Constantine invented Catholicism

[BlackFriar]

You can think whatever you like about my avatar.
How about addressing the topic instead.

 

[BlackFriar]

Its an interesting question.
Despite separation of Church and State the US still seems to assume Christianity as normative and Christian values as its underpinning. Likewise Britain in some way. European countries still seem to consider themselves Christian in some way.

Constantine did promote bishops to senior state roles, yes likely to control them as well.
He also restored property and built new buildings for them. So its a little more than toleration though as you say not exactly declaring a state religion (though fighting under the sign of Christ re the army is significant if actually historical).

 

[BlackFriar]

BlackFriar:

Well when you can find where Jesus said circumcision was not necessary to be his disciple (as did Peter and Paul eventually) please let me know.

Luke 10:16, whoever listens to you, listens to me.

Please.
Lets have an intelligent discussion.

 

[De_Maria]

qui_est_ce:

BlackFriar:

Well when you can find where Jesus said circumcision was not necessary to be his disciple (as did Peter and Paul eventually) please let me know.

Luke 10:16, whoever listens to you, listens to me.

Please.
Lets have an intelligent discussion.

What, are you having trouble understanding his point? A Catholic knows that the Church speaks for Jesus Christ. Therefore, since the Church Teaches that circumcision is not necessary to be His disciple, whenever you hear the Church, you hear Christ.

 

[yankeesouth]

De_Maria once again they have resorted to name calling but for us Catholics being called ‘arrogant’ is a compliment!

Remember what I said…

The Catholic Church was founded by the One who said I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. A pretty arrogant statement. In fact He was killed because of it. Truth has always been accused of arrogance.

Keep up the Good Work!

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria once again they have resorted to name calling but for us Catholics being called ‘arrogant’ is a compliment!

Remember what I said…

The Catholic Church was founded by the One who said I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. A pretty arrogant statement. In fact He was killed because of it. Truth has always been accused of arrogance.

Keep up the Good Work!

Thanks. You too!

 

[Quaestor]

The Romans did not have a 7 day week until Constantine introduced it. The 7 day week was used by Jews, Christians, and some other civilizations in the near east. There was no colossal statue at the coliseum was actually NERO!!! Stop with the cow pucky. Remember the cult of Sol was only introduced in in the 270s. Sol was the sun, the Romans has a word for it Sol. But the Romans did not have a pagan religion, what they had was a pagan cult. They did not worship their deities. They honored their deities by performing duties not actual worship! There was a roman deity of etruscan (I believe) early on but that faded as Greek culture came to influence the Latin people.

 

[BlackFriar]

Until the Pope disagrees with such persons as in AL…but of course then the Pope no longer represents Christ.
Please spare us these unfalsifiable flat-earth type circular “reasonings”.
Nothing more to see here if it isnt self evident.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Which of those opinions bar one from following the requirements Christ set forth for us to follow in order to be saved?

How do you know what Christ set forth for us to follow in order to be saved? Catholics, Calvinists, Baptists, Lutherans, nondenominationals all have different criteria for who is saved.

Because many members of the Orthodoxy are afraid of not being allowed to be saved unless they profess belief in these things they don’t truly understand you will always have some members of the Orthodoxy professing one thing while thinking another.

What do you mean by Orthodoxy?

 

[niceatheist]

The Romans did not have a 7 day week until Constantine introduced it. The 7 day week was used by Jews, Christians, and some other civilizations in the near east. There was no colossal statue at the coliseum was actually NERO!!! Stop with the cow pucky. Remember the cult of Sol was only introduced in in the 270s. Sol was the sun, the Romans has a word for it Sol. But the Romans did not have a pagan religion, what they had was a pagan cult. They did not worship their deities. They honored their deities by performing duties not actual worship! There was a roman deity of etruscan (I believe) early on but that faded as Greek culture came to influence the Latin people.

The ancient Italic peoples had a fairly standard Indo-European pantheon; for instance, Jupiter was the Italic form of Zeus; Deus Pater=Dues-pater=Jupiter. This is a pretty standard example of the various Indo-European languages and mythologies related to each. Another example of the Proto-Indo-European god Deus Pater is the ancient Vedic god Dyaus Pita, which is an example of how the Proto-Indo-European pantheon, or at least portions of it, survived thousands of years of tens of thousands of miles of the great diaspora of the Indo-European peoples.

So really, the Roman adoption of the Greek Pantheon didn’t involve that many new gods, though the Greeks, through their contact with Anatolia and Semitic peoples, did adopt some Eastern religious aspects. And there certainly were religious rites and orders in pagan Rome such as the Vestal Virgins.

 

[Quaestor]

That’s rather my point. I would argue that in a lot of cases in those early years, that primacy was more ceremonial than in fact, and Rome didn’t really have any meaningful power to impose its will.

