Consubstantiation/Lutherans

[JonNC]

=ufamtobie;11196577]

Do you really want ecumenical progress? The reason why I ask this question, because there “is” a Tread called “Will you join with the Catholic Church for one day”? Thread date SEPT. 4

It’s re: as you already know, i’m sure, praying with the Pope /Catholic Church for Peace in Syria. I myself don’t post in every thread but, I found it odd, that, since you speak about “Ecumenical Progress” above here, and did not post a thing re: your participation prayer, nor did JonNC, who also speaks about ecumenical progress or any of the Lutherans LCMS as of today’s date except for BenJohnson. Good For you BenJohnson, by the way.

EvangelCatholic, I do my home work lol, Since the thread date of Sept 4 you posted 20 or so post, and JonNC over 90 posts wow that is a lot Jon, and neither of you posted that you will join in prayer with Pope Francis. Why?

I know this don’t mean, that you or JonNC or any LCMS did not pray along with Pope Francis, for peace, But not one post, really, not one, I mean you guys post like crazy everywhere, but this one thread, not. There even was a post, from an agnostic, who said would participate.
Ufam,
There are lots and lots of threads I don’t post on. I would even say that the majority of threads here in the NCR forum I have not posted on. Ecumenical progress is not determined upon whether or not I posted on a thread. The fact is I didn’t notice it/ open it until later in the day Saturday, so I didn’t post (too late to fully participate in the fast).

Only the Pope can bring all Christian and agnostics and one Lutheran BenJohnson, together in such a short time, because He is the Vicar of Christ. Amen 1000 thousand present, millions and millions world wide.

He certainly is the Bishop of Rome, and the western Patriarch. I too believe that he has a great influence on peace, and that unity is not possible without him.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Ufam Tobie-

You keep repeating your question. The various Lutherans have responded, and yet it would seem perhaps there is a misunderstanding. Allow to me to respond.

Did Jesus Christ say, “I am the Bread of Life”?
Yes.

Is the Eucharist the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ?
Yes.

Therefore, is the Eucharist the Bread of Life, Jesus Christ Himself, His own Body and Blood?
Yes.

Transubstantiation isn’t an explanation of “how” the miracle of Holy Communion occurs. It is an attempt, utilizing Aristotelian metaphysical terminology, to explain that though all our mortal senses perceive and experience the elements as bread and wine, the reality is that we are experiencing Christ’s Body and Blood.

This explanation is acceptable, in so far as it goes. The Catholic Church has made this dogma. The Lutheran Church has no problems with transubstantiation per se; rather, we disagree with the idea that one must agree to this way of explaining the Real Presence, under pain of anathema.

Lutherans do not attempt to utilize Aristotelian metaphysics to explain the Eucharist. We have such sayings as “in, with, and under”, and “Sacramental Union”. Again, these are not attempts to explain “how” the miracle occurs. It is a matter of saying that, while what we sensually and materially experience and perceive as bread and wine, the true reality is that it is Jesus’ Body and Blood.

Same thing, different emphasis, with the exception that we don’t anathematize those who do not use our particular way of speaking. The point is that one holds to the doctrine of the Real Presence- that is, Holy Communion is the very Body and Blood of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

EvangelCatholic,

Do you really want ecumenical progress? The reason why I ask this question, because there “is” a Tread called “Will you join with the Catholic Church for one day”? Thread date SEPT. 4 It’s re: as you already know, i’m sure, praying with the Pope /Catholic Church for Peace in Syria. I myself don’t post in every thread but, I found it odd, that, since you speak about “Ecumenical Progress” above here, and did not post a thing re: your participation prayer, nor did JonNC, who also speaks about ecumenical progress or any of the Lutherans LCMS as of today’s date except for BenJohnson. Good For you BenJohnson, by the way.

