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ufamtobie
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Benjohnson,
You did not answer my question, here it is again:
Benjohnson, Do you believe that Jesus is the Bread or Jesus “is” in the earthly bread?
Ufam Tobie
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You did not answer my question, here it is again:
Benjohnson, Do you believe that Jesus is the Bread or Jesus “is” in the earthly bread?
Ufam Tobie
To be clear, as that original conversation fades into background, I responded to your question regarding the two. As a Lutheran, the metaphysical construct of Transubstantiation/Consubstantiation is still not my preferred way to speak of it. My preferred way is, “This is my body”, etc.Steido,
You can’t accuse me of being a "Mary-worshiper no more than you can accuse St. Gabriel, for saying “Hail Mary, Full of Grace,” St. Joseph Her Spouse for taking care of the Holy Family, or Elizabeth for saying “who am I that the Mother of the Lord should come to me” Nor St. John the baptist, for leaping for Joy in Elizabeths womb when he heard Mary’s voice, as well as St. John for taking Virgin Mary into his home, for she had no where to go, nor the Holy Spirit for the inspiration of them to say what they said, do what they did, re: Virgin Mary.
Our Lord said Woman behold thy son, John behold thy Mother, That’s is what we Catholics do, we behold Mary as our Mother, worship Her, no we don’t.
I am just pointing out the facts of what EvangleCatholic said re: Martin Luther’s teaching “Luther taught** us** that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine.”
Luther teaching here is wrong! Jesus Christ is not in the bread, He is the 100% the Bread, the Bread of life, when consecrated by a Priest.
Evangel Catholic has a beautiful picture of a Lutheran Priest raising up the Lutheran Eucharist, but then again, if you believe in what Martin Luther taught, then the Lutheran priest is also lifting up, the earthly bread that you lutherans say Jesus Christ is in
The definition of “Coexist” = exist at the same time or in the same place.
Therefore the Body of Christ can not, I repeat cannot “Coexist” at the same time with earthly bread, when consecrated, Well, then again, it is in the Lutheran church per the teaching of Martin Luther. As for the Catholic Church the earthly bread is no more, but now the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, when consecrated. Amen
Stiedo, Jesus Christ said: I am the Bread of Life. Jesus Christ did not say: I am in that piece of the bread that gives life.?
I believe what you say that you worship the Body of Christ in that piece of earthy bread. During your Lutheran adoration which piece is Jesus and which piece is the earthly bread how do you differentiate the two breads
I ask you the same question that I asked both JonNC, & EvangelCatholic and that is: which do you lean towards to Consubstantiation or Transubstantiation?
JonNC, already answered and said Transubstantiation.
Ufam Tobie
Jon
Ufam,
Its a metaphysical question. Be that as it may, Jesus doesn’t say, “I am this bread”, nor does He say, “Take and eat, I am in this bread”. So, Lutherans would not believe either in the metaphysical way you have presented it.
We believe what He said, “Take and east. This is my body.” We would also agree with John of Damascus, “…* if you enquire how this happens, it is enough for you to learn that it was through the Holy Spirit, just as the Lord took on Himself flesh that subsisted in Him and was born of the holy Mother of God through the Spirit”*.
Jon
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benjohnson
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I didn’t answer your question in the way you prefer because neither option is what Jesus told us.
I know what I’d like to say, as it between the two choices it’s obvious what is better, but there is no need for me to ponder the dichotomy you have given me when Jesus gives us His words of comforting Gospel.
John 6:51: “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
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pablope
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Well…Ben…but as per Luther’s analogy and explanation…it is not a mystery…“Luther illustrated it by the analogy of the iron put into the fire whereby both fire and iron are united in the red-hot iron and yet each continues unchanged” (The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, F.L. Cross, Ed., London: Oxford, 1958, p. 337).
Everyone knows pretty much what happens when one puts iron in a fire…so how does this makes it a continuous mystery?
And as per Luther’s explanation…it is like consub in its basic construct…and so following his analogy…fire and iron become united…is he saying then…the actual body and blood somehow gets united with the bread and wine…
Well…maybe not formally…but you are binding yourself informally to Luther’s teaching…so yes…you are binding yourself to something.
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hn160
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Just what part of Christ’s word “is”, you don’t understand? From what I seen on this thread you do not understand that when Christ said “This Is My” , this is what it actually is. We do not have to use Aristotle metaphysics like the Catholics to try to explain what happens in communion.
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ufamtobie
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JonNC you already answered that you are leaning towards Transubstantiation, Good for you
Ufam Tobie
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ufamtobie
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hn160,
Evanglecatholic, Said: “Luther taught us that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine.”
hn160, So now I ask you the same question I asked Evanglecatholic, He has not answered as yet and BenJohnson, who goes around the question, and perhaps you will to.
The Question is, did Jesus Christ say: I am the Bread of Life! Or I am in that piece of bread of Life?
