Contact With Baha'is and the Baha'i Faith

  • Thread starter Thread starter RonPrice
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
mikelionheart said:
Hi Ron

It’s great to have you here.
The Bahai is a very interesting and wonderful one.
I have been to the temple in Delhi and there is a small Bahai group here in my hometown that are really wonderful people and good friends of mine. The mother of one of them recently wrote the Bahai section of the UK National School Religious Education curriculum.

However, I really must agree with Steve.

My biggest issue with Bahai’ism is that it is obviously a bit of a pick and mix and steal from other religions and claim that it is standing on their shoulders and that it’s the Bahais that ‘truly’ understand what all those other religion’s founders really taught.

It is a bit like Muhammed’s pinching from Christianity and Judaism in order to give his new religion more credibility.

Keep posting Ron.

God bless.
Click to expand...
I don’t know when Ron may be back to follow up so please excuse my post…

I think what you are concerned about is that the Baha’i Faith (It was called Bahaism in the early twentieth century but now usually referred to as ‘Baha’i faith’) is a mere syncratic borrowing of various religions…syncretism if you will…

and I think that’s understandable to a degree looking at it from the outside perhaps as you will see people with Christian backgrounds maybe acclimating overtime to the Faith… It takes in my view at least a year for someone who is new to the Faith to shall we say absorb it’s culture of being a Baha’i … and to understand it more fully.

Also it’s possible that someoen might assume we are only syncretists because we will sometimes in discussing the Faith agree with maybe some concepts that are known to our listeners.

The Faith is primarily based on the revelations received by Baha’u’llah, the Bab and the interpretations of Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi…

reference.bahai.org/en/

So if you were to say read these you would have an idea that our primary source is the revelation rather than say some kind of planned absorbtion of other religions around us.

The revelations of Baha’u’llah and the Bab and associated interpretations were in a social and historical context … primarily in the Middle East in Iran, Iraq, Turkey and the Holy Land between 1844 and 1957…

The Faith also has it’s own Calendar, Holy Days, community and Writings that I think you’ll find are quite unique but also give due reverence to past dispensations.
 
arthra said:
Steve,

On your concern “incorporate Jesus as a prophet” allow me to comment … I know the term “prophet” may jhave a diminutive definition in some contexts and I think if you understand what the Baha’i view is about Jesus Christ it may help explain… First though let me say that you are not quoting my words from my last post… They are the words … actually an English translation of the words of Abdul-Baha sometime ago… I included it would help explain our views.

To understand the Baha’i view of Jesus I believe it would be best to explain a concept that we have called “Manifestation of God”… I have a facebook friend Julio Savi who wrote an excellent synopsis of the concept at

bahai-library.com/books/quest/quest.06.html

The reason I prefer this is because it is succinct and an easy to follow outline of the concept abnd it has references to follow up on… Once you’ve perused this I think you will come to a better understanding of our view of Jesus as a Manifestion of God and why we normally would not simply refer to Jesus as a prophet…but a Manifestation of God.
Click to expand...
Arthra, I appreciate your response and I read the link you posted explaining the “Manifestations of God”. After reading this, however, my fundamental point has not changed. What I did learn, however, is that `Abdu’l-Bahá has created a different Jesus than the Jesus of Sacred Scripture. He has either ignored the claims of Christ concerning himself, or has just chosen to create his own in order to include him with the other “Manifestations” (Abraham, Moses, Muhammad, Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster and, more recently, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh).

He purports that Jesus, while being divine and eternal, was created. Christianity completley rejects that notion and has proclaimed it a heresy. He speaks of the “Manifestations of God” as "`like a mirror wherein the Sun of Reality is reflected… a perfect expression of the Sun’. Christ claimed to be God himself. He is not a reflection, but rather the “Sun” itself.

My point is that the nature of the Person of Christ has been watered down to the point that he is no different than Abraham or Moses, not to mention the others. He was either not familiar with the Scriptures or has chosen make his own invention.

In that regard, my opinion of the Bahai Faith has changed somewhat. I had assumed that there would be some integrity in accepting who Jesus claimed to be and that it was somehow incorporated into Bahai beliefs. I was wrong. The Person of Jesus has instead been changed in order to fit within the framework of those beliefs to the point that I don’t believe the Bahai faith can claim Jesus at all, but rather a gross caricature invented by Abdu’l-Bahá. This is certainly not the Jesus of Scripture as described by Jesus himself and the witnesses to his life.
 