EvangelCatholic, I do my home work lol, Since the thread date of Sept 4 you posted 20 or so post, and JonNC over 90 posts wow that is a lot Jon, and neither of you posted that you will join in prayer with Pope Francis. Why?

I know this don’t mean, that you or JonNC or any LCMS did not pray along with Pope Francis, for peace, But not one post, really, not one, I mean you guys post like crazy everywhere, but this one thread, not. There even was a post, from an agnostic, who said would participate.

Only the Pope can bring all Christian and agnostics and one Lutheran BenJohnson, together in such a short time, because He is the Vicar of Christ. Amen 1000 thousand present, millions and millions world wide.

I believe I know the Answer why, and i hope i am correct.

Ufam Tobie

Ufam

You can not seriously hold other posters responsible for reading all the threads on this forum, can you? To assume that I am not a strong supporter of the papacy suggests that you may have counted my posts but did not read them. It is ironic that a friend to Roman Catholics, such as I am, would be accused of the opposite.

My impression of the forum, in general, is that theological issues are debated in the extreme even when consensus has occurred long ago. To not acknowledge the declarations and official positions of both the Roman Catholic and Lutheran churches suggests an unwillingness to accept one another as brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Peter_J]

EvangelCatholic,

Do you really want ecumenical progress? The reason why I ask this question, because there “is” a Tread called “Will you join with the Catholic Church for one day”? Thread date SEPT. 4 It’s re: as you already know, i’m sure, praying with the Pope /Catholic Church for Peace in Syria. I myself don’t post in every thread but, I found it odd, that, since you speak about “Ecumenical Progress” above here, and did not post a thing re: your participation prayer, nor did JonNC, who also speaks about ecumenical progress or any of the Lutherans LCMS as of today’s date except for BenJohnson. Good For you BenJohnson, by the way.

Hi ufamtobie. I don’t know if it’s because I didn’t read your other posts (it was really just coincidence that I saw this ^^ one), but this really leaves me scratching my head. I mean okay, you found two posters (EvangelCatholic and JonNC) who didn’t post on the thread “Will you join with the Catholic Church for one day?” … so that’s odd?

 

[ufamtobie]

Ufam Tobie-

You keep repeating your question. The various Lutherans have responded, and yet it would seem perhaps there is a misunderstanding. Allow to me to respond.

Did Jesus Christ say, “I am the Bread of Life”?
Yes.

Is the Eucharist the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ?
Yes.

Therefore, is the Eucharist the Bread of Life, Jesus Christ Himself, His own Body and Blood?
Yes.

Thatoneguy,

And I will repeat it again, here goes:

Evangelcatholic posted “Martin Luther taught us that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine.”

Great, I see you have answered the above correctly and disagree with Martin Luther’s teaching re" “Martin Luther taught us that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine.” Good for you, :thumbsup:because as you know through your 3 yes’s above that Jesus Christ "Is Not" there in that piece of bread, He is 100% the BREAD.

The Catholic Eucharist may look like bread, may taste like bread, but it is not earthly bread. The Wine may smell and taste like wine, but it is not wine.

Martin Luther’s teaching above contradicts our Lord saying “I am the Bread…”

ThatoneGuy now in order to receive the Body and Blood of Christ aka Eucharist it is through ThatOneChurch. Amen. You may tell me, what about the Orthodox Church, and I will tell you, worry for yourself.

Ufam Tobie

 

[steido01]

Thatoneguy,

And I will repeat it again, here goes:

Evangelcatholic posted “Martin Luther taught us that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine.”

Great, I see you have answered the above correctly and disagree with Martin Luther’s teaching re" “Martin Luther taught us that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine.” Good for you, :thumbsup:because as you know through your 3 yes’s above that Jesus Christ "Is Not" there in that piece of bread, He is 100% the BREAD.

The Catholic Eucharist may look like bread, may taste like bread, but it is not earthly bread. The Wine may smell and taste like wine, but it is not wine.