Not exactly true, but there is truth in it. Acts 1 to a Jew is important as it is evident that Peter is the nasi (prince. he is the prince of the apostles). As the Nasi of the Synagogue he address the beit din and gives it direction. It is evident also that a beit din was created and those who follow Peter, the man in succession become the Nasi. Evey synagogue must have a nasi and we know from Acts 1 that the Church followed Judaic law when founding the Synagogue. Further more and this is very important the beit din which Peter headed was not an ordinary beit din, it was a the Great Sanhedrin itself recreated by Christ who unified the nasi back into the Beit Din which was from 190 BC headed by the Av Beit Din due to heresy of the High Priest. But this is restored by Christ in the person of Peter who actually gives the beit din the direction. The office of the Great Sanhedrin Nasi was the hereditary office. The current head of state of Israel is the Nasi of Judaism. So there is supposed to be a Nasi over the whole Church as was in Judaism. However, in practical terms, the pope would have trouble imposing his will early on, due to Christanity being widespread and the travel involved.

The situation that evolved after the collapse of the Western empire was that Rome’s de facto primacy was over the former territories of the Western empire, and the Patriarchs of Constantinople, under the auspices of the Byzantine Emperors, were the head of the Eastern Church (the somewhat mislabeled theory of Caesaropapism).

The pope did give direction to the patriarchs. The bible itself is a product of this ability of the pope to direct the other patriarchs and impose on the whole Church the canon of the bible which Rome used. Remember all the Orthodox use the same formal canon as Catholics. Many Churches in the east were using differing canons, Even today the pope is one of 24 patriarchs in the Catholic Church. The Catechism as we have it ONLY applies to the Latin church not to the other 23 patriarchs. Most of what the pope does applies only to the Western.Latins and not to our Eastern Catholics. Even the Vatican Council II did not apply to the Eastern Churches even though they had a seat at the councils. The Eastern Church manage themselves for the most part and have very little direction given by the pope.

 

[rcwitness]

Until the Pope disagrees with such persons as in AL…but of course then the Pope no longer represents Christ.
Please spare us these unfalsifiable flat-earth type circular “reasonings”.
Nothing more to see here if it isnt self evident.

Except it’s not nearly as convenient as you wish, since AL directly contradicts the last two Pope’s Teachings. So it becomes a conflict of Papal teachings. And that is the ligitimate concern

 

[hope]

You may believe that it is stupid that Constantine started from scratch the Catholic Church but that is what many people believe. Just do a web search. It makes me scratch my head that you do not know what is meant by Catholicism??? The standard definition is

the faith, practice, and church order of the Roman Catholic Church.

However, I would quibble with the “Roman” but that is for another thread. It is the way that other posters seem to mean when they say Catholicism.

 

[De_Maria]

Until the Pope disagrees with such persons as in AL…

What are you talking about now? Are you responding to the right post?

but of course then the Pope no longer represents Christ.

So, now you don’t believe the Pope represents Christ?

Please spare us these unfalsifiable flat-earth type circular “reasonings”.

Where do you get this stuff? I know, you’re going to tell me that you believe black boxes are black and then act like you made a valid point.

Nothing more to see here if it isnt self evident.

Well, at least you admit you can’t see.

 

[De_Maria]

Your not getting my point.

We get it, you don’t trust the Catholic Church.

Which of those opinions bar one from following the requirements Christ set forth for us to follow in order to be saved?

The ones that have anathemas attached if you reject them.

They have nothing to do with our ability to be saved nor does holding to any one of those opinions bar us from being saved concerning the requirements as Christ set forth.

One of the requirements that Christ set forth is that you must believe the Church:

Matthew 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

 

[Quaestor]

Quaestor:

The Romans did not have a 7 day week until Constantine introduced it. The 7 day week was used by Jews, Christians, and some other civilizations in the near east. There was no colossal statue at the coliseum was actually NERO!!! Stop with the cow pucky. Remember the cult of Sol was only introduced in in the 270s. Sol was the sun, the Romans has a word for it Sol. But the Romans did not have a pagan religion, what they had was a pagan cult. They did not worship their deities. They honored their deities by performing duties not actual worship! There was a roman deity of etruscan (I believe) early on but that faded as Greek culture came to influence the Latin people.

The ancient Italic peoples had a fairly standard Indo-European pantheon; for instance, Jupiter was the Italic form of Zeus; Deus Pater=Dues-pater=Jupiter. This is a pretty standard example of the various Indo-European languages and mythologies related to each. Another example of the Proto-Indo-European god Deus Pater is the ancient Vedic god Dyaus Pita, which is an example of how the Proto-Indo-European pantheon, or at least portions of it, survived thousands of years of tens of thousands of miles of the great diaspora of the Indo-European peoples.

So really, the Roman adoption of the Greek Pantheon didn’t involve that many new gods, though the Greeks, through their contact with Anatolia and Semitic peoples, did adopt some Eastern religious aspects. And there certainly were religious rites and orders in pagan Rome such as the Vestal Virgins.

