Considering Leaving Mormonism For Traditional Christianity...

[Marie5890]

Shouldn’t I? I mean, I don’t know what I’m supposed to do, to be honest, if/when I get to that point. I mean, it’s not like I could just stop coming and expect them to not attempt to contact me, visit, find out what happened, right? Especially being EQP, I couldn’t just quietly fade away like some people do, plus, even if I know longer believed, I wouldn’t want to leave those that do in turmoil, as far as how to go about running the EQ/needing to call someone else, etc.

I think it’s partially reputation, partially embarrassment/being duped. I wonder what my friends in the Church would think, how they would respond, etc. But yeah, those things shouldn’t be more important than having the Truth. I do have to meditate on that.

You could go in and tell him you want to be released. For personal reason. Do you think you have to give him a detailed reason? If so, be honest. You are questioning the the truthfulness of the LDS church.

If you are getting to the point of no longer believing, do you feel it’s fair and integral to continue and pretend?

I admit that is why I walked away. A matter of personal integrity. I couldnt pretend for my own integrity, nor pretend and mislead others and acted like I still believe.

It’s was my own personal honesty.
It’s a journey I know. And not an easy one.
Praying for you

 

[Marie5890]

Going public can be really difficult. I was employed by the LDS church when I told my bishop that I no longer believed. Nothing like having your paycheck depend on holding a current temple recommend to make the interview exciting!

That had to be VERY difficult, indeed.

Leaving the LDS church can be a very painful and painfilled experience. And yes, it rips families apart, too.

I hate the destruction that it sets up for so many people when they find that it’s teachings and it’s foundations is false, and based upon lies.

 

[Marie5890]

LW, I’ve been questioning my LDS faith for a very long time now. For more perspectives on the LDS faith you might check out the new order mormon website if you haven’t already. I have found it a great place to learn and discuss all things Mormon and not be judged.

Tweedle_Dee, you are the second LDS person who just showed up and recommended NOM.

Do NOM’s lurk here on CAF to see if someone like LW is here? The other person, literally signed up with in a day or so to post about NOM’s to LW. Now you are here.

Just curious.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Hi Living Waters,

I can totally relate to where you are at. I was in the same place several years ago, except I was raised in the Mormon faith and my family – wife, children, parents – are still LDS. For me also the existence or non-existence of a great apostasy was a core issue. After a lot of study and prayer, I eventually came to the conclusion that a complete apostasy of the early church was not supported by the historical evidence (early church fathers, always good to read the primary sources themselves), not consistent with the record of God’s dealings with his covenant people as recorded in the Old Testament, and not consistent with Jesus being the good shepherd and the church being his body and bride. So I was recently baptized and received in the Catholic Church.

It must be hard to be ex-LDS and a member of the Catholic Church, and have the rest of your family still in.

Yeah, I think I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that a total apostasy of the Church of Jesus Christ isn’t really consistent with the Bible, nor what the ancient Christians said. And I had a brief “mind-blown” moment when you referred to Jesus as the good shepherd. It does seem hard to imagine Jesus letting His earthly flock be led astray, after personally coming to the earth to preach His gospel and establish His Church (twice (at least), according to the LDS).

Funny that you bring up the Eucharist and the Real Presence. This for me was also very important. A church that gets the meaning of the central sacrament/ritual of Christianity wrong doesn’t really have a claim to being Christ’s church. A plain reading of the New Testament and the consensus of the early church fathers clearly points to a Catholic/Orthodox understanding of the Eucharist. A book you might find interesting on this subject is Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist: Unlocking the Secrets of the Last Supper by Brant Pitre. Highly recommended.

Agreed. It is very hard to refute.