Martin Luther’s teaching above contradicts our Lord saying “I am the Bread…”

ThatoneGuy now in order to receive the Body and Blood of Christ aka Eucharist it is through ThatOneChurch. Amen. You may tell me, what about the Orthodox Church, and I will tell you, worry for yourself.

Ufam Tobie

Ufam you misunderstand the Lutheran position. Martin Luther would have responded to each of those three questions the exact same way that Thatoneguy did.

I encourage you to re-read the Lutheran posts in this thread. You will see that our understanding is entirely about the Real Presence.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

Thatoneguy,

And I will repeat it again, here goes:

Evangelcatholic posted “Martin Luther taught us that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine.”

Great, I see you have answered the above correctly and disagree with Martin Luther’s teaching re" “Martin Luther taught us that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine.” Good for you, :thumbsup:because as you know through your 3 yes’s above that Jesus Christ "Is Not" there in that piece of bread, He is 100% the BREAD.

The Catholic Eucharist may look like bread, may taste like bread, but it is not earthly bread. The Wine may smell and taste like wine, but it is not wine.

Martin Luther’s teaching above contradicts our Lord saying “I am the Bread…”

ThatoneGuy now in order to receive the Body and Blood of Christ aka Eucharist it is through ThatOneChurch. Amen. You may tell me, what about the Orthodox Church, and I will tell you, worry for yourself.

Ufam Tobie

Ufam Tobie-

Perhaps EvangelCatholic misspoke. In any case, here is what the Lutheran Confessions say about the nature of our Eucharistic beliefs re: the Real Presence:

The Defense of the Augsburg Confession
Article X: Of the Holy Supper.

54] The Tenth Article has been approved, in which we confess that we believe, that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered, with those things which are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the Sacrament. This belief we constantly defend, as the subject has been carefully examined and considered. For since Paul says, 1 Cor. 10:16, that the bread is the communion of the Lord’s body, etc., it would follow, if the Lord’s body were not truly present, that the bread is not a communion of the body, but only of the spirit of Christ. 55] And we have ascertained that not only the Roman Church affirms the bodily presence of Christ, but the Greek Church also both now believes, and formerly believed, the same. For the canon of the Mass among them testifies to this, in which the priest clearly prays that the bread may be changed and become the very body of Christ. And Vulgarius, who seems to us to be not a silly writer, says distinctly that bread is not a mere figure, but 56] is truly changed into flesh. And there is a long exposition of Cyril on John 15, in which he teaches that Christ is corporeally offered us in the Supper. For he says thus: Nevertheless, we do not deny that we are joined spiritually to Christ by true faith and sincere love. But that we have no mode of connection with Him, according to the flesh, this indeed we entirely deny. And this, we say, is altogether foreign to the divine Scriptures. For who has doubted that Christ is in this manner a vine, and we the branches, deriving thence life for ourselves? Hear Paul saying 1 Cor. 10:17; Rom. 12:5; Gal. 3:28: We are all one body in Christ; although we are many, we are, nevertheless, one in Him; for we are, all partakers of that one bread. Does he perhaps think that the virtue of the mystical benediction is unknown to us? Since this is in us, does it not also, by the communication of Christ’s flesh, cause Christ to dwell in us bodily? And a little after: Whence we must consider that Christ is in us not only according to the habit, which we call love, 57] but also by natural participation, etc. We have cited these testimonies, not to undertake a discussion here concerning this subject, for His Imperial Majesty does not disapprove of this article, but in order that all who may read them may the more clearly perceive that we defend the doctrine received in the entire Church, that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered with those things which are seen, bread and wine. And we speak of the presence of the living Christ [living body]; for we know that death hath no more dominion over Him, Rom. 6:9

 

[Per_Crucem]

So…Ben…when Luther says the following analogy:

Consubstantiation” is a term commonly applied to the Lutheran concept of the communion supper, though some modern Lutheran theologians reject the use of this term because of its ambiguity. The expression, however, is generally associated with Luther. The idea is that in the communion, the body and blood of Christ, and the bread and wine, coexist in union with each other. “Luther illustrated it by the analogy of the iron put into the fire whereby both fire and iron are united in the red-hot iron and yet each continues unchanged” (The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, F.L. Cross, Ed., London: Oxford, 1958, p. 337).

