Constantine invented Catholicism

[De_Maria]

By comparing the way Christianity/Catholicism operates in countries where it was not adopted as the State religion, or for a much briefer time.

Then there is the first 330 years as well. State religions are very different beasts.

Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church. That’s what the Catholic Church Teaches. So, you’re rejecting the Catholic Teaching:

CCC#763 It was the Son’s task to accomplish the Father’s plan of salvation in the fullness of time. Its accomplishment was the reason for his being sent.160 "The Lord Jesus inaugurated his Church by preaching the Good News, that is, the coming of the Reign of God, promised over the ages in the scriptures."161 To fulfill the Father’s will, Christ ushered in the Kingdom of heaven on earth. The Church "is the Reign of Christ already present in mystery."162

CCC#771 "The one mediator, Christ, established and ever sustains here on earth his holy Church, …

 

[BlackFriar]

Yes Jesus started a renewal movement he explicitly confined to the children of Israel.

 

[rcwitness]

I found this passage in Matthew 2 interesting…

When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him; 4 and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea

The king, or Emperor, had the authority to summon a Council. Constantine was a converted believer, but he also had the highest secular authority, which we are called to be subject to. Yet, we know that Jesus is our true Lord, and cannot comply with something that contradicts His Teaching.

Furthermore, we believe the authority invested in Peter has greater authority than a king, since Jesus (our true high Priest and King) is represented by our leaders. This is primarily established for “strengthening” the faithful, in regards to affirming matters faith and morals.

I think arguments could be made that there were some “weakening” consequences from Constantine liberating the Church from persecution. But there was constructive achievements made through it, and an end to great trials.

Still, the devil uses many tactics to give us trials!

 

[De_Maria]

Yes Jesus started a renewal movement he explicitly confined to the children of Israel.

Matthew 28:18 [a]Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.[c] And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

What does “catholic” mean?

830 The word “catholic” means “universal,” in the sense of “according to the totality” or “in keeping with the whole.” The Church is catholic in a double sense:

First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. "Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church."307 In her subsists the fullness of Christ’s body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him "the fullness of the means of salvation"308 which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost309 and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.

831 Secondly, the Church is catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole of the human race:310

All men are called to belong to the new People of God. This People, therefore, while remaining one and only one, is to be spread throughout the whole world and to all ages in order that the design of God’s will may be fulfilled: he made human nature one in the beginning and has decreed that all his children who were scattered should be finally gathered together as one. . . . The character of universality which adorns the People of God is a gift from the Lord himself whereby the Catholic Church ceaselessly and efficaciously seeks for the return of all humanity and all its goods, under Christ the Head in the unity of his Spirit.311

 

[rcwitness]

Yes. The promises of Jesus divided the children of Israel. And some who were outside of Israel, became part of Israel through belief, while some inside Israel became outside through disbelief.

Romans 11

Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved

 

[BlackFriar]

Matthew 28:18 [a]Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit.”

What is the relevance.
Where does it say to make non-Jewish disciples?

They started out as Jewish Catholics not Roman Catholics.

Why did Peter and Paul agonise over leaving Judaism and then only many years after the Resurrection if resurrected Jesus taught this so clearly? Maybe he didn’t say so clearly what you think he said.

 

[Brendan]

I stand by my statement, just looked it up God Bless

And I would claim that Christians could legally, freely and openly worship prior to the Edict of Milan.

 

[rcwitness]

De_Maria:

Matthew 28:18 [a]Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit.”

What is the relevance.
Where does it say to make non-Jewish disciples?

They started out as Jewish Catholics not Roman Catholics.

Why did Peter and Paul agonise over leaving Judaism and then only many years after the Resurrection if resurrected Jesus taught this so clearly? Maybe he didn’t say so clearly what you think he said.

Matthew 28
"… go therefore and make disciples of all nations"

The disciples were slow to understand much about Jesus’ Teachings. But Jesus revealed to Peter His plan at Joppa.

Act 10

“You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit any one of another nation; but God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me…
… Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him."

Mark 7

And from there he arose and went away to the region of Tyre and Sidon.And he entered a house, and would not have any one know it; yet he could not be hid…
…Now the woman was a Greek, a Syrophoeni′cian by birth…
And he said to her, “Let the children first be fed, for it is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”

Jesus was already making the Gentiles clean during His ministry. First to the Jews, then to all nations.

Romans 1

For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The Catholic Church is not “Roman” because it began in Rome, or that it’s members are Roman. It is not Roman at all. It is Catholic. Rome is the reference to the See which has primacy, because Peter died there. That was where he left his Episcopate, and Catholics believe Peter had universal jurisdiction in the whole Church.

