Constantly shouting at kids

[endaman]

My wife and I have three girls aged 4, 2 and 11 months. Recently putting them to bed in the evening has become a shouting match and its very difficult to get them to settle and just be good. It seems we are shouting at them way too much. Unfortunately they are all in day care until 5 pm monday to friday then home, dinner at 6 and bed for 7.30. So they are over tired by bed time its a long day which starts at 7 am/

Any suggestions for us any advise? Its almost creepy how frantic they can become before bed and then how they cry when we leave them to sleep.

Thanks.

 

[Xantippe]

My wife and I have three girls aged 4, 2 and 11 months. Recently putting them to bed in the evening has become a shouting match and its very difficult to get them to settle and just be good. It seems we are shouting at them way too much. Unfortunately they are all in day care until 5 pm monday to friday then home, dinner at 6 and bed for 7.30. So they are over tired by bed time its a long day which starts at 7 am/

Any suggestions for us any advise? Its almost creepy how frantic they can become before bed and then how they cry when we leave them to sleep.

Thanks.

Are they all sleeping in the same room? If so, is there some way to reconfigure your sleeping arrangements so they’re not all in the same room? (Even a large closet might do for a bedroom.)

Have you tried giving them a CD or MP3 player in their room? A long mix of lullabyes might be just the thing (make sure you have a back up copy). My 12-year-old has been using the same freebie CD for her bedtime for probably the last 9 or 10 years. Her 9-year-old brother also goes to bed with his favorite music–in the past, he’s found Gregorian chant and opera duets soothing.

Also, would a bath help as part of the routine?

Would a little bribery work for the big girls (or at least the biggest)? Take her for a visit to Barnes and Noble or Toys R Us and show her the most luscious sparkly My Little Ponies or whatever her heart desires. Then buy one and bring it home and keep it. Then tell the big girl that if she is able to go down quietly to bed for five nights (perhaps make her a chart for this), the amazing sparkly My Little Pony will be her very own. (You can pull out the amazing sparkly My Little Pony periodically for motivation purposes.) If she sets a good example and learns the habit of getting to sleep without fuss, it’s very likely that the 2-year-old will follow. You may need to pay the 2-year-old off too.

Yelling is really counterproductive, because you want them to feel safe about going to bed by themselves.

 

[EasterJoy]

That could be due to so many things. You have to make a living, it doesn’t give as much time with them as you would like, and it has a cost. To some extent, you may not have enough time for the peaceful home life that you’d like. Still, I would comfort you with the truth that these before-bed meltdowns are something that stay-at-home parents have to cope with, too.

Here are some things you might try:

1. Freezer or pre-prep dinners. You shop and cook on the weekend. (There are cookbooks and websites with menus and recipes). When you come home on a week night, you take the casserole out of the refrigerator or freezer and put it into the oven. Then you spend time with your wee ones until dinner is ready. When the kids are in bed, you do dishes and briefly prep the “fresh” stuff for tomorrow, like washing and drying the lettuce, and take out the casserole, if it needs to thaw before being baked the next night. (You do have to have some down time for yourselves!)
   The main thing is that you shift as many of the cooking chores as possible out of what even stay-at-home moms often call The Arsenic Hour. I was a stay-at-home mom, and I never worked with raw meat after about 3 pm, except with tongs. Otherwise, I’d always have some crisis to deal with when I had* E. coli *all over my fingers!
2. You look for ways to give specific attention to each parent-child relationship and to also give the kids some relief from being with each other. Maybe you have a schedule: This is “Mom” week. Monday is Sheila’s time with just Mom and Dad’s time with the other two, Tuesday is Mary’s night with Mom, Wednesday is everybody together night, and Thursday is Jake’s night with Mom. and Friday is date night for Mom and Dad, with some particular treat for the kids. Then next week is “Dad” week, where he gets time with just one child while Mom spends her time with the other two. This gives each child some “one on one” time and each parent a limit on who is vying for their attention.
   We have twins, and they love getting to spend time with just one parent. When you lower the “crowd size,” you often lower the number of opportunities for conflict. Less conflict, less yelling…it could work. Then when you have a “group thing,” it will seem more special.