What is Luther trying to do? Isn’t he trying to replace the reality of what Jesus taught? Isn’t what Luther trying to do is explain the mystery?

Just as a side note, and I am not familiar with Cross, but Luther did not use the analogy of fire heating iron to explain the Sacrament. That analogy was actually used by Martin Chemnitz to describe the hypostatic union of the two natures of Christ.

 

[ufamtobie]

Ufam Tobie-

Perhaps EvangelCatholic misspoke. In any case, here is what the Lutheran Confessions say about the nature of our Eucharistic beliefs re: the Real Presence:

ThatOneGuy,

RE: your post #187 you say “Perhaps Evangelcatholic Misspoke”?

Then as a fellow Lutheran of Evangelicalcatholic, I think you have the duty to let him know that re: evenagelcatholic post #13 re: “Luther taught us that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine”. is a wrong teaching by Martin Luther to the Lutherans Church.

Then again you said: “Perhaps” Evangelcatholic misspoke, this means you yourself are not sure about your Lutheran church teachings?

Ufam Tobie

 

[steido01]

ThatOneGuy,

RE: your post #187 you say “Perhaps Evangelcatholic Misspoke”?

Then as a fellow Lutheran of Evangelicalcatholic, I think you have the duty to let him know that re: evenagelcatholic post #13 re: “Luther taught us that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine”. is a wrong teaching by Martin Luther to the Lutherans Church.

Then again you said: “Perhaps” Evangelcatholic misspoke, this means you yourself are not sure about your Lutheran church teachings?

Ufam Tobie

Ufam, you are seizing on words without giving thought to their intended meaning. Would you say it was wrong of the apostle Paul to also call the Body and Blood, bread and wine (1 Corinthians 11:27)?

Luther held the same view that we Lutherans on this thread have expressed: Holy Communion IS the Body and Blood. Not to start a thread on who can, under normal circumstances, be permitted to communion, but **your own communion acknowledges this: **

…Episcopal and Protestant Christians may receive the sacraments of Eucharist, Reconciliation and Anointing of the Sick from a Catholic minister when in danger of death, or in situations of “grave necessity” or “grave and pressing need,” as interpreted and explained in section III above. In such cases the five conditions of canon 844.4 must be met:

1. 
   ]The person requesting the sacrament must be validly baptized. Baptism is valid when water is poured or the person is immersed and the trinitarian formula is used. For example, valid baptism is presumed for Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians and Methodists. (21)
   ]The person must manifest the faith which the Catholic Church professes in the sacrament. As a minimum for Eucharistic sharing, the person must believe that in receiving the Eucharist we receive the body and blood of Christ. In some communions this is standard dogma; for example, Episcopalians and Lutherans can be presumed to believe in the real presence. **For members of other communions there may be need for some further discussion concerning their belief in the Eucharist.
   *]The person must ask for the sacrament freely. The request must have been initiated by the person seeking Eucharistic communion.
   *]The person must be unable to have recourse for the sacrament to a minister of his or her own community. This condition is met when gaining access to one’s own minister poses a reasonable physical, moral or psychological difficulty, or causes serious inconvenience for the minister or recipient.
   *]The person must be properly disposed to receive the sacrament. As noted above “proper disposition” is the same as required for Catholics, i.e., not conscious of serious sin (see canon 916). “Being properly disposed means being in a good relationship with God, or if not, taking whatever steps are necessary to return to a good relationship with God.” (22)

1. 
   

