Consubstantiation/Lutherans

[ufamtobie]

I appreciate your zeal, Ufam Tobie. I really do. I do hope and pray that all Christians may again be one visible body upon Earth one day. Whether that happens on this side of the Eschaton or not, I cannot say. Nevertheless, we can pray for an increase of love towards one another.

Thatoneguy,

In order for Non-catholic Christians to be one body they have to leave their pride and come HOME to the only Church Christ established, plain and simple as ABC 123

One must increase their love towards the only Church Christ founded.

It is up to you, if it happens on this side of the “Eschaton”

Ufam Tobie

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Thatoneguy,

In order for Non-catholic Christians to be one body they have to leave their pride and come HOME to the only Church Christ established, plain and simple as ABC 123

One must increase their love towards the only Church Christ founded.

It is up to you, if it happens on this side of the “Eschaton”

Ufam Tobie

Ufan Tobie

How do you explain the consensus of Catholic & Lutheran understanding of the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist? You may find this recent document issued by both the Roman Catholic and Lutheran churches on our commonality of faith to be quite revealing.

lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/From%20Conflict%20to%20Communion.pdf
153. The question of the reality of the presence of Jesus Christ in the Lord’s
Supper is not a matter of controversy between Catholics and Lutherans.
The Lutheran–Roman Catholic dialogue on the eucharist was able to
state: »The Lutheran tradition affirms the Catholic tradition that the
consecrated elements do not simply remain bread and wine but rather
by the power of the creative word are given as the body and blood of
Christ. In this sense Lutherans also could occasionally speak, as does
the Greek tradition, of a change« (Eucharist 51).50 Both Catholics and
Lutherans »have in common a rejection of a spatial or natural manner
of presence, and a rejection of an understanding of the sacrament as
only commemorative or figurative« (Eucharist 16).51

 

[Peter_J]

Thatoneguy,

In order for Non-catholic Christians to be one body they have to leave their pride and come HOME to the only Church Christ established, plain and simple as ABC 123

One must increase their love towards the only Church Christ founded.

It is up to you, if it happens on this side of the “Eschaton”

Ufam Tobie

I take it you have never studied Eastern Orthodoxy, or the history of the relations between them and us Catholics?

 

[JonNC]

I take it you have never studied Eastern Orthodoxy, or the history of the relations between them and us Catholics?

I don’t think Ufam has studied much the ecumenical relations between Lutherans and Catholics over the last 60 years, either.

prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/e_l-rc_eucharist.html

Catholic and Lutheran Christians together confess the real and true presence of the Lord in the Eucharist. There are differences, however, in theological statements on the mode and therefore duration of the real presence.

In order to confess the reality of the eucharistic presence without reserve the Catholic Church teaches that "Christ whole and entire"34 becomes present through the transformation of the whole substance of the bread and the wine into the substance of the body and blood of Christ while the empirically accessible appearances of bread and wine (accidentia) continue to exist unchanged. This “wonderful and singular change” is “most aptly” called transsubstantiation by the Catholic Church.35 This terminology has widely been considered by Lutherans as an attempt rationalistically to explain the mystery of Christ’s presence in the sacrament; further, many suppose also that in this approach the present Lord is not seen as a person and naturalistic misunderstandings become easy.

The Lutherans have given expression to the reality of the Eucharistic presence by speaking of presence of Christ’s body and blood in, with and under bread and wine�but not of transsubstantiation. Here they see real analogy to the Lord’s incarnation: as God and man become one in Jesus Christ, Christ’s body and blood, on the one hand, and the bread and wine, on the other, give rise to a sacramental unity. Catholics, in turn, find that this does not do sufficient justice to this very unity and to the force of Christ’s word “This is my body”.

The ecumenical discussion has shown that these two positions must no longer be regarded as opposed in a way that leads to separation. The Lutheran tradition agrees with the Catholic tradition that the consecrated elements do not simply remain bread and wine but by the power of the creative Word are bestowed as the body and blood of Christ. In this sense it also could occasionally speak, as does the Greek tradition of a “change”.36 The concept of transsubstantiation for its part is intended as a confession and preservation of the mystery character of the Eucharistic presence; it is not intended as an explanation of how this change occurs37 (see the appendices on “Real Presence” and “Christ’s Presence in the Eucharist”).

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I don’t think Ufam has studied much the ecumenical relations between Lutherans and Catholics over the last 60 years, either.

prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/e_l-rc_eucharist.html

Jon

It is fair to discuss the differences, minute as they may be, between Lutheran and Catholic expressions of the Holy Mass, as if we were still in the 16th century. But it is not fair to cling to distortions & caricatures that are irrelevant and do not represent the sanctioned positions of Roman Catholics and Lutherans.