Funny thing is, I already own “Jewish Roots of the Eucharist”! I’ve owned it for some time now, but haven’t read it yet. I did pull it off my bookshelf to read at some point as I go about all of this. I have a pretty decent sized library, and pulled out the following (or on the kindle) to help me as I go about this (though it’ll obviously take some time to get through it all!):

-Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist
-Upon This Rock-St Peter and the Primacy of Rome in Scripture and the Early Church
-The Primacy of Peter
-Mormon America
-The Mormon Mirage
-The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power
-One Nation Under Gods
-An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins
-Inevitable Apostasy and Promised Restoration
-The World and the Prophets
-From Apostles to Bishops
-All Things Restored
-Restoring the Ancient Church
-Mass of the Early Christians
-One Holy Catholic and Apostolic-The Early Church Was the Catholic Church
-Four Witnesses-The Early Church in Her Own Words
-An American Fraud
-The Great Apostasy
-The God Makers (yeah I know, it’s not good, I’m just curious what it says)
-Turning From the Truth
-From Apostasy to Restoration
-Rough Stone Rolling
-Becoming Gods: A Closer Look at 21st Century Mormonism
-No Man Knows My History

CRAZY, I know. Most likely won’t be reading all of them, let’s be honest, but I’m glad I have these resources, on both sides, to help in my decision, in addition to prayer and Bible study, of course.

ETA: I’ve also given in and pulled up those critical LDS documentaries. I’ve watched “The Lost Book of Abraham” before, but I decided to re-watch it in light of everything. I also pulled up The Bible vs The Book of Mormon (I also have watched that before, but don’t think I paid attention to it), and The Bible vs Joseph Smith.

 

[Tweedle_Dee]

Tweedle_Dee, you are the second LDS person who just showed up and recommended NOM.

Do NOM’s lurk here on CAF to see if someone like LW is here? The other person, literally signed up with in a day or so to post about NOM’s to LW. Now you are here.

Just curious.

LOL. Never heard another person at NOM mention this forum. I’ve been investigating the Catholic church for some time now and come here occasionally. I just happen to pop in here today and see this thread. No connection with the other person at all.

BTW, my opinion is that it will not be a productive discussion to talk with your bishop or stake president about your faith crisis. They won’t want to discuss any particulars about church history and will tell you to pray harder, read your scriptures more, and to stop sinning (you must be sinning if you’re questioning, right?)

 

[Janderich]

Hi LivingWaters,
Let me put in my two cents. You have received advice from ex-LDS and Catholics up to this point but of course as an active LDS member I have a different perspective. So let me give my thoughts which here no doubt will be questioned in every regard.

Let me write just for a moment about the Book of Mormon. This book claims to contain the word of the Lord and the testimonies of those who have seen Him. It is their personal witnesses of him. If it is true, through their words one may come to know how to approach God. It then would be the most important book to come to light since the Bible cannon was deemed closed.

Few here will agree with me on the above point because they claim it is all a fabrication. But I have yet to see an adequate explanation for the actual content of this book from anyone who doesn’t believe it is a translation of an ancient record. Oh they may comment about DNA, the method of translation, or the lack of physical external evidences. Such things concern me very little. Time will bring the truth of these matters out.

But what of the words it contains? This is what matters! Many who comment about it have not even read the book from beginning to end, much less studied it. Those who have left the church have read it more completely but I think they are untrue to what they have read. This book is much more complex then they give it credit for. They try to pass it off by saying most of it is the Bible repackaged, or that it contains repetitious phrases like, “it came to pass” over and over again. Please, what a pathetic and absolutely unfair representation of this book. It is complex and filled with Hebrew poetry. It is absolutely stuffed with insight about God. Joseph Smith could not have written this book. Nor could he with the small combination of people he associated with. If this book is what it claims to be, a record of an ancient peoples dealings with the Lord, then it should be welcomed by any serious seeker of truth, not rejected out of hand.

Moreover, I have not seen anyone who is able to convincingly argue that the three or eight witnesses did not see the gold plates. Oh they try and point out that Martin Harris saw it with his “spiritual eyes” but they ignore the many other comments he made. They try and bring doubt about the written testimonies in the front of the book but they ignore all other statements. These men, to their dying day, testified they had seen the plates.

