Consubstantiation/Lutherans

[manualman]

First you must present your Polish identity credentials!

Or look it up with those meddling Wikipedia guys… I’m fourth generation, so you don’t want the explanation from me. My cred is too sloppy!

 

[JonNC]

The Latin and Greek provide a different reference for the demonstrative “this”. I don’t know if he did or not, but if Luther had changed the formula to “Haec est enim corpus meum” instead of “Hoc est enim corpus meum,” then the demonstrative “this” would have clearly referred to “panem” or “bread.” In the English, and perhaps the German too, the distinction is lost and we’ll argue forever because of the ambiguity of “this.” IMO consubstantiation is easier to believe as we physically envision the bread as the body and it intuitively makes more sense that way. It is difficult to see the bread only as an accident at that point, I’ll admit, but that’s what Catholics are supposed to believe. The Latin “hoc est…” and not “haec est…” is still the authoritative.

Isn’t this the exegesis that Carlstadt used to say that when Christ said, “This is my body”, the this He was pointing to was His body, which was only spiritually there?
I’m not saying this is your intention, far from it, but I looked into this point a bit (a small bit) since you brought it up to me before.

I fear you are right about consubstantiation, in that it is easier to believe than either Transub. or sacramental union, in that our experience is our senses detect bread and wine, while our faith says it is body and blood, so…

Jon

 

[MaryT777]

First you must present your Polish identity credentials!

Or look it up with those meddling Wikipedia guys… I’m fourth generation, so you don’t want the explanation from me. My cred is too sloppy!

I sadly have no Polish Identity Credentials…so therefore Wiki here I come

 

[ProVobis]

Maybe the wink means your kidding, but as a certified -ski myself, I can tell you that Polish people don’t confuse oplatki for the Eucharist. Even if the accidents are rather similar!

I’m well aware of that. Our Christmases wouldn’t be without the opłatki (pronounced ohp-WAT-kee, by the way). (Does that smiley work better? )

 

[ProVobis]

Isn’t this the exegesis that Carlstadt used to say that when Christ said, “This is my body”, the this He was pointing to was His body, which was only spiritually there?

IMO, this would be a good way to do it in English. Good research.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

There is a way some Lutherans commune by receiving the Holy Blood individually. Each shot glass has to be washed; there is no way the blessed Sacrament can not be lost in a dish washer!

These are Lutherans who do not practice what they preach!

 

[hn160]

There is a way some Lutherans commune by receiving the Holy Blood individually. Each shot glass has to be washed; there is no way the blessed Sacrament can not be lost in a dish washer!

These are Lutherans who do not practice what they preach!

My church uses both the common cup and individual glasses, the practice is that the used glasses are rinsed in a basin of water and the water is taken outside and poured onto the ground. As of now, we are a 50-50 congregation, the pastors are slowing nudging everyone to the common cup

 

[EvangelCatholic]

My church uses both the common cup and individual glasses, the practice is that the used glasses are rinsed in a basin of water and the water is taken outside and poured onto the ground. As of now, we are a 50-50 congregation, the pastors are slowing nudging everyone to the common cup

Individual glasses is an American phenomena that I believe Lutherans copied from Protestants who do no believe in the Real Presence. Sanitary and health concerns can be easily accommodated by intinction.

 

[JonNC]

Individual glasses is an American phenomena that I believe Lutherans copied from Protestants who do no believe in the Real Presence. Sanitary and health concerns can be easily accommodated by intinction.

Indeed. And fears of health risks from the common cup have little support from history.

Jon

 

[gcnuss]

As usual, I’m one of the last to join in these discussions. And, as usual, Jon has already taken care of providing a solid Lutheran response to the issue.

As I look at this oft-discussed subject, I hear the same explanations and the same counterarguments that we have heard over and over again. I wonder if we gain anything by repeating ourselves. Certainly, it is evident that Lutherans do not come to a Catholic understanding of the Sacrament nor do Catholics come to a Lutheran understanding.

It seems to me that the transubstantiation/consubstantiation/sacramental union question is one which we are not destined to have an answer to in this life. I wonder how our Lord whose pronouncements – “this is my body” and “this cup is the new covenant in my blood” – are foundational to our sacramental theology sees our disagreements over “how” he is present in the Sacrament overshadowing the celebration of the miracle of his presence.

For me, I am satisfied to believe our Lord’s statement that the bread and wine are his body and blood. It matters little how this miracle comes to be but it is all-important that it is truly so.

 

[Peter_J]

Indeed. And fears of health risks from the common cup have little support from history.

Jon

Really? Because I’ve heard that was the original reason for distributing only the host.