“In that piece of bread” hits me the wrong way, because Jesus Christ never said as Martin Luther taught. Jesus Christ said: I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE
What part of I Am the Bread of Life, didn’t You and Martin Luther, get?
Ufam Tobie
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Peter_J
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To be fair, this was the first time I’ve ever heard a Catholic accuse a Lutheran of worshipping bread – and that’s really saying something, since I’ve heard a *lot *in my day.
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steido01
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Martin Luther said, “Ist, ist, ist!” Luther certainly believed Christ’s infinitely more important words, “This IS my body.”
We Lutherans believe that the bread** IS** his body. We can’t explain how using words like “Transubstantiation,” because Christ did not tell us that is how the transformation happens. This is why Lutherans use the term “Sacramental Union” - it could just as well be “Sacramental Mystery.” In our understanding, the Eucharist is a miracle, plain and simple - what fruit comes of trying to explain a miracle?
Transubstantiation could very well be how it happens; we don’t know (but if that explanation helps some feeble human minds to understand just how great of a gift the Eucharist is, bully for them). What we do know is that the bread IS His body and that the wine IS His blood.
We Lutherans believe that the bread** IS** his body. We can’t explain how using words like “Transubstantiation,” because Christ did not tell us that is how the transformation happens. This is why Lutherans use the term “Sacramental Union” - it could just as well be “Sacramental Mystery.” In our understanding, the Eucharist is a miracle, plain and simple - what fruit comes of trying to explain a miracle?
Transubstantiation could very well be how it happens; we don’t know (but if that explanation helps some feeble human minds to understand just how great of a gift the Eucharist is, bully for them). What we do know is that the bread IS His body and that the wine IS His blood.
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hn160
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Personally I do not have any problem if the Lutheran Church would one day say that we believe in Transubstantiation as that they say in German: es macht keinen Unterschiedhn160,
Evanglecatholic, Said: “Luther taught us that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine.”
hn160, So now I ask you the same question I asked Evanglecatholic, He has not answered as yet and BenJohnson, who goes around the question, and perhaps you will to.
The Question is, did Jesus Christ say: I am the Bread of Life! Or I am in that piece of bread of Life?
“In that piece of bread” hits me the wrong way, because Jesus Christ never said as Martin Luther taught. Jesus Christ said: I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE
What part of I Am the Bread of Life, didn’t You and Martin Luther, get?
Ufam Tobie
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Novocastrian
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Amen. Luther, in that regard, is far clearer than Cranmer or Calvin. Zwingli is pretty clear too, but he’s clearly unorthodox!Martin Luther said, “Ist, ist, ist!” Luther certainly believed Christ’s infinitely more important words, “This IS my body.”
We Lutherans believe that the bread** IS** his body. We can’t explain how using words like “Transubstantiation,” because Christ did not tell us that is how the transformation happens. This is why Lutherans use the term “Sacramental Union” - it could just as well be “Sacramental Mystery.” In our understanding, the Eucharist is a miracle, plain and simple - what fruit comes of trying to explain a miracle?
Transubstantiation could very well be how it happens; we don’t know (but if that explanation helps some feeble human minds to understand just how great of a gift the Eucharist is, bully for them). What we do know is that the bread IS His body and that the wine IS His blood.
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benjohnson
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I’d be ok if Transubstantiation is used to describe what truly exists and not how it’s changed.
Frankly, that seems how Catholic mean it, but we do used to hearing the “Dogma of Transubstantiation” as a replacement for Christ’s words.
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EvangelCatholic
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I agree with my fellow Lutherans that if the sticking point is accepting ‘transubstantiation’ to further ecumenical progress with Roman Catholics then so be it. The conclusion in the Catholic-Lutheran Dialogue on the Eucharist, is that there is no significant difference of belief in the Real Presence.
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Peter_J
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I think Eastern Catholics would be a little disappointed if the Lutherans caved in that way.
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hn160
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What you are arguing for is what Luther rejected from Zwingli’s. Catholic’s are always trying to explain things that are not in Scripture. Let it be what Christ said that it is. That said, I know what I receive. End of subject.hn160,
Evanglecatholic, Said: “Luther taught us that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine.”
hn160, So now I ask you the same question I asked Evanglecatholic, He has not answered as yet and BenJohnson, who goes around the question, and perhaps you will to.
The Question is, did Jesus Christ say: I am the Bread of Life! Or I am in that piece of bread of Life?
“In that piece of bread” hits me the wrong way, because Jesus Christ never said as Martin Luther taught. Jesus Christ said: I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE
What part of I Am the Bread of Life, didn’t You and Martin Luther, get?
Ufam Tobie
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ufamtobie
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Hn160
Why are you afraid to answer the question below
The Question again is, did Jesus Christ say: I Am the Bread of Life! Or, I Am in that piece of bread of Life…?
It seems to me that you are afraid to quote Scripture? Jesus Said: “I Am the Bread of Life”, why can’t you? It is the only Correct answer to say, because "Let it be what Christ said that it “is” ", and not what Martin Luther’s says it “is”
Evangelcatholic stated “Martin Luther taught us that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine.”