My point is that the nature of the Person of Christ has been watered down to the point that he is no different than Abraham or Moses, not to mention the others. He was either not familiar with the Scriptures or has chosen make his own invention.
Click to expand...
In that regard, my opinion of the Bahai Faith has changed somewhat. I had assumed that there would be some integrity in accepting who Jesus claimed to be and that it was somehow incorporated into Bahai beliefs.
Click to expand...
Yeah, Steve. Even though Baha’i is a step up from Islam, it falls far short of Catholicism. 🤷 They still believe that the NT doesn’t tell the story as it really happened.
 
arthra said:
Spiritually we believe the religions are one…
Click to expand...
Well, I reckon you Baha’is are on to something there 🙂

Sikhs also believe in the Unity of Religions and of Mankind.

This isn’t too far from the Catholic position. Augustine taught that there was one, eternal religion of God and that all the holy people of ancient times - lets think of Socrates, Buddha, Plato, the Hindu Upanishadic sages - were all spiritually speaking members of that religion. He said that it was only with the coming of Christ that this eternal religion became known as Christianity. The church father Saint Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) taught that: “Truth, no matter where it is found, is Christian truth”. He said that all godly ancient Greek philosphers such as Socrates and Plato were spiritually speaking Christians; and he extended this even to present times, saying that all good people who follow the truth known to their consciences are unwittingly Christians, baptised later tradition would tell us by implicit desire, since Jesus is the “Logos” (Reason) of God who dwells within every single conscience and “enlightens all”. Embracing of any truth then, is embracing of Him who is Truth incarnate.

Catholics believe in a concept known as baptism by implicit desire or baptism by love/contrition/fire which essentially teaches that all good people, of whatever religion be it Muslim, Jew or Baha’i, are spiritually members of the Catholic Church through baptism of desire, which is an implicit seeking after the truth known to the dictates of one’s conscience and following the Will of God as known to that individual conscience. In this way Catholicism teaches, unlike most other forms of Christianity, that salvation is truly open to all irrespective of faith whilst still maintaining the centrality of Christ to that salvation, since it is only through Him that anyone is saved, and indeed his Holy Church which is his body and outside of which there is no salvation.

Blessed Pope John Paul II once said:

"…You speak of many religions. Instead I will attempt to show the common fundamental element and the common root of these religions…From the beginning, Christian Revelation has viewed the spiritual history of man as including, in some way, all religions, thereby demonstrating the unity of humankind with regard to the eternal and ultimate destiny of man. The Church sees the promotion of this unity as one of its duties…"

As a Baha’i do you think that the late Holy Father was on to something ( 😃 ) in his book “Crossing the Threshold of Hope” cited above? I don’t think its too far from the Baha’i view, as far as I can tell, although there are naturally significant differences between our two faiths as concerns the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ as others have demonstrated.

Hence why I think Baha’is are “on to something” even if they, from the Catholic perspective, wander off base in other areas.

Much love 👍
 
Steve wrote:

*In that regard, my opinion of the Bahai Faith has changed somewhat. I had assumed that there would be some integrity in accepting who Jesus claimed to be and that it was somehow incorporated into Bahai beliefs. I was wrong. The Person of Jesus has instead been changed in order to fit within the framework of those beliefs to the point that I don’t believe the Bahai faith can claim Jesus at all, but rather a gross caricature invented by Abdu’l-Bahá. This is certainly not the Jesus of Scripture as described by Jesus himself and the witnesses to his life. *

Thanks for your reply Steve and you are certainly entitled to yourt point of view… and I won’t argue with you here.

I agree with you that the Baha’i view of Jesus likely differs from you own and that of traditional Christianity as normally understood.