 

[UbiCaritas]

Yes, I know it’s kind of trashy TV but…

have you ever watched “Supernanny?”

She has a stay-in-bed technique which I’ve used on kids I’ve babysat.

Short version:

The first time the kid gets up, take them back to their room, say, “It’s bedtime, honey,” and put them back in bed. Then walk out.

The second time, say “Bedtime,” put them back in bed, then walk out.

All subsequent times, don’t say anything, don’t respond, just put them back in bed, and walk out.

This can take a very long time the first few nights, but once they see that all they’re getting by staying up is getting walked back to bed with no interaction or response, they tend to stay in bed and go down easily after that.

Do you have a bedtime routine in place?

And as Xanthippe says–if they’re in the same room, is there a way to space them out, or at least remove the 11-month-old from the room?

 

[EasterJoy]

…Yelling is really counterproductive, because you want them to feel safe about going to bed by themselves.

Yelling escalates conflicts and gets kids ramped up. The lower you can keep your voice, the better. You may have to re-train them to expect the “consequence” before you have given them the shot over the bow of yelling, but they’ll catch on. “You need to cut that out. I’m not going to yell. Either you stop doing that or Little Pony is going to sleep in the top cupboard tonight.” When you start following through in a predictable way, then they will realize that your lowered voice is still your business voice.

I don’t mean that it is the volume that does it. It is the change in voice that you have to use to achieve the extra volume. Imagine you have a calm, controlled voice amplified to the volume of a yelling voice. It doesn’t sound like a yell, does it? No, it sounds like the Voice of Heaven–very authoritative.

–Her voice was ever soft,
Gentle and low, an excellent thing in woman–
King Lear

An excellent thing in a parent, too…

 

[Miserissima]

I caught myself doing this.

Staggering bedtimes may be a good idea.

I also realized how ‘my’ behavior was an expected pattern for the kits. Without raising my clubs, they missed something from their bedtime ritual.

Now, I just make them repeat back to me what I said…“What did Mommy say?” and praise until they do whatever it was I had said.

It’s not nearly as frustrating anymore, and they’re sleep a lot sooner without the angry sounding stimulus.

 

[Emme781]

Yes, I know it’s kind of trashy TV but…

have you ever watched “Supernanny?”

She has a stay-in-bed technique which I’ve used on kids I’ve babysat.

Short version:

The first time the kid gets up, take them back to their room, say, “It’s bedtime, honey,” and put them back in bed. Then walk out.

The second time, say “Bedtime,” put them back in bed, then walk out.

All subsequent times, don’t say anything, don’t respond, just put them back in bed, and walk out.

This can take a very long time the first few nights, but once they see that all they’re getting by staying up is getting walked back to bed with no interaction or response, they tend to stay in bed and go down easily after that.

Do you have a bedtime routine in place?

And as Xanthippe says–if they’re in the same room, is there a way to space them out, or at least remove the 11-month-old from the room?

The foundation of Supernanny’s techniques is consistency. Establish a bedtime routine: Bath, Book, Prayer, Hug/kiss = goodnight and stick to it. No more talking or negotiating, you actually are silent if you have to keep returning them to bed.

It will be harder on you than them and in the long run, good for everyone. Pray for the strength to persevere!

 

[underacloud]

If you find yourself yelling, you’ve already lost control of the situation.

You’re also teaching them bad habits that will come back to haunt you. At some stage, they will start yelling back…after all, that seems to them to be the appropriate way to communicate something that’s important.

As others have suggested, work on establishing a routine and find non-yelling ways to enforce it. Work on developing a voice that is not at all yelling, but is deeper in tone and conveys that you mean business. Like when you’re training a dog to sit. Think of the way a dog owner might command their dog to sit. They don’t yell, but they use a firm voice and a very different voice to when they are conveying affection.