 

[De_Maria]

What is the relevance.

The world includes more than just Jews.

Where does it say to make non-Jewish disciples?

Where does it say not to.

They started out as Jewish Catholics not Roman Catholics.

There are all types of Catholics. Hebrews, Greek, Latin. Etc

Why did Peter and Paul agonise over leaving Judaism and then only many years after the Resurrection if resurrected Jesus taught this so clearly?

Becausse they knew that many of their Jewish brethren would be lost because they wouldnt turn to Christ.

Maybe he didn’t say so clearly what you think he said.

He said it plain enough and the Catholic Church so Teaches.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Where does it say not to.

:raised_hand_with_fingers_splayed:t4:

Indeed!

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

Matthew 15:

22
And behold, a Canaanite woman of that district came and called out, “Have pity on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is tormented by a demon.”
23
But he did not say a word in answer to her. His disciples came and asked him, “Send her away, for she keeps calling out after us.”
24
* He said in reply, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
25
j But the woman came and did him homage, saying, “Lord, help me.”
26
He said in reply, “It is not right to take the food of the children* and throw it to the dogs.”
27
She said, “Please, Lord, for even the dogs eat the scraps that fall from the table of their masters.”
28
_k Then Jesus said to her in reply, O woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed from that hour.

 

[nearlycatholic]

I’m an Adventist. People tell me all the time Ellen White “invented” SDA church . NOT!
Constantine DID NOT INVENT Catholicism!

 

[niceatheist]

niceatheist:

Well, that’s what the Bishop of Rome liked to think, but the Eastern churches certainly had their own ideas.

That wasn’t until 1054. We’re talking 325 here.

Even so, not all, went into schism. There are still 23 Eastern Rite churches in communion with Rome.

Even in 325, the pre-eminence of Rome was essentially ceremonial.

 

[De_Maria]

Even in 325, the pre-eminence of Rome was essentially ceremonial.

Nooe. All the Church recognized that the Pope was the greater amongst equals.

Clement of Rome

Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D.

http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_primacy_of_rome.htm

 

[BlackFriar]

For something so plain where is it?
The very early Church was largely trying to bring followers of Christ into Judaism and the Synagogues, an internal group like the Pharisees or Sadducees, identified by circumcision and baptism.
That was clearly his plan in his lifetime.

What the resurrected Jesus wanted is ambiguous.
Eventually his followers broke away from Judaism and formed an independent community. Baptism was maintained though Gentiles were no longer required to become Jews to belong. It is likely Jewish members remained practising Jews as well until the Jewish leaders banned Christians from the Synagogues.

Yes Jesus sometimes healed others than Jews where their faith was strong.

So yes Jesus started a Christian school within Judaism.
The apostles changed it significantly by eventually breaking away from Judaism.
And Constantine changed it further by making it a State religion and the bishops State officials.

So yes Jesus started a sect that eventually became catholic in the sense of the word we use today. It started out with its headquarters in Palestine which eventually changed to Rome. In the 2nd Millenium Protestants invented the appellation Roman Catholicism.

So there is some truth in saying others had a significant contribution in changing Christianity into a significantly different beast from what Jesus founded.

 

[qui_est_ce]

http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_primacy_of_rome.htm

k_hand:t4:k_hand:t4:

Great Website!

 

[anna]

Yes you can. God Bless:

 

[Entwhistler]

And Constantine changed it further by making it a State religion and the bishops State officials.

Constantine did not make Christianity the state religion. He merely made it legal. Theodosius I made Christianity the state religion in the late 4th century. Constantine definitely changed Christianity by making it politically acceptable to be a member. But he did not have as much authority over the bishops as he would have if they were state officials.

 

[BlackFriar]

Interesting.
What is your definition of State Religion?

 

[De_Maria]

So there is some truth in saying others had a significant contribution in changing Christianity into a significantly different beast from what Jesus founded.

Nope. They made significant contributions in advancing Christ’s cause. But Christ Himself prophesied that the Church seed would grow into a huge plant.

And there is no truth in saying that Constantine invented the Catholic Church. None.

 

[Entwhistler]

Off the top of my head I would say a religion that all or most people must belong to. That happened in the Roman Empire with the promulgation of the Edict of Thessalonica.

Of course, you might say that an unofficial state religion would be one that folks must be members of to gain essential societal benefits. Just thinking out loud in this last part.