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tritcher1988
Guest
Also, how can the Bahai faith teach a “spiritual baptism” when they deny the divinity of Christ?
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tritcher1988
Guest
Also, I do not understand how the Baha’is can teach “spiritual baptism” when they do not acknowledge Christ’s divinity.
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arthra
Guest
Thanks for your post tritcher…
Here’s what Abdul-Baha referred to:
*The performance of baptismal celebration would cleanse the body, but the spirit hath no share; but the divine teachings and the exhortations of the Beauty of ABHA will baptize the soul. This is the real baptism. I hope that thou wilt receive this baptism. 328 *
(Abdu’l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha v2, p. 327)
So, in the Koran it is said, “and we have caused a pure water to descend from heaven;” and in the Gospel, “Except a man hath received the baptism of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” Then it is evident that the divine teachings are the heavenly grace and the showers of the mercy of God, which purify the hearts of men.
(Abdu’l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha v3, p. 580)
Christ’s divinity is also acknowledged by Baha’is…but we do not believe God was physically incarnated in Him. See my references above to the Manifestation of God!
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SteveVH
Guest
This only underscores Abdul-Baha’s ignorance in understanding Christian baptism, or his purposeful misrepresentation. The outer, physical sign (cleansing with water) signifies the deeper spiritual reality of the cleansing of the soul by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; God himself. It was Christ who commanded his disciples to baptize in this manner and historical records of the Church are evidence of this understanding throughout its history. Again, it seems as if what Christ and his Church really teach is ignored and replaced by the ideas of men who would have others instead follow them. In this case Abdul-Baha is speaking directly against what Christ commanded. Does he really think that as Christians we intend no more than to cleanse the body? He implies that we have been duped by practising what we have been taught by Jesus himself.
Again, Christ’s words “Except a man hath received the baptism of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” are either misinterpreted or not understood. How does being baptized by “water and the spirit” translate into the divine teachings? Christ was speaking of the Spirit of God; a divine Person, not a divine teaching. Abdul-Baha completely omitts speaking of the fundamental reason that we are to be baptized and that is the cleansing of our souls from the stain of sin.
With all due respect I have already read through your references to the “Manifistation of God” and the answers are not to be found there. Please explain how Christ is divne? Abdul-Baha lumps him in with Moses and Abraham. They were not divne and never claimed to be. Christ claimed to be God himself. Christ is the one, true God who became flesh and dwelt among men. He is not a man who was possessed by God. There is only one divine being; God. To say that you acknowledge Christ’s divinity and at the same time reject that he is God seems nonsensical. How is Christ divine if he is not God?Christ’s divinity is also acknowledged by Baha’is…but we do not believe God was physically incarnated in Him. See my references above to the Manifestation of God!
Also, while I appreciate your references in order to explain the Bahai faith, I wonder if you might just tell us what you believe by answering these questions in your own words. To keep referring to Abdul-Baha’s quotes we seem to continue in circles. What is your personal understanding in response to the questions I and others have asked?
Thank you.
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arthra
Guest
Thanks Steve,
I’m really not here to argue with you about your post…I know from your previous posts that you already have your own views.
You asked:
“How is Christ divine …(?)”
We view Christ as divine because He perfectly reflected the attributes of God to humanity…
He didn’t have to work at it or polish the mirror of His heart to do so…
The rest of us have to work at it…and I have to work at it during my berief stint of existence here on this earth.
Here is an excerpt that may help you understand how we see Christ as divine:
In the Word of God there is still another unity, the oneness of the Manifestations of God, His Holiness Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. This is a unity divine, heavenly, radiant, merciful; the one reality appearing in its successive manifestations. For instance, the sun is one and the same but its points of dawning are various.
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 258
We do not say the Mirror is God or that Christ is God…rather that the attributes of God were perfectly relfected in Him:
The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality – that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes – became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied – for the Sun is one – but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 113
We refer to Abdul-Baha because He was the authorized Interpreter of His Father’s Message.
God bless you Steve and have a great day!
I’m really not here to argue with you about your post…I know from your previous posts that you already have your own views.
You asked:
“How is Christ divine …(?)”
We view Christ as divine because He perfectly reflected the attributes of God to humanity…
He didn’t have to work at it or polish the mirror of His heart to do so…
The rest of us have to work at it…and I have to work at it during my berief stint of existence here on this earth.
Here is an excerpt that may help you understand how we see Christ as divine:
In the Word of God there is still another unity, the oneness of the Manifestations of God, His Holiness Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. This is a unity divine, heavenly, radiant, merciful; the one reality appearing in its successive manifestations. For instance, the sun is one and the same but its points of dawning are various.