Also thanks for reviewing the article I referenced!

bahai-library.com/books/quest/quest.06.html

🙂

One other article that you may find helpful about the Baha’i view of Jesus can be found at

bahai-library.com/sours_christian_bahai_terminology
 
Vouthon…

Thanks for your post…

Yes I think His Holiness John Paul II was on to something…

“I will attempt to show the common fundamental element and the common root of these religions”

Also I thought your statement:

“Catholics believe in a concept known as baptism by implicit desire or baptism by love/contrition/fire which essentially teaches that all good people, of whatever religion be it Muslim, Jew or Baha’i, are spiritually members of the Catholic Church through baptism of desire, which is an implicit seeking after the truth known to the dictates of one’s conscience and following the Will of God as known to that individual conscience”

was of interest…

Maybe I could share some similar teachings found in our Writings on “Spiritual Baptism” and the essential unity of religions:

The performance of baptismal celebration would cleanse the body, but the spirit hath no share; but the divine teachings and the exhortations of the Beauty of Abha will baptize the soul. This is the real baptism. I hope that thou wilt receive this baptism.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 389

So, in the Qur’án it is said, “and we have caused a pure water to descend from heaven;” and in the Gospel, “Except a man hath received the baptism of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” Then it is evident that the divine teachings are the heavenly grace and the showers of the mercy of God, which purify the hearts of men.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 333

Regarding the unity of religion:

“The purpose of religion as revealed from the heaven of God’s holy Will is to establish unity and concord amongst the peoples of the world; make it not the cause of dissension and strife. The religion of God and His divine law are the most potent instruments and the surest of all means for the dawning of the light of unity amongst men. The progress of the world, the development of nations, the tranquillity of peoples, and the peace of all who dwell on earth are among the principles and ordinances of God.”

~ Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 129
 
Hi Arthra 🙂

Thanks for your reply brother and for sharing those quotes!

I’m a little pushed for time but later on I’ll get back to you on this. Its very interesting comparing/contrasting religions I think, its also healthy for the soul - you know, broadens the mind an’ all :cool:

I’ll leave you with a few quotes on our baptism by implicit desire doctrine:

“…Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek word that means washing or
immersion in water, is distinguished into Baptism of water, of spirit, and of blood. … But Baptism of spirit is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt…It is called ‘of spirit’ because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Spirit. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of spirit, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, ‘de presbytero non baptizato’ and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire…”
  • Saint Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696 – 1787), Doctor of the Church
As Saint Alphonsus explains above, Baptism of desire (or spirit) is de fide - that indicates that this religious doctrine is an essential part of Catholic faith and that denial of it is heresy. The Holy Office also made this clear infallibly in 1949 when it closed the Feeney case.

Baptism of desire, invincible ignorance and spiritual membership in the Church is the consistent teaching of the Fathers, theologians and of the magisterium on how to interpret “Outside the Church there is no salvation”.

As early as 1713 Clement XI condemned in his dogmatic Bull “Unigenitus” the proposition of the Jensenist Quesnel that" no grace is given outside the Church" just as Alexander VIII had already condemned in 1690 the Jansenistic proposition of Arnauld: “Pagans, Jews, heretics, and other people of the sort, receive no influx [of grace] whatsoever from Jesus Christ”. We subsequently have plentiful magisterial teaching from binding encyclicals and catechisms, including those of Blessed Pius IX, Pope Saint Pius X and Pope Pius XII. Thats a straight line of magisterial teaching.

Holy Office, Aug 9, 1949, condemning doctrine of L. Feeney (DS 3870):

“It is not always required that one be actually incorporated as a
member of the Church, but this at least is required: that one adhere
to it in wish and desire. It is not always necessary that this be
explicit…God accepts even an implicit will, called by that name because it is
contained in the good disposition of soul in which a man wills to
conform his will to the will of God.”

"…27 Q: Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?

A: No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

28 Q: How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?

A: The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.

29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can, such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

…

16 Q: Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

A: Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”

17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire…"

***- Pope St Pius X, Catechism (1910) ***

(continued…)
 
I’m going to quote from an ultra-traditionalist Catholic authority, the founder of SSPX - a branch of traditional Catholicism that was excommunicated from the Church in the 70s for its extreme views and is now, slowly, being welcomed back again although with qualifications.

The reason I am doing so is to demonstrate that even at its most extreme and traditionalist, Catholicism is still far more inclusivist than say mainline Protestant or Orthodox Christianity, and is probably the most compatible with Sikhism of all Christian demoinations.

"…There are three ways of receiving baptism: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.

Baptism of desire can be explicit…The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will [hukam] of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will [hukam]. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church…"

- (Archbishop Lefebvre, Open Letter to Confused Catholics)

So that is Catholicism at its most “extreme” and still these extremists do not condemn people of other faiths to damnation like some of our brethren of other denominations. And that’s us at our worst!

Every encyclical of a Pope since the 1960s has been addressed to “All men of Good WILL”.