The Real Presence is vital to the Catholic faith of which Lutherans and Orthodox have consistently upheld with the Church of Rome. We should always celebrate this fellowship and strive to reunite the holy Church.

 

[JonNC]

It is fair to discuss the differences, minute as they may be, between Lutheran and Catholic expressions of the Holy Mass, as if we were still in the 16th century. But it is not fair to cling to distortions & caricatures that are irrelevant and do not represent the sanctioned positions of Roman Catholics and Lutherans.

The Real Presence is vital to the Catholic faith of which Lutherans and Orthodox have consistently upheld with the Church of Rome. We should always celebrate this fellowship and strive to reunite the holy Church.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Jon

We should always celebrate this fellowship and strive to reunite the holy Church.

Can you give a for intercommunion between Lutherans and Catholics? Now?

 

[JonNC]

Can you give a for intercommunion between Lutherans and Catholics? Now?

I can give a for the goal of it. Sadly, it is not possible now, because of our division. Pope Benedict made this point when he visited the Lutheran Church in Rome in 2010, saying, “… we must not content ourselves with the successes of ecumenism over recent years, because we still cannot drink from the same chalice or gather together around the same altar.”

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I can give a for the goal of it. Sadly, it is not possible now, because of our division. Pope Benedict made this point when he visited the Lutheran Church in Rome in 2010, saying, "… we must not content ourselves with the successes of ecumenism over recent years, because we still cannot drink from the same chalice or gather together around the same altar."

Jon

The point that Lutherans are making is that there is no difference between how we and Catholics believe in the most important aspect of the Eucharist, the Real Presence. We should rejoice and share that Eucharistic union/ hospitality. This is what Lutherans are suggesting to Pope Francis for the 2017 commemoration of the Reformation.

 

[JonNC]

The point that Lutherans are making is that there is no difference between how we and Catholics believe in the most important aspect of the Eucharist, the Real Presence. We should rejoice and share that Eucharistic union/ hospitality. This is what Lutherans are suggesting to Pope Francis for the 2017 commemoration of the Reformation.

I understand that, but there are a number of other issues involved in this, not the least of which being their view of the validity of our orders(not even discussing women’s ordination), and therefore the validity of our sacrament. We don’t hold that view of theirs, but they hold it of ours, and I will be amazed (and thankful) if Pope Francis allows for Eucharistic hospitality just on that point alone. There are a number of others. The Catholic Church teaches that it is a sin for a Catholic to participate/receive in a Lutheran Eucharist. It may change by 2017, but I doubt it.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I understand that, but there are a number of other issues involved in this, not the least of which being their view of the validity of our orders(not even discussing women’s ordination), and therefore the validity of our sacrament. We don’t hold that view of theirs, but they hold it of ours, and I will be amazed (and thankful) if Pope Francis allows for Eucharistic hospitality just on that point alone. There are a number of others. The Catholic Church teaches that it is a sin for a Catholic to participate/receive in a Lutheran Eucharist. It may change by 2017, but I doubt it.

Jon

If Catholics are sinning by taking holy Communion than its no wonder Catholics ignore important matters like abortion. Catholics regularly participate in the Lutheran Mass [like the organist at my parish]…

 

[JonNC]

If Catholics are sinning by taking holy Communion than its no wonder Catholics ignore important matters like abortion. Catholics regularly participate in the Lutheran Mass [like the organist at my parish]…

The Catholic Catechism says:

1400: Ecclesial communities derived from the Reformation and separated from the Catholic Church, "have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Holy Orders."239 It is for this reason that, for the Catholic Church, Eucharistic intercommunion with these communities is not possible.

Participation without reception, from what I understand, is permitted, but Catholics are not supposed to receive our Eucharist - their rules (well, and ours too, in the LCMS).

Jon

 

[ufamtobie]

I don’t think Ufam has studied much the ecumenical relations between Lutherans and Catholics over the last 60 years, either.

prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/e_l-rc_eucharist.html

Jon

JonNC, you have not studied from your heart that Jesus Christ established One Church, but I don’t blame you, you have not been given the Grace to understand this truth (yet) I blame Martin Luther, who brought the chaos with his division away from the Catholic Church.

I see no big change, have you? This is the big change I want to see, Until all non-Catholic come Home on their own two feet, then, I will see the big Change, that what I be willing to read and that what I been praying for.

Ufam Tobie

 

[JonNC]

JonNC, you have not studied from your heart that Jesus Christ established One Church, but I don’t blame you, you have not been given the Grace to understand this truth (yet) I blame Martin Luther, who brought the chaos with his division away from the Catholic Church.

Ufam,
I confess that every week.

I see no big change, have you? This is the big change I want to see, Until all non-Catholic come Home on their own two feet, then, I will see the big Change, that what I be willing to read and that what I been praying for.

Actually, there has been dramatic changes, even recently.

Jon