Why you don’t want to answer my question to you, is it because Martin Luther teachings above contradicts Jesus Christ saying: I am the Bread of Life?
Whose teaching do you prefer Jesus Christ’s or Martin Luther’s? I prefer Christ teaching and so does the Catholic Church.
Your lutheran Eucharist that you receive, is no more that a spiritual communion, which is good. Because the Real Eucharist Jesus Christ is not there in that piece of earthly bread, HE is100% BREAD from Heaven not earth, at consecration.
Hn160, I know what you are going to say to me: "Ufam, What part of “End of Subject” don’t you understand.
Ufam Tobie
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ufamtobie
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Benjohnson,
Jesus Christ left His Church to guide us and if His Church says Transubstantiation, then it is Transubstantiation, because the Holy Spirit Guides It, thus.
Authority, is what the Catholic Church has from above to teach us, and it is what all Protestant churches lack, and simply are jealous of the fact.
Ufam Tobie
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ufamtobie
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EvangelCatholic,
Do you really want ecumenical progress? The reason why I ask this question, because there “is” a Tread called “Will you join with the Catholic Church for one day”? Thread date SEPT. 4 It’s re: as you already know, i’m sure, praying with the Pope /Catholic Church for Peace in Syria. I myself don’t post in every thread but, I found it odd, that, since you speak about “Ecumenical Progress” above here, and did not post a thing re: your participation prayer, nor did JonNC, who also speaks about ecumenical progress or any of the Lutherans LCMS as of today’s date except for BenJohnson. Good For you BenJohnson, by the way.
EvangelCatholic, I do my home work lol, Since the thread date of Sept 4 you posted 20 or so post, and JonNC over 90 posts wow that is a lot Jon, and neither of you posted that you will join in prayer with Pope Francis. Why?
I know this don’t mean, that you or JonNC or any LCMS did not pray along with Pope Francis, for peace, But not one post, really, not one, I mean you guys post like crazy everywhere, but this one thread, not.
There even was a post, from an agnostic, who said would participate.
Only the Pope can bring all Christian and agnostics and one Lutheran BenJohnson, together in such a short time, because He is the Vicar of Christ. Amen 1000 thousand present, millions and millions world wide.
I believe I know the Answer why, and i hope i am correct.
Ufam Tobie
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ThatOneGuy92
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Ufam Tobie-Hn160
Why are you afraid to answer the question below
The Question again is, did Jesus Christ say: I Am the Bread of Life! Or, I Am in that piece of bread of Life…?
It seems to me that you are afraid to quote Scripture? Jesus Said: “I Am the Bread of Life”, why can’t you? It is the only Correct answer to say, because "Let it be what Christ said that it “is” ", and not what Martin Luther’s says it “is”
Evangelcatholic stated “Martin Luther taught us that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine.”
Why you don’t want to answer my question to you, is it because Martin Luther teachings above contradicts Jesus Christ saying: I am the Bread of Life?
Whose teaching do you prefer Jesus Christ’s or Martin Luther’s? I prefer Christ teaching and so does the Catholic Church.
Your lutheran Eucharist that you receive, is no more that a spiritual communion, which is good. Because the Real Eucharist Jesus Christ is not there in that piece of earthly bread, HE is100% BREAD from Heaven not earth, at consecration.
Hn160, I know what you are going to say to me: "Ufam, What part of “End of Subject” don’t you understand.
Ufam Tobie
You keep repeating your question. The various Lutherans have responded, and yet it would seem perhaps there is a misunderstanding. Allow to me to respond.
Did Jesus Christ say, “I am the Bread of Life”?
Yes.
Is the Eucharist the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ?
Yes.
Therefore, is the Eucharist the Bread of Life, Jesus Christ Himself, His own Body and Blood?
Yes.
Transubstantiation isn’t an explanation of “how” the miracle of Holy Communion occurs. It is an attempt, utilizing Aristotelian metaphysical terminology, to explain that though all our mortal senses perceive and experience the elements as bread and wine, the reality is that we are experiencing Christ’s Body and Blood.
This explanation is acceptable, in so far as it goes. The Catholic Church has made this dogma. The Lutheran Church has no problems with transubstantiation per se; rather, we disagree with the idea that one must agree to this way of explaining the Real Presence, under pain of anathema.
Lutherans do not attempt to utilize Aristotelian metaphysics to explain the Eucharist. We have such sayings as “in, with, and under”, and “Sacramental Union”. Again, these are not attempts to explain “how” the miracle occurs. It is a matter of saying that, while what we sensually and materially experience and perceive as bread and wine, the true reality is that it is Jesus’ Body and Blood.
Same thing, different emphasis, with the exception that we don’t anathematize those who do not use our particular way of speaking. The point is that one holds to the doctrine of the Real Presence- that is, Holy Communion is the very Body and Blood of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ.
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