Absolute HOGWASH, There were no standard pantheon of deities among the many tribes found on the peninsula! WHAT STANDARD PANTHEON? WHAT STANDARD PANTHEON? Show me the source material?? Where? Jupiter as not the Deus Pater of ANYTHING!!! WHERE WHERE WHERE??? PIE is a linguistic HYPOTHESIS! Not a religious one… non-PIE tribes and people had similar beliefs. Neither was Zeus the father god of the gods. STOP BEING SILLY! The Titans were the predecessors of the gods! Not Zeus/Jupiter you silly nitwit! Gaia, Uranus, Saturn were Titans the FATHERS OF THE GODS get it? Stop spewing cow pucky. PLEASE know the subject matter before you engage the comment. The Romans adopted every god they found as they were not only syncratic they were also henotheistic.

Further more, Vesta is not a deity who happens to be deity borrowed from other cultures but is one of the bona fide deities, I believe she was alban or latin. So I am unsure as to where you are inventing a Eastern religious aspect. Perhaps you need some remedial lessons in Roman mythos? Or do you make it up as you go, you know like inventing cow pucky. Vestan cult was one of the oldest of the true Roman cults

Just because two cultures have similar duties or practices, jumping to the conclusion that one is borrowing from the other is an exercise for the lazy arm chair amateurist. Don’t do that… many like me quickly lose respect for persons like that.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Your not getting my point.

You made a statement, I asked you to back it up, and you gave me this is non-sequitur response.

It is because of the absolute requirement of belief by the Catholic Church in something that isn’t understood or proven to be in error “a stumbling block” that bars many from becoming members. This may be the ultimate travesty.
Because many members of the Orthodoxy are afraid of not being allowed to be saved unless they profess belief in these things they don’t truly understand you will always have some members of the Orthodoxy professing one thing while thinking another. This is apparent from the discussions and disagreements that have always arisen from time to time between members of the same Church.

I don’t think any Catholic is afraid of going to Hell because they don’t understand every teaching. God’s ways are above our ways. Very, very few things are actually “required” to be believed by Christ in order to be saved. The rest is icing. When you love somebody, don’t you want to know more about them and how the love story developed?

I think people don’t want to change, that’s the real issue people have with following Christ’s teachings.

Which teachings of the Church are you afraid of?

 

[Quaestor]

It is important to understand Roman society, structure and culture. Among the non-patrician and non-military classes, the minor deities were generally of Italic origin while the major deities to whom the patrician classes has duty towards were Greek adaptations due to greek influence. In fact, many of the patricians were monolingual Greek speaking. Greek was the lingua franca of the Roman World not Latin.

 

[fredystairs]

This is why I believe Constantine (and whoever approved and practiced with withholding Baptism) was very wrong. Baptism is very important to believing in Christ and following His commandments. It should not be witheld. It is like witholding our sins!

As some background to the reason why baptism was delayed at this time, the following is a passage from James Hitchcock’s work History of the Catholic Church:

“The power of baptism to remit sins was so great that rigorists held that sins committed after baptism were possibly unforgivable, ant this motivated some people - Constantine but also future saints such Basil, Gregory Nazianzen, Ambrose, Augustine, and Chrysostom - to delay receiving it.”

I’m not making any judgment concerning the rightness or wrongness of this. I’m just saying that that was the understanding at the time.

 

[niceatheist]

Absolute HOGWASH, There were no standard pantheon of deities among the many tribes found on the peninsula! WHAT STANDARD PANTHEON? WHAT STANDARD PANTHEON? Show me the source material?? Where? Jupiter as not the Deus Pater of ANYTHING!!! WHERE WHERE WHERE??? PIE is a linguistic HYPOTHESIS! Not a religious one… non-PIE tribes and people had similar beliefs. Neither was Zeus the father god of the gods. STOP BEING SILLY! The Titans were the predecessors of the gods! Not Zeus/Jupiter you silly nitwit! Gaia, Uranus, Saturn were Titans the FATHERS OF THE GODS get it? Stop spewing cow pucky. PLEASE know the subject matter before you engage the comment. The Romans adopted every god they found as they were not only syncratic they were also henotheistic.

It’s called linguistic evidence. Seeing as many of the Indo-European peoples didn’t have written languages until very late, even some of the languages that retained some of the more primitive PIE features (like the Balto-Slavic languages). Believe it or not, you can actually use linguistic rules to determined with a reasonable level of accuracy at what point in a language or language family’s history specific words were adopted.

So the Italic peoples, being an Indo-European people, would have had their own version of the PIE pantheon, just as the Celtic peoples, the Greek peoples, Germanic peoples, the Baltic peoples, the Slavic peoples, the Indo-Aryan peoples, and even the Hittites, had versions of this pantheon (though some, like the Hittite pantheon, was more heavily influenced by Eastern tropes).

Further more, Vesta is not a deity who
happens to be deity borrowed from other cultures but is one of the bona fide deities, I believe she was alban or latin. So I am unsure as to where you are inventing a Eastern religious aspect. Perhaps you need some remedial lessons in Roman mythos? Or do you make it up as you go, you know like inventing cow pucky. Vestan cult was one of the oldest of the true Roman cults

Just because two cultures have similar duties or practices, jumping to the conclusion that one is borrowing from the other is an exercise for the lazy arm chair amateurist. Don’t do that… many like me quickly lose respect for persons like that.

These two cultures stem from a parent culture.