As in Blessed Pope John XXIII’s 1963 encyclical “Pacem in Terris” (Peace on Earth): vatican.va/holy_father/jo…_pacem_en.html

Addressed at top to “All Men of Good Will”.

This emphasis on following the “Will of God” as known to one through the dictates of conscience and one’s faith to attain to a state of union with God (salvation) rather than “faith alone” as in Islam and Protestantism (where one must generally be a member of these respective religions to attain to “salvation”, or go to paradise in Islam) is where I’ve always thoughtCatholics and Sikhs are particularly close, and now perhaps Baha’is too! 🙂

What d’ya think?

I’ll get back to you! 👍
 
PS In case any one is wondering, I quoted the above quote from Lefebvre on a Sikh forum and I inserted the Sikh word for “Will of God” which is “Hukam” after it in the quote for the benefit of the Sikh friend I was discussing with. In case anyone is confused by this strange word - it isn’t original to the text! I copied and pasted it straight from the Sikh forum, forgetting to take away that insertion! 😃
 
Dear Arthra 🙂

Bravo brother!

I like those quotes from the Writings of your religion’s founders. I’ve never heard of these quotes before, even though I’ve had more than a few past encounters with groups of Baha’is. They are beautifully written, if you don’t mind me saying. Very poetic and full of thought-provoking imagery, although I imagine they are translations, right? From Persian or Arabic? So kudos to the translator as well, as I know its tough to translate sacred texts from one language to another whilst retaining the beauty of the original syntax, which doesn’t always carry as well into English. The Qur’an is like that, you really have to read it in the original language, so my Islamic friends have told me.

What strikes me most, is that I find their teachings to be very ‘promising’ vis-a-vis Catholic doctrine. Certainly if the Baha’i Writings are teaching such a form of spiritual baptism through following the Words of God as divinely expressed through the ordinances, laws and precepts of the Baha’i Revelation, then I would say that they are a good means of guiding the followers of your religion on the path of salvation towards Jesus Christ, although it is still (from our perspective) of lesser potency than the direct and only true *Way * to Christ through bodily membership in his own Body, Holy Mother Church. But it is reassuring nonetheless. Baha’is are clearly on the Way to Christ even with the regrettable lack of explicit knowledge which you possess of Chrit’s true Divine Nature as the Incarnation of God the Son - in Essence as opposed to mere reflection.

But its certainly a step up from Islam along the path, granted though that Islam also has its fair share of vivifying and divinely inspired truths from, the Holy Spirit, that guide Muslims towards their loving Lord Jesus.

The first quote you kindly provided from Abdu’l-Baha is most interesting. This man is highly praised by a Catholic document on your religion that was produced by the Bishops Conference of England and Wales. I’m quite sure you’ve probably read it, since quite a few of the Baha’is that I’ve conversed with online before have read it. The quote from Abdu’l-Baha implies that there is a baptism, distinguished from formal Water Baptism that admits one physically and corporeally into the Body of the Church and is the normal means of receiving this sacrament, which consists of adhering too, “the divine teachings and the exhortations of the Beauty of Abha”.

**Very Good! **

Indeed, for Pope Benedict XVI when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, produced a document back in - I think - the year 2000, called Dominus Iesus which was approved by Pope John Paul II (given his apostolic blessing). Before becoming Pope Benedict XVI, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger headed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. In this role, he issued, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, a document called Dominus Iesus. In it he wrote:

"…God, who desires to call all peoples to himself in Christ and to communicate to them the fullness of his revelation and love, “does not fail to make himself present in many ways, not only to individuals, but also to entire peoples through their spiritual riches, of which their religions are the main and essential expression even when they contain ‘gaps, insufficiencies and errors’.” Therefore, the sacred books of other religions, which in actual fact direct and nourish the existence of their followers, receive from the mystery of Christ the elements of goodness and grace which they contain (I, 8).

Theology today, in its reflection on the existence of other religious experiences and on their meaning in God’s salvific plan, is invited to explore if and in what way the historical figures and positive elements of these religions may fall within the divine plan of salvation. In this undertaking, theological research has a vast field of work under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium. The Second Vatican Council, in fact, has stated that: “The unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude, but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a participation in this one source” (III, 14)…"

In this respect the Catholic Church has already included Islam in the divine plan of salvation as well Buddhism and Hinduism in the Vatican II Declaration Nostra Aeatate and in its own words “other religions found everywhere [which] try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing “ways,” comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which…reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men”.