Anyone who leaves the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints must ignore the contents of the Book of Mormon, even as they stumble over it on the way out.

Now, just a word about truth. If you feel by the testimony of the spirit that you have found a better way…. If the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants, the Temple, and doctrines of the LDS church seem false… Then I say, follow the spirit of truth as you find it. Joseph Smith once said, “It is a love of liberty which inspires my soul—civil and religious liberty to the whole of the human race. Love of liberty was diffused into my soul by my grandfathers while they dandled me on their knees. …If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way.” (History of the Church, 5:498–99) This is my continued search, and if it is yours I feel confident that at some future day we will yet see eye to eye.

 

[twopekinguys]

Hi LivingWaters,
Let me put in my two cents. You have received advice from ex-LDS and Catholics up to this point but of course as an active LDS member I have a different perspective. So let me give my thoughts which here no doubt will be questioned in every regard.

Let me write just for a moment about the Book of Mormon. This book claims to contain the word of the Lord and the testimonies of those who have seen Him. It is their personal witnesses of him. If it is true, through their words one may come to know how to approach God. It then would be the most important book to come to light since the Bible cannon was deemed closed.

Few here will agree with me on the above point because they claim it is all a fabrication. But I have yet to see an adequate explanation for the actual content of this book from anyone who doesn’t believe it is a translation of an ancient record. Oh they may comment about DNA, the method of translation, or the lack of physical external evidences. Such things concern me very little. Time will bring the truth of these matters out.

But what of the words it contains? This is what matters! Many who comment about it have not even read the book from beginning to end, much less studied it. Those who have left the church have read it more completely but I think they are untrue to what they have read. This book is much more complex then they give it credit for. They try to pass it off by saying most of it is the Bible repackaged, or that it contains repetitious phrases like, “it came to pass” over and over again. Please, what a pathetic and absolutely unfair representation of this book. It is complex and filled with Hebrew poetry. It is absolutely stuffed with insight about God. Joseph Smith could not have written this book. Nor could he with the small combination of people he associated with. This book is what it claims to be, a record of an ancient peoples dealings with the Lord. It should be welcomed by any serious seeker of truth, not rejected out of hand.

Moreover, I have not seen anyone who is able to convincingly argue that the three or eight witnesses did not see the gold plates. Oh they try and point out that Martin Harris saw it with his “spiritual eyes” but they ignore the many other comments he made. They try and bring doubt about the written testimonies in the front of the book but they ignore all other statements. These men, to their dying day, testified they had seen the plates.

Anyone who leaves the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints must ignore the contents of the Book of Mormon, even as they stumble over it on the way out.

Now, just a word about truth. If you feel by the testimony of the spirit that you have found a better way…. If the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants, the Temple, and doctrines of the LDS church seem false… Then I say, follow the spirit of truth as you find it. Joseph Smith once said, “It is a love of liberty which inspires my soul—civil and religious liberty to the whole of the human race. Love of liberty was diffused into my soul by my grandfathers while they dandled me on their knees. …If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way.” (History of the Church, 5:498–99) This is my continued search, and if it is yours I feel confident that at some future day we will yet see eye to eye.

This is gonna get good.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This is gonna get good.

Just looks to me as the same old, ignore the man behind the curtain, and put your doubts on a shelf. I think it is clear that there isn’t a person here who was once LDS who is able to do that.

Oh yeah, and the usual passive-aggressive mud slinging at people who left. Just makes me even happier that I’m out of that freaking cult.

 

[twopekinguys]

Just looks to me as the same old, ignore the man behind the curtain, and put your doubts on a shelf. I think it is clear that there isn’t a person here who was once LDS who is able to do that.

Oh yeah, and the usual passive-aggressive mud slinging at people who left. Just makes me even happier that I’m out of that freaking cult.

Over the years, and I’ve lived quite a few, I noticed everything mormon is emotion based.