   In light of the above canonical norms and pastoral reflections, the following situations are examples–not an exhaustive list-- of occasions, other than danger of death, when a “grave necessity” may be discerned and Eucharist may be shared with Episcopal
   or Protestant Christians if all the conditions are met…

   Emphasis mine. Source: drvc.org/the-chancery/special-circumstances-for-the-admission-of-other-christians-to-communion-at-catholic-celebrations-of-the-eucharist-in-the-diocese-of-rockville-centre.html

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

ThatOneGuy,

RE: your post #187 you say “Perhaps Evangelcatholic Misspoke”?

Then as a fellow Lutheran of Evangelicalcatholic, I think you have the duty to let him know that re: evenagelcatholic post #13 re: “Luther taught us that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine”. is a wrong teaching by Martin Luther to the Lutherans Church.

Then again you said: “Perhaps” Evangelcatholic misspoke, this means you yourself are not sure about your Lutheran church teachings?

Ufam Tobie

I stand by what I said. Perhaps he misspoke. After all, translations do usually leave something to be desired. And besides, even assuming he is in error, aren’t we all sometimes?

Furthermore, Christ IS in the bread and wine. What we perceive as bread and wine, and what all our senses tell us is bread and wine, is Christ’s Body and Blood. Even St. Paul calls the bread we break the Body of Christ, and the cup a participation in His Blood.

For theological discussions, where we definite all the minute details, perhaps it isn’t always the best to say “Christ is in the bread and wine”. But it isn’t incorrect.

Again:
The Eucharist is Christ’s Body and Blood, given us for the forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation.

I am clear on what the Lutheran Church teaches, given I have just quoted from our official confessional documents.

 

[pablope]

Just as a side note, and I am not familiar with Cross, but Luther did not use the analogy of fire heating iron to explain the Sacrament. That analogy was actually used by Martin Chemnitz to describe the hypostatic union of the two natures of Christ.

Are you sure? Then the article is in error…

 

[hn160]

We all have our problems.

What do you think is happening in the photo?

A Runners are receiving refreshment in their race…

B People are standing around talking and eating and drinking…

C YAVs at the LCMS National Youth Gathering are answering a youth’s question…

D LCMS Convention Eucharist is being distributed…

E Roman Catholic Youth at the World Youth Day in Rio are communing…

If you selected E, you were correct. Yes, those are plastic cups serving as the ciboria for this Mass. In case you were wondering, the National Youth Gathering and the LCMS Convention used ceramic vessels crafted for the event [and, in the case of the Convention, then given to mission congregations]. That should not make you feel much better. We have our own open sores with respect to the means of distributing the Holy Supper. Mass events tend to bring out the worst in us. We treat the distribution of the Body and Blood of Christ as if it were merely the hawking of food in the food court of a local carnival. Get your elephant ears, fried Twinkies, and Body and Blood of Jesus here… step right up! What is most disconcerting is how this casual treatment of that which is the most precious food of all has ended up in the Roman Church. Some will sigh with relief that at least the photo was not of us and our screw up but I maintain that it should not comfort us one bit that it was Rio and the World Youth Day. Such disrespect erodes the confidence of the people that it is what the Lord in His Word says it is. For if it is indeed the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, it deserves nothing less than our best vessels for sacred use and the deepest honor of our hearts. Anything less and we make common what is holy, one of the definitions of blasphemy.

• See more at: pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/#sthash.igHxLahI.dpuf

 

[EvangelCatholic]

We all have our problems.

What do you think is happening in the photo?