Sorry to liken children to dogs, but in reality similar principles can be applied to teaching/training them.

 

[Allegra]

Is the issue that the kids don’t want to go to bed, or trying to get all the evening things done so they can go to bed in a timely manner? If it’s the second, having a routine and then letting the older girl take ownership of her part could go a long way. If your older girl is in a seperate room, you could try rewarding her for getting herself cleaned and ready for bed in a timely manner. (If you are in your PJs by the time the timer goes off, you can have 20 minutes of special play time with daddy in the livingroom while mommy gets the little girls ready for bed.) Shouting definately should stop though.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Um, the first thing that jumped right out at me in reading the OP’s post was:

When, in a 24-hour day, do these girls ever get a little free time not at a school or daycare or with their folks to just be themselves? To me it sounds as if that’s what they’re crying out for - time to chill and discover the world around them, pursue play and interests, etc.

 

[EasterJoy]

Um, the first thing that jumped right out at me in reading the OP’s post was:

When, in a 24-hour day, do these girls ever get a little free time not at a school or daycare or with their folks to just be themselves? To me it sounds as if that’s what they’re crying out for - time to chill and discover the world around them, pursue play and interests, etc.

First off, children are allowed to play while in day care.
Second, most parents who have their children in day care would like it if one of them didn’t have to work for a wage, but it can’t be helped.
Third, children who stay at home more are still very likely to go through the Arsenic Hour after 5 or 6 pm, no matter where they were that day, what they did, or who took care of them. That is the reality of the circadian rhythm of lots of children in that age group.

But yes, if the parents can minimize the other work they have to do when they get home from their salaried work in order to have family “chill” time, so much the better.

 

[CradleJourney]

My wife and I have three girls aged 4, 2 and 11 months. Recently putting them to bed in the evening has become a shouting match and its very difficult to get them to settle and just be good. It seems we are shouting at them way too much. Unfortunately they are all in day care until 5 pm monday to friday then home, dinner at 6 and bed for 7.30. So they are over tired by bed time its a long day which starts at 7 am/

Any suggestions for us any advise? Its almost creepy how frantic they can become before bed and then how they cry when we leave them to sleep.

Thanks.

I don’t think I ever was successful in getting a child past early infancy to bed before 9pm Is it really overtired? Or not quite tired enough? Do they get naps in daycare? Here naps are mandatory and a 4 yr old often is outgrowing the need for them. (Not every child by any means, just observing).

My suggestions are since you have so little time - make an early high-energy time (maybe a 5:30 parent/kid dance party or a romp in a nearby park on the way home). Followed by food, followed by ritual (bath, brush teeth, pajamas, etc.) followed by quiet time (bedtime story, lullaby, oldest maybe gets to ‘read’ a couple books on her own if she stays in bed).

My guess is your main problem is that with three, you are now outnumbered - and are perhaps turning to shouting to overcome either the lack of an additional set of hands or out of your own tiredness (been there, done that, got the t-shirt!).

You can try managing that a bit by always having one of the older ones “help” with a younger one. For example the 4yr old could hand you soap, towels, etc. while you bathe the baby. This gives you a chance to be hands on with both, while getting something done and makes the 4yr old feel important. She can even “help” get the baby down to sleep (handing her a teddy, etc.) with your support of course. Then she gets her turn with you giving her all your attention as you get her down to bed. In the meantime, whichever girl is not “helping” can be cared for and loved by the other parent (and this can be switched around so everyone gets to spend “extra” time with mom and dad).

Good luck!

 

[3DOCTORS]

First off, children are allowed to play while in day care.

I understand that, but playing in that setting is still qualitiatively different than playing at home, with and without one’s siblings. Granted, these kids are young (I initially misread the 11 months as 11 years so I was picturing an older schoolgirl having to go to bed when the little ones did - my mistake there. )
EasterJoy;12392142:

Second, most parents who have their children in day care would like it if one of them didn’t have to work for a wage, but it can’t be helped.

But yes, if the parents can minimize the other work they have to do when they get home from their salaried work in order to have family “chill” time, so much the better.

It just seems as if at least the older two could be allowed to stay up just a bit later to allow for that playtime that I described, that’s all. Even dinnertime, though it’s family time, is a time of expectations. I think they need some time where if they can have downtime and as long as they don’t try to burn the house down or something, there are minimal rules or agendas to be followed.

 

[Xantippe]

Fiddling with the bedtime might be a good idea. Depending on when the daycare nap is (and I agree that the 4-year-old may have outgrown it), the kids may need an earlier or later bedtime. With my middle child, when he gave up his nap, his bedtime needed to be at 6:30 (!!!). Craziness. Likewise, if the baby has a long, late nap, she may need a later bedtime. Tricky!

If you do the fiddling in 15 minute increments, it won’t do any harm.

 

[endaman]

Thanks for these great replies, there is a lot here that I can use to help the situation.

Yes, they are all in the same room. Upstairs we only have two bedrooms, then two downstairs, one of which is a playroom and the other for guests (granny needs room). So then all three are in the same room beside us upstairs. Not ideal but we kind of have to work with it for now.

The two youngest get naps in day care so they probably are not sleepy enough when we put them down, that is the general feedback we get when we are all shouting and screaming before bed.

There is no doubt the shouting needs to stop. When we only had one or even two it was so easy and the routine worked but now with my wife working and them at day care its changed.

I will look more at your suggestions and try some out

Thanks again, God Bless, your replies are prayers answered.

 

[marymary1975]

I think you have gotten some great advice here. I am justgoing to share another ttechnique instead is shouting, as shouting do not work. I used to shout a lot but another mom gave me this technique and it works. Instead of shouting of yelling.: first of all calm down, kneel one knee so you can have direct eye contact to the kid and put your arm on the kids shoulder, in that position you are going to talk lowering the tone of you voice as much as you can lower it(dads this is bingo for you, use yyour lowest tone of voice), and usimgbtour lowest tone of voice start talking very very slowly… It is…time…to go…to sleep…noooow.

Try that. The science behind this is that lower time of voices hit the intellectual part of the brain. On the other hand high pitches hit the emotional side of the brain and because of this the brain does not really absorb the content of the words you say, instead due to the high pitchreacts eemotionally. When you yell the high pitching will cause your kid to act emotionally hence the chaos.

If you eliminate that high pitch and lower your tone of voice and then pronounce the words slowly that will go right through to the intellectual side of the kid’s brain and the kid will assimilate the command in a much better way.

It helped me a lot so I would recommend you to try it (besides is way more scarier hahah)

 

[Cat]

I agree with many of the suggestions on this thread so far.

I’m so sorry that you both have to work. I know you already know this, but just in case–this type of schedule is tough for grown-ups. It’s even tougher on kids. Highly stressful. Always keep that in mind. These kids are not acting this way out of willful defiance or a devilish tendency to disobey or sin. They are acting this way because they are stressed, tired, lonely, insecure, etc. I’m so sorry. I know you already know all this, and there’s probably nothing you can do to change your employment situation, and that probably makes you even more stressed out than your kids. Again, it’s not a good situation for parents or kids.

I highly suggest that you get hold of Dr. David Elkind’s classic book, The Hurried Child. Now I’m not a tree-hugger, and I’m not into attachment parenting or no-cry solutions or any of the practices that make working parents feel inadequate. But I think this book says a lot of good things about childrearing.

Finally, one more suggestion. Make sure that you don’t stay awake for much longer once you’ve put your children down for the night. Oh, I know, it’s so tempting to stay awake for several hours and get stuff done, do chores or projects, watch movies or TV, converse with each other with no interruptions, make love, relax, work out, etc. Don’t do it. Go to bed shortly after your kids are in bed. That will help your kids to see that it really IS night-night sleepy time, and they’re not missing out on all the fun with Mom and Dad! With a good night’s sleep under your belt, you will feel much better physically and mentally during your very busy days and possibly have more patience to deal with your children without yelling at them.