I remember back in the mid to late 70’s, the commercials aimed (literally) at those people suffering some sort of hardship.

Feeling abandoned, alone, depressed, etc. etc. Let us send you a BoM, and a missionary. (paraphrasing of course, but not much)

If you’re on your way out, it’s all guilt trips.

Amazing.

Right now, mormon central is tracking LW7’s IP address, and matching it to the microchip implant on file.

Expect to be love bombed…

 

[Stephen168]

Let me write just for a moment about the Book of Mormon. This book **claims **to contain the word of the Lord and the testimonies of those who have seen Him. It is their personal witnesses of him. **If **it is true, through their words one may come to know how to approach God. It then would be the most important book to come to light since the Bible cannon was deemed closed.

A claim does not make it true.

In the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith claims the Book of Mormon is the source of the aboriginal people of America. This is also what my Mormon friends believed in 1970’s; all American Indians were Semitic people who came from the middle-east about 2,000 years before Christ. I understand until very recently, Native members and investigators were still being told they are the people of the Book of Mormon.
At the time they told me the basic story of the Book of Mormon, scientists knew the American Indians came from Asia over 10,000 years before Christ. They knew by comparing their languages, physiology, and archeological evidence.
Since the 1970’s, DNA confirms what Scientist have know about the true source of the American Indians. Additional evidence has also pushed back the date the first Asian arrival by 2 to 4 times; making the Book of Mormon wrong by 20,000 years, and Joseph Smith wrong about the story being true.

 

[SteveVH]

Joseph Smith once said, “It is a love of liberty which inspires my soul—civil and religious liberty to the whole of the human race. Love of liberty was diffused into my soul by my grandfathers while they dandled me on their knees. …If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way.” (History of the Church, 5:498–99)

That is, unless, one decides to leave the Church. Then we will say that they were “untrue” to what they read and believed and we will track them down wherever they move and keep bugging them until we receive a formal letter instructing us to stop and by which we are legally bound to do so.

My daughter-in-law is experiencing this very thing as we speak.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Over the years, and I’ve lived quite a few, I noticed everything mormon is emotion based.

I remember back in the mid to late 70’s, the commercials aimed (literally) at those people suffering some sort of hardship.

Feeling abandoned, alone, depressed, etc. etc. Let us send you a BoM, and a missionary. (paraphrasing of course, but not much)

If you’re on your way out, it’s all guilt trips.

Amazing.

True that.

 

[truthseeker32]

…I have yet to see an adequate explanation for the actual content of this book from anyone who doesn’t believe it is a translation of an ancient record.

I would like to raise what I believe is one of the most important factors I have encountered in talking to both Mormons and former Mormons. The state at which we begin considering some argument has significant bearing on how we will judge the strengths of it. Rather than considering arguments for and against our respective faiths with the intent to strengthen our own position we need to attempt to have as open a mind as possible. When I first began considering arguments against the LDS faith it was so I could become a better LDS apologist.

As long as I had a “I am going to read this criticism in order to find reasons to believe more strongly what I already hold” mindset, I was already doing myself a disservice. Once I stepped back and started asking “what is true?” rather than “how can I debunk this argument to strengthen my faith?” everything changed. Things like chiasmus, Nahom, Hebraisms, etc. no longer had the same power they previously did. If you start with the objective of proving something to yourself, your standard for “good evidence” is lowered significantly.

Applying this to BOM authorship specifically, what would you consider an adequate explanation? Beyond-a-doubt debunking? A better explanation than the LDS church provides? An explanation just as probable as the explanation the LDS church provides? The first will likely never be offered in a Cartesian/ Humean, empiricist sense, but I believe the latter two have already been provided. Book of Mormon apologists are like theists who adhere to their belief in God because atheists can’t prove there isn’t a god. It is poor argument, and poor basis for faith.

 

[lynnettejane]

Thanks, I’ll look into that book.