A Runners are receiving refreshment in their race…

B People are standing around talking and eating and drinking…

C YAVs at the LCMS National Youth Gathering are answering a youth’s question…

D LCMS Convention Eucharist is being distributed…

E Roman Catholic Youth at the World Youth Day in Rio are communing…

If you selected E, you were correct. Yes, those are plastic cups serving as the ciboria for this Mass. In case you were wondering, the National Youth Gathering and the LCMS Convention used ceramic vessels crafted for the event [and, in the case of the Convention, then given to mission congregations]. That should not make you feel much better. We have our own open sores with respect to the means of distributing the Holy Supper. Mass events tend to bring out the worst in us. We treat the distribution of the Body and Blood of Christ as if it were merely the hawking of food in the food court of a local carnival. Get your elephant ears, fried Twinkies, and Body and Blood of Jesus here… step right up! What is most disconcerting is how this casual treatment of that which is the most precious food of all has ended up in the Roman Church. Some will sigh with relief that at least the photo was not of us and our screw up but I maintain that it should not comfort us one bit that it was Rio and the World Youth Day. Such disrespect erodes the confidence of the people that it is what the Lord in His Word says it is. For if it is indeed the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, it deserves nothing less than our best vessels for sacred use and the deepest honor of our hearts. Anything less and we make common what is holy, one of the definitions of blasphemy.

• See more at: pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/#sthash.igHxLahI.dpuf

That photo is painful to look at and quite surprising that the communicants are Catholic. But we have all seen worshippers take holy Communion in a manner that appears disrespectful. People with gum in their mouths, people chatting with each other or waving to other worshippers while going up to and returning from the altar.

If Christ was visible to us we would all drop to our knees in awe and utter joy.

 

[benjohnson]

Roman Catholic Youth at the World Youth Day in Rio are communing… …] Yes, those are plastic cups serving as the ciboria for this Mass.

It’s things like this that make me understand where the idea of Receptionism came from.

 

[Peter_J]

I stand by what I said. Perhaps he misspoke. After all, translations do usually leave something to be desired. And besides, even assuming he is in error, aren’t we all sometimes?

Furthermore, Christ IS in the bread and wine. What we perceive as bread and wine, and what all our senses tell us is bread and wine, is Christ’s Body and Blood. Even St. Paul calls the bread we break the Body of Christ, and the cup a participation in His Blood.

The thing is, saying “is in” isn’t the same as saying “is”.

 

[ufamtobie]

I stand by what I said. Perhaps he misspoke. After all, translations do usually leave something to be desired. And besides, even assuming he is in error, aren’t we all sometimes?

ThatOneGuy, the Catholic Church can not be in error in it’s teachings! As for me that is another story I error, thank Jesus Christ for the Sacrament of Confession

Furthermore, Christ IS

Thatoneguy, Yes, you are clear on what the lutheran church teaches, but that don’t make it right, How many CONFESSIONAL’S should there be, because one more than the first, in one to many and not of God but of man.

Ufam Tobie

 

[ufamtobie]

I must yield to Jon on the issue of consubstantiation. Attempting to explain how Christ is present in the sacrament is impossible. Luther taught us that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine.

American Lutherans mostly refer to the sacrament as either Holy Communion or Eucharist. European Lutherans call it Mass.

Evangelcatholic,

Thatoneguy, said in post #191 that you “perhaps misspoke” Re: “Luther taught us that Christ “is” there in that piece of bread and cup of wine”.

Things that make me go hmmmmmopcorn:

Ufam Tobie

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

The thing is, saying “is in” isn’t the same as saying “is”.

Fair enough. I suppose I will let EvangelCatholic clarify what he said. I stand by what we officially teach regarding the Real Presence. Some (including myself at times) may not express it properly, or well, but it is beaten into our minds in Confirmation/Catechism classes that Holy Communion is the Body and Blood of Jesus.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

Thatoneguy, Yes, you are clear on what the lutheran church teaches, but that don’t make it right, How many CONFESSIONAL’S should there be, because one more than the first, in one to many and not of God but of man.

Ufam Tobie

I appreciate your zeal, Ufam Tobie. I really do. I do hope and pray that all Christians may again be one visible body upon Earth one day. Whether that happens on this side of the Eschaton or not, I cannot say. Nevertheless, we can pray for an increase of love towards one another.