 

[aemcpa]

Really? Because I’ve heard that was the original reason for distributing only the host.

I was always taught that distributing only the host originated as a practical measure relating to the increased danger of profanation that comes with many hands handling the Chalice.

 

[manualman]

Really? Because I’ve heard that was the original reason for distributing only the host.

Actually the primary driver of that was a heresy that went around for a time that said that the host was the body only and the cup contained the blood only so that you HAD to receive both forms in order to have received body and blood.

Since there was also concern about the amount of spillage, the decision was made to go to just the host in order to prevent spillage and firmly send a message about the host containing BOTH body AND blood.

 

[steido01]

As I look at this oft-discussed subject, I hear the same explanations and the same counterarguments that we have heard over and over again. I wonder if we gain anything by repeating ourselves. Certainly, it is evident that Lutherans do not come to a Catholic understanding of the Sacrament nor do Catholics come to a Lutheran understanding.

It seems to me that the transubstantiation/consubstantiation/sacramental union question is one which we are not destined to have an answer to in this life. ** I wonder how our Lord whose pronouncements – “this is my body” and “this cup is the new covenant in my blood” – are foundational to our sacramental theology sees our disagreements over “how” he is present in the Sacrament overshadowing the celebration of the miracle of his presence.**

:sad_yes:

As always, Pastor, you share thoughts for real contemplation.

 

[pablope]

As usual, I’m one of the last to join in these discussions. And, as usual, Jon has already taken care of providing a solid Lutheran response to the issue.

As I look at this oft-discussed subject, I hear the same explanations and the same counterarguments that we have heard over and over again. I wonder if we gain anything by repeating ourselves. Certainly, it is evident that Lutherans do not come to a Catholic understanding of the Sacrament nor do Catholics come to a Lutheran understanding.

It seems to me that the transubstantiation/consubstantiation/sacramental union question is one which we are not destined to have an answer to in this life. I wonder how our Lord whose pronouncements – “this is my body” and “this cup is the new covenant in my blood” – are foundational to our sacramental theology sees our disagreements over “how” he is present in the Sacrament overshadowing the celebration of the miracle of his presence.

For me, I am satisfied to believe our Lord’s statement that the bread and wine are his body and blood. It matters little how this miracle comes to be but it is all-important that it is truly so.

Thanks for your posts…but isn’t the disbelief in the RP started after the Reformation…and all this discussion/debate was borne of the Reformation?

 

[steido01]

Thanks for your posts…but isn’t the disbelief in the RP started after the Reformation…and all this discussion/debate was borne of the Reformation?

Flatly, no. Individuals and sects had denied the Real Presence long before the Reformation. Sorry, but you certainly can’t pin that on the Reformation of the 1500’s.

Not to defend the man, but we can’t even pin the origin of that error on Calvin, for that matter.

 

[Peter_J]

Actually the primary driver of that was a heresy that went around for a time that said that the host was the body only and the cup contained the blood only so that you HAD to receive both forms in order to have received body and blood.

That is, in fact, what I initially thought. (I think Fr Benedict Groschelle was the first person I heard say that it started b/c of health concerns.)

Since there was also concern about the amount of spillage, the decision was made to go to just the host in order to prevent spillage and firmly send a message about the host containing BOTH body AND blood.

 

[pablope]

Flatly, no. Individuals and sects had denied the Real Presence long before the Reformation.

 

[JonNC]

As usual, I’m one of the last to join in these discussions. And, as usual, Jon has already taken care of providing a solid Lutheran response to the issue.

As I look at this oft-discussed subject, I hear the same explanations and the same counterarguments that we have heard over and over again. I wonder if we gain anything by repeating ourselves. Certainly, it is evident that Lutherans do not come to a Catholic understanding of the Sacrament nor do Catholics come to a Lutheran understanding.

It seems to me that the transubstantiation/consubstantiation/sacramental union question is one which we are not destined to have an answer to in this life. I wonder how our Lord whose pronouncements – “this is my body” and “this cup is the new covenant in my blood” – are foundational to our sacramental theology sees our disagreements over “how” he is present in the Sacrament overshadowing the celebration of the miracle of his presence.

For me, I am satisfied to believe our Lord’s statement that the bread and wine are his body and blood. It matters little how this miracle comes to be but it is all-important that it is truly so.

Thank you for your kind words, Pastor.

And I agree with your comments here.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Really? Because I’ve heard that was the original reason for distributing only the host.

I think that has happened recently, but historically, I don’t believe there has ever been a link between the chalice and wide-spread health problems, though I may be wrong.

Jon