And yes, no matter, what I will always love the LDS Church and LDS people. I don’t think it’s a cult, and generally LDS just want to do what’s right and what we believe is true, and we really do believe that ours is the true Church, that Christ is our Savior, etc. However, at times, I do miss lighting a candle in front of a statue or icon, cleansing myself with holy water when entering the church, singing psalms and all those little devotional things that really seem to connect to ancient Judaism and Christianity. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I love the temple and walking around sacred space, etc., but it’s…not the same. It’s funny, some LDS are very interested in the writings of Margaret Barker, and find parallels between what she says about “temple themes” in Christian worship vs. LDS temple worship, yet her writings are really about Catholic and Orthodox worship!

Hi Livingwaters, why don’t you try doing the things you miss? The Lord told us to pray in our secret place, so there is no reason as part of your journey not to go into a Catholic church, especially during Lent, and do those thing that are still obviously part of your own spirituality. Find a church that is open during the day for devotions, and be at peace. The worst part fo your journey right now is the destruction of peace that it causes, let God restore it, trust the Holy Spirit, and God bless you. Why not attend Easter vigil if you can, and don’t be afraid, put your hand in God’s, let him lead you.

 

[lynnettejane]

I appreciated Frank Sheed’s books (Theology and Sanity and Theology for Beginners) during my journey. Although, I guess I read them in the wrong order, I found if you read Theology and Sanity first, you won’t need to read the for Beginners.

I have to agree with TruthSeeker, I found as I dug into mormon apologetics that I was disappointed. This was difficult at that point in my journey. I had already drifted pretty far from the religion, but that was nearly the nail in the coffin.

God Bless

I would also recommend Frank Sheed’s books, many are downloadable onto Kindle, why not look at churchfathers/org where the writings of the early Fathers are there ready to read online.

 

[lynnettejane]

I don’t have a lot to offer, wish I did, except that I am right there with you. My issues and questions are different then yours, though. But this isn’t the first time I found myself on this boat. The first time was in 2007, when I Googled “Black Sheep” because that is EXACTLY what I felt like in the LDS church. The second time was in 2011, when I discovered MORE history then I had in 2007. I just had to walk away at that point, it was too much. I had planned on going on my own journey starting with the family tree of religions. Starting at the bottom and working myself up, but when I heard there was no historical/archeological evidence for Christ, I started Googling to prove it wrong… except, I found, there really wasn’t. At that point, I had been floundering, my children had been floundering and I needed to give them stability and God. I felt like I left the LDS sinking ship becomes of too many holes in their history and doctrine. If I jumped their ship, for Christianity, and yet could find not a lot of evidence on Jesus’ existence… well I KNEW I’d stay on this ship because I could NOT deny Jesus’ birth, or life. So then, rationality lead me too, “why did I jump theirs” (LDS)? Does that make sense??

Anyway, I through myself into the church for the past few months, and it was through reading Galatians in my NIV student Bible that things began to crumble for me… again. It was in reading the Introduction where it explains that Paul was angry and saw ominous dangers for the church. One was that people would begin to believe that they could get acceptance by God by their own human effort (works), and not Christ’s sacrifice. The other was insistence to strict rules would bring the side effect of subtle distinctions. In doing that, we would begin to snub or look down on one another. In the end, these 2 things would pervert the gospel and divide the church.

Well I saw BOTH of those things within the LDS church. You can say we (the LDS church) believe in Christs sacrifice and atonement. I have read some of your other posts while doing my own research today. But the fact remains we can not attain the highest level of glory, or live in the presence of God in Heaven unless we hold a temple recommend, And in order to do that we must follow and obey the Word of Wisdom- we must give up coffee, tea, alcohol, and tobacco. We must pay a full tithe of 10%. We must accept Joseph as a Prophet of God. So right there we have to accept someone who is NOT Jesus before we can get to the temple in order to gain access to God. And we must do acts, or works to get the recommend to get this, and get into the heaven where God lives. Once we get the recommend then we must get endowed, get sealed, and obey all temple covenants to complete our ability to live with God one day. Again, works. I am not trying to lecture you, please don’t take it that way… I am trying to explain my own rationale as this was unraveling for me in my own head