(continued…)
 
In particular the Catholic Church especially reveres those religions which preach clear Monotheism, such that the Catechhism writes:

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims…”

Since Baha’is “acknowledge the Creator” you are thereby according to Catholic doctrine expressly part of “the plan of salvation”. How and what purpose God has for adherents to your faith and others, is not expressly - as yet - defined by the Magisterium, I suppose given that the Baha’i Faith was not widely known in 1960, when the Church defined its relationship to Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism in particular, and implicitly all other religions through the phrase “religions found everywhere”.

As yet the the most important official document realeased by the Catholic Church on the Baha’i Faith specifically, has been the leaflet produced by the Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales in which Baha’is are highly praised and the Faith held up as an example of, “a higher loyalty to humankind”. Abdu’l-Baha is given particular recognition in this document by the Church, which says that “he continues to be a shinning example to all”.

No official stance has been taken yet on “Baha’u’llah” to quote and paraphrase Pope Benedict, so as to determine, “if and in what way the historical figure [Baha’u’llah] and positive elements of the [Baha’i] religion may fall within the divine plan of salvation”.

Certainly the Catholic Church (from its perspective) recognizes that God has implanted many seeds of Truth in the Baha’i Faith, and given my understanding of it, a substantial amount pariticularly in terms of “moral truth”.

And given that “religions are the main and essential expression” of God’s presence to their respective followers, that is a spark of saving grace and truth working outside the Visible confines of the Church to bring the followers of these religions to salvation, then certainly the idea that the Baha’i Faith teaches a spiritual baptism through adherence to its precepts and teachings, constitutes a real and to my mind unconcious embracing on the part of your religion’s founders of this extraordinary means of salvation.

So, as you can see, what Pope Benedict XVI said above fits perfectly with what Abdu’l-Baha said: There is a spiritual baptism by implicit desire, open to all people of Good Will regardless of faith whereas water baptism is open only to thosre who accept the Christian revelation, and this saving grace is manifested most especially through the various world religions and their rites which guide their followers to search within their consciences and adhere to the Will of God to the extent that they humanely can given their own personal circumstances.

Blessed Pope john Paul II is particularly illuinating in this respect, he once said:

"…The Holy Spirit is not only present in other religions through authentic expressions of prayer. “The Spirit’s presence and activity”, as I wrote in the Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio, “affect not only individuals but also society and history, peoples, cultures and religions” (n. 28).

Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)…” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, Instruction Dialogue and Proclamation, 19 May 1991, n. 29; L’Osservatore Romano English edition, 1 July 1991, p. III).

I pray then, and given your obvious virtues on this foum I trust, that you have received this spiritual baptism of which the Catholic Church teaches and the Baha’i Writings attest too.

Yep my hunch was right - you Baha’is are “onto to something” and the fact that you developed from Islam into a separate world religion seems to have something of the Holy Spirit behind it, to my mind, mysteriously at work in the Islamic world pushing it ever closer towards the fullness of truth in Christ 👍
 
Thanks for your several posts… Vouthon…

My responses to your posts here are my own as an individual Baha’i and I have attempted to provide some citations as needed.

Vouthon wrote:

This emphasis on following the “Will of God” as known to one through the dictates of conscience and one’s faith to attain to a state of union with God (salvation) rather than “faith alone” as in Islam and Protestantism (where one must generally be a member of these respective religions to attain to “salvation”, or go to paradise in Islam) is where I’ve always thoughtCatholics and Sikhs are particularly close, and now perhaps Baha’is too! What d’ya think?

My comment:

I’ve also noted that following the will of God or submitting to it is at the heart of being a Muslim, of course submission to God’s will would be the common denominator of the great Prophets and Messengers… As to attaining to a state of union with God, this would be where we may differ in that being one with God’s will is in a sense a state of union or agreement…but should not be understood in our belief as say union with God meaning we have achieved say the station of God. Our ultimate aim in the Baha’i view would be to be in the presence of God rather than one with Him.

Night and day lament and implore, with the utmost supplication and humility, before the Threshold of the Presence of the One God, that thou mayest be strengthened to guide people with all steadfastness on this path and take a plenteous share from this Most Great Sea.

(Abdu’l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha v2, p. 446)

Vouthon wrote:

They are beautifully written, if you don’t mind me saying. Very poetic and full of thought-provoking imagery, although I imagine they are translations, right? From Persian or Arabic? So kudos to the translator as well, as I know its tough to translate sacred texts from one language to another whilst retaining the beauty of the original syntax, which doesn’t always carry as well into English…

My comment:

Shoghi Effendi translated many of the Writings of Baha’u’llah, the Bab and Abdul-Baha from Farsi and Arabic… He was the acknowledged translator and interpreter of the Writings… Currently the Universal House of Justice has commissioned translations of additional Tablets using as close a procedure as that used by Shoghi Effendi as possible.

Vouthon wrote:

Certainly if the Baha’i Writings are teaching such a form of spiritual baptism through following the Words of God as divinely expressed through the ordinances, laws and precepts of the Baha’i Revelation, then I would say that they are a good means of guiding the followers of your religion on the path of salvation towards Jesus Christ, although it is still (from our perspective) of lesser potency than the direct and only true *Way *to Christ through bodily membership in his own Body, Holy Mother Church. But it is reassuring nonetheless. Baha’is are clearly on the Way to Christ even with the regrettable lack of explicit knowledge which you possess of Chrit’s true Divine Nature as the Incarnation of God the Son - in Essence as opposed to mere reflection.

My comment:

I think you have a good intention and I applaud your sincerity… I would also offer in all sincerity to you that for Baha’is we feel that the prophesied return of Christ has already occurred and the explicit knowledge we have received is through the revelation of Baha’u’llah and the Bab. As to an incarnation of God we would reject this doctrine:

*So crude and fantastic a theory of Divine incarnation is as removed from, and incompatible with, the essentials of Bahá’í belief as are the no less inadmissible pantheistic and anthropomorphic conceptions of God – both of which the utterances of Bahá’u’lláh emphatically repudiate and the fallacy of which they expose. - *Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 112
 
Addenda…

Vouthon wrote:

The first quote you kindly provided from Abdu’l-Baha is most interesting. This man is highly praised by a Catholic document on your religion that was produced by the Bishops Conference of England and Wales. I’m quite sure you’ve probably read it, since quite a few of the Baha’is that I’ve conversed with online before have read it. The quote from Abdu’l-Baha implies that there is a baptism, distinguished from formal Water Baptism that admits one physically and corporeally into the Body of the Church and is the normal means of receiving this sacrament, which consists of adhering too, “the divine teachings and the exhortations of the Beauty of Abha”.

My comment:

Thanks for your post…It’s been awhile so I don’t recall off hand having read document by the Bishop’s Conference but if you’d cite it I’d welcome that… I think I would add a word of caution here that my reference to spiritual baptism is not as such a sacrament or shall I say a formal doctrine we use… It’s a comment Abdul-Baha made…You may know that rituals are at a minimum in the Faith and we have no sacerdotal orders.

All these divisions we see on all sides, all these disputes and opposition, are caused because men cling to ritual and outward observances, and forget the simple, underlying truth. It is the outward practices of religion that are so different, and it is they that cause disputes and enmity – while the reality is always the same, and one.

(Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 120)

Vouthon wrote:

the sacred books of other religions, which in actual fact direct and nourish the existence of their followers, receive from the mystery of Christ the elements of goodness and grace which they contain (I, 8).

My comment:

That’s reassuring… I think we would agree that the sacred books are inspired and contain truths, guidance…as to accuracy that may be more or less depending.

Vouthoin wrote:

Since Baha’is “acknowledge the Creator” you are thereby according to Catholic doctrine expressly part of “the plan of salvation”. How and what purpose God has for adherents to your faith and others, is not expressly - as yet - defined by the Magisterium, I suppose given that the Baha’i Faith was not widely known in 1960, when the Church defined its relationship to Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism in particular, and implicitly all other religions through the phrase “religions found everywhere”.

My comment:

Thanks for your posts…! The Baha’i Faith has been widely known I would say internationally well before 1960. Here are some appreciations of the Baha’i Faith that may be less known mostly prior to 1960…

bahai-library.com/books/appreciations.html
 
:rolleyes:How can arthra be spiritually baptised into the Church when he denies the divinity of Christ?
 
Ok, well first of all, the Baha’is are not directly answering important questions asked by the Catholics.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top