It WILL get better! My daughters always had to go to bed early because they were figure skaters (yes, starting at ages 3 and 5), and they had to be up with the birds to be at the rink at 6:00 a.m. When my younger daughter was an older teenager, she once told us, “What was I thinking when I was a little kid and didn’t want to go to bed?! Now when it’s nine-o-clock at night, I’m so happy because I know that it’s time for bed and I finally get to go to sleep!”

 

[underacloud]

Finally, one more suggestion. Make sure that you don’t stay awake for much longer once you’ve put your children down for the night. Oh, I know, it’s so tempting to stay awake for several hours and get stuff done, do chores or projects, watch movies or TV, converse with each other with no interruptions, make love, relax, work out, etc. Don’t do it. Go to bed shortly after your kids are in bed. That will help your kids to see that it really IS night-night sleepy time, and they’re not missing out on all the fun with Mom and Dad! With a good night’s sleep under your belt, you will feel much better physically and mentally during your very busy days and possibly have more patience to deal with your children without yelling at them.

You’ve lost me here.

Kids need a lot more sleep than adults. So for young children it is sensible to go to bed at say 7:30pm (the time the OP mentioned).

This is for most adults a very unrealistic time to go to bed. If a typical adult needs 8 hours (some more, some less), and the OP’s family gets up at 7am, the adults don’t need to get to bed until around 11pm. In the meantime, there’s lots of things an adult may wish to do with some time to themseves, including but not limited to - relaxing, cleaning, reading, watching TV, praying, spending quality time with spouse, etc.

Kids are quite capable of understanding that they have a bed time and mum and dad have a different bedtime. I have four children and this has never been a difficult thing for them to understand.

 

[Allegra]

You’ve lost me here.

Kids need a lot more sleep than adults. So for young children it is sensible to go to bed at say 7:30pm (the time the OP mentioned).

This is for most adults a very unrealistic time to go to bed. If a typical adult needs 8 hours (some more, some less), and the OP’s family gets up at 7am, the adults don’t need to get to bed until around 11pm. In the meantime, there’s lots of things an adult may wish to do with some time to themseves, including but not limited to - relaxing, cleaning, reading, watching TV, praying, spending quality time with spouse, etc.

Kids are quite capable of understanding that they have a bed time and mum and dad have a different bedtime. I have four children and this has never been a difficult thing for them to understand.

I agree. Furthermore, the parents have more of an ability to better use the time they do have to interact with the kids if they get the house cleaning done while the kids are asleep. Kids also benefit from their parents having time to invest in their own relationship. Overall, it’s a silly suggestion for grown people to go to sleep at 8PM so the kids don’t feel cheated.

 

[Cat]

If the day starts at 7:00 a.m. for the children, then the adults are very likely getting up at 5:30 a.m. to fit in showers, coffee, the morning news or paper or internet, prepping breakfast, laying out clothing, etc. I don’t know of too many parents of young children who sleep until their children wake up. If you do, good for you. But I always wanted to have a little time in the morning to myself before my girls got up.

So that means going to bed earlier to get at least 7 hours of sleep, and more sleep would be better. If the couple plans to make love before going to sleep, that will take some time (and it’s a good idea for a couple to be making love at least once in a while, even when they have three small children).

I’m guessing that when the parents say that the day starts at 7:00 a.m. for the children, it means that the children actually are awake much earlier, and they are out of the house by 7:00 a.m. and on their way to day care. I could be wrong about this, but I start work at 6:30 a.m. and the others who have children in daycare arrive at 6:00 a.m. to get them into their “classrooms.”

Seriously, folks, never underestimate the value of a really good night’s sleep on a regular basis. And many people are living sleep-deprived on their “7 hours” a night. That’s not much when you’re raising small ones.