Anyway, your post finally sparked me into making an account so I can say in a very long-winded post, “You are not alone”. I have already sent an e-mail to my closest Catholic church in order to get “their side”, get answers/truth, and hopefully learn more about the hirstory of everything that went down. I also encourage you to go to forum.newordermormon.org/viewforum.php?f=11 This site was instrumental in finding other like me. Many have ultimately left, some have stayed, and others are still like us in limbo. It’s helpful to NOT be alone.

Best of luck, and best wishes…

I believe you have an awful lot to offer, welcome to CAF, God love you

 

[Aramis]

So now what?-
[snip]
Anyway, just wanted to share, and appreciate thoughts from all perspectives. I have more thoughts on this, but have to run to work, and wanted to get this in before I run. I’ll post again late tonight/tomorrow. Oh and I don’t accept PMs (for various reasons), so I’d appreciate thoughts posted in the thread.

Well, when you drop the idea of the great apostasy, you get into the validity of the ordinations. Unbroken transmission of Ordination without a formal breaking away leaves you two branches to look at. Catholic, and Orthodox.

Look at them both. Real presence, real ordination, real deacons, presbyters, and bishops, as mentioned in the epistles of St. Paul.

Compare how they fit to the Pauline writings’ evidence.

Compare the liturgy to that outlined in the Apostolic Constitutions (CCEL.org has them online (link) in several formats.)

 

[havasupai]

-Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist
-Upon This Rock-St Peter and the Primacy of Rome in Scripture and the Early Church
-The Primacy of Peter
-Mormon America
-The Mormon Mirage
-The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power
-One Nation Under Gods
-An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins
-Inevitable Apostasy and Promised Restoration
-The World and the Prophets
-From Apostles to Bishops
-All Things Restored
-Restoring the Ancient Church
-Mass of the Early Christians
-One Holy Catholic and Apostolic-The Early Church Was the Catholic Church
-Four Witnesses-The Early Church in Her Own Words
-An American Fraud
-The Great Apostasy
-The God Makers (yeah I know, it’s not good, I’m just curious what it says)
-Turning From the Truth
-From Apostasy to Restoration
-Rough Stone Rolling
-Becoming Gods: A Closer Look at 21st Century Mormonism
-No Man Knows My History

Wow! Pretty long reading list. If you’re willing to add to it, my favorite Catholic book (besides the Catechism, which of course is essential reading) is *The Spirit of Catholicism *by Karl Adam. The Kindle version is only $3.

 

[havasupai]

Starting at the bottom and working myself up, but when I heard there was no historical/archeological evidence for Christ, I started Googling to prove it wrong… except, I found, there really wasn’t. At that point, I had been floundering, my children had been floundering and I needed to give them stability and God. I felt like I left the LDS sinking ship becomes of too many holes in their history and doctrine. If I jumped their ship, for Christianity, and yet could find not a lot of evidence on Jesus’ existence… well I KNEW I’d stay on this ship because I could NOT deny Jesus’ birth, or life. So then, rationality lead me too, “why did I jump theirs” (LDS)? Does that make sense??

I don’t know what you’ve been reading on the internet with regards to the existence of Jesus, but by any reasonable historical standard a 1st century Jewish teacher by the name of Jesus did exist and lived and died in Roman occupied Palestine. Its the only explanation that makes sense of the historical data that we do have. If we reject it, all we are left with are implausible convoluted conspiracy theories. Almost all reputable scholars of early Christianity accept the existence of the man Jesus, although they may disagree on exactly what he taught and did.

 

[havasupai]

Even Bart Ehrman, who is not a believer and is critical in many ways of the story traditional Christianity tells about itself, accepts the existence of Jesus as a historical fact. He even wrote a book on it - Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth