting). Sadly I won’t be able to make the Easter Vigil, since I work until late night that weekend. Palm Sunday (that’s the Sunday before Easter Sunday right? haha) I should be able to attend the “Blessing of Palms and Solemn Mass”. The other days, I’ll have to check my schedule when it gets put out. On Good Friday, it looks like they’ll have a “Tenebrae” in the morning, and “Meditations on the Seven Last Words”. Any experience with those two things? And of course there will be the Solemn Liturgy of the Lord’s Passion and Death in the afternoon, so I’ll check if I can go to that.

Yeah I think defining words is important. Now that I think about it, I think much of my confusion could be solved by looking into what a “prophet” is in the Bible, what their role was, how they were called, what they did, etc, and compare that to modern LDS prophets. It is a widely used claim by LDS that we still have prophets in this day, that they aren’t just something you read about in the Bible. So now, the important thing to know is, are these prophets in our day functioning in the same manner as the ancient Judeo-Christian prophets?

I go to the Liturgy of the Lord’s Passion and Death, which, is about 2 hours worth at my parish. I stay for a little while afterwards usually, to pray.

I work with our RCIA group so Holy Saturday is an all-day thing for me. We hold a retreat for our Elect in the morning, feed them lunch, and then back at the church an hour early for Easter Vigil. It is a long day, but beautiful, from start to finish.

As for studying from the Bible alone, that’s fine of course, but since Catholicism and Mormonism are not Bible-only religions, I’d look to what both churches teach and why. Get the whole picture.

From a Catholic POV, a prophet is a person given a gift of the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:11, used by LDS as a list of church positions, is seen by everyone else as a list of the different gifts of the Holy Spirit. Some are given the gift of prophecy. It isn’t indicated that the Holy Spirit is required to give this gift to a leader of Christ’s Church.

I recommend you seek Jesus Christ. Understand what it means to say, Jesus Christ is our Prophet. He has told us all we need to know, both in what He said and what He has done. He is the Word of God, perfectly Revealed.

 

[twopekinguys]

LW

You will enjoy the Chrism Mass. I know I do.

I don’t know how much you know about it, but that is the Mass where the Bishop of the Diocese blesses the oils the parishes will be using during the following liturgical year.

But, make sure you go to Holy Thursday as well. It is very moving and powerful.

 

[RebeccaJ]

LW7, this document explains well the priesthood, including the prophetic function of a priest.

Where LDS see prophecy as needed to provide something new, and by this you view “new” as “living”. We view the Church as alive in Christ. The prophetic office is His, and we share in it. We don’t share in something that is dead, but in something that is alive, as Christ is alive.

What this means, in practical terms, is that Jesus prophesied, is prophecy and is the fulfillment of all prophecy. We (the Church) are the continual and living fulfillment of His prophetic office.

More reading for you!

 

[LivingWaters7]

LW

You will enjoy the Chrism Mass. I know I do.

I don’t know how much you know about it, but that is the Mass where the Bishop of the Diocese blesses the oils the parishes will be using during the following liturgical year.

But, make sure you go to Holy Thursday as well. It is very moving and powerful.

Thanks, yeah I’ll know which Masses I can attend later this week.

LW7, this document explains well the priesthood, including the prophetic function of a priest.

Where LDS see prophecy as needed to provide something new, and by this you view “new” as “living”. We view the Church as alive in Christ. The prophetic office is His, and we share in it. We don’t share in something that is dead, but in something that is alive, as Christ is alive.

What this means, in practical terms, is that Jesus prophesied, is prophecy and is the fulfillment of all prophecy. We (the Church) are the continual and living fulfillment of His prophetic office.

More reading for you!

Wow thanks! I’ll have to take some time to digest all of that, it looks very interesting, and speaks to much of what I’m looking for.

 

[lynnettejane]

I go to the Liturgy of the Lord’s Passion and Death, which, is about 2 hours worth at my parish. I stay for a little while afterwards usually, to pray.

I work with our RCIA group so Holy Saturday is an all-day thing for me. We hold a retreat for our Elect in the morning, feed them lunch, and then back at the church an hour early for Easter Vigil. It is a long day, but beautiful, from start to finish.

As for studying from the Bible alone, that’s fine of course, but since Catholicism and Mormonism are not Bible-only religions, I’d look to what both churches teach and why. Get the whole picture.

From a Catholic POV, a prophet is a person given a gift of the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:11, used by LDS as a list of church positions, is seen by everyone else as a list of the different gifts of the Holy Spirit. Some are given the gift of prophecy. It isn’t indicated that the Holy Spirit is required to give this gift to a leader of Christ’s Church.
I think the epistle to the Hebrews brilliantly explains how Christ is the fulfilment of everything, the law and the prophets and shows quite cler

I recommend you seek Jesus Christ. Understand what it means to say, Jesus Christ is our Prophet. He has told us all we need to know, both in what He said and what He has done. He is the Word of God, perfectly Revealed.

 

[lynnettejane]

Hi all, sorry I don’t know what happened to my post, however with refence to Rbecca J’s post and LWs comments about prophets, it seems to me that the definitive answer is the Epistle to the Hebrew which shows quite clearly that the time of the porophets, in the OT sense of their being his mouthpiece has finished. Christ is their fulfilment and that of the Law. In fact the writer clearly show that the Levitical priesthood is defunct with the coming of our only high priest after the order of Melchisedek. So the LDS aaronic priesthood no longer has any function because of Christs perfect sacrifice, furthermore whatever the Melchisedek priesthood was it was obviously not open to all, all priestly duties were the remit of the sons of Levi, and had to be repeated through their own sinful nature. So all is complete in him