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 258
We do not say the Mirror is God or that Christ is God…rather that the attributes of God were perfectly relfected in Him:
The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality – that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes – became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied – for the Sun is one – but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 113
We refer to Abdul-Baha because He was the authorized Interpreter of His Father’s Message.
God bless you Steve and have a great day!
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tritcher1988
Guest
Thank you Mr. arthra for your response: I have some additional thoughts: Arthra, I see you making lengthy affirmations of Bahai, yet you maintain that “you are not here to argue”: Why do you resist debate? In the previous post, you appear to be defending the validity of the Bahai “spiritual baptism” by claiming that:
These are Abdul-Baha’s teachings: Christ and his church teach that Christ is not merely a person reflecting god’s attributes, but that he *is *god himself in the fullest sense. I am sure the Church would agree in that any sort of “spiritual baptism” that does not recognize the complete divinity of Christ is invalid.
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arthra
Guest
Tritcher thanks for your post,
Yes I understand your view that Christ is God and that is a Catholic teaching and as you know by now that is not what we believe.
To quote myself again:
“We, the Bahai’s, view Christ as divine because He perfectly reflected the attributes of God to humanity.”
Christ would be as a Mediator between God and the creation…
In response to Vouthon raising the issue of spiritual baptism I had offered what was mentioned by Abdul-Baha on the subject. See my post #49 above on this thread.
.We don’t have a view of it as a you probably do as an institutionalized rite or sacrament.
The problem with debate and argumentation is that it often becomes acrimonius and attacks people and their beliefs and I’ve been around enough of these forums to see plenty of it… Contention and conflict are actually forbidden for Baha’is.
May God bless you Tritcher!
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tritcher1988
Guest
Well, good to know. Debating has helped me to strengthen my beliefs. I wonder about this Abdul-Baha and how it is that he can speak over the authority of Jesus.
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arthra
Guest
Thanks for your post Tritcher!
*“I wonder about this Abdul-Baha…” *
I can tell you some things about Abdul-Baha … His actual name was Abbas Effendi and assumed the name Abdul-Baha because He wanted people to know He was servant of the Glory of God.
Abdul-Baha was the eldest Son of Baha’u’llah and He was the designated Interpretor of His Father’s Message… Abdul-Baha was actually a very humble person who was imprisoned some forty years with His Father. He was long suffering and endured many deprivations.
You can learn more about Him at
bahai.org/dir/abdulbaha
Wkipedia has a pretty complete biography:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%60Abdu%27l-Bah%C3%A1
God bless you Tritcher and have a good week!
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tritcher1988
Guest
Well who imprisoned him and what for? I am less interested in visiting your links than I am in reading about it in your own writing.
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SteveVH
Guest
Arthra, I am not here for the purpose of simply arguing for arguments sake. You are on a Catholic forum and your faith tradition claims to incorporate Jesus Christ as one of its prophets, or “Manifistations of God”. What that says to me is that you profess to follow Jesus in some manner. I am simply pointing out some obvious discrepancies in what Jesus himself claimed regarding his identity and purpose, according to the Christian record of his life; the Scriptures and the Tradition of the Church which he, himself founded. I am not aware of any other credible source by which one can gather information concerning Him.
My point is that what is recorded about his life and his identitly as the Son of God has been either ignored or misrepresented by the founders of your faith. My question his how do you reconcile this fact and what does it say about the legitimacy of your beliefs? This has little or nothing to do with my personal views or opinions. I am speaking of the record of Jesus’ life as put down by the witnesses to his life; what he said and claimed about himself in comparison to the claims made by the founders of your faith.
One would be remise, indeed, to make claims about Muhammed or Buddha that conflict with the record of their lives and beliefs as found within the very religions which adhere to their teachings. In other words, I would never say that those who follow Islam are in error as to what Muhammed taught or claimed to be. I am simply faced with believing, or not, who he claimed to be and what he taught. Just so, one is faced with either believing what Jesus said and claimed to be according to the record of his life, or not. To change this record without any objective, credible source of information to the contrary is simply unreasonable or dishonest and lacks any degree of credibility. If one wishes to know about Buddha it must based upon a true record of his life and teachings. If one wishes to know about Jesus Christ should not the same criteria apply? Christ did not claim to be a “Manifestation of God”, he claimed to be God himself. You are faced with either believing that or not.
I hope you see my point.
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Holly3278
Guest
I am not sure if I have ever talked with a member of the Baha’i faith before. I have talked to people from many different religions but I am not sure about this one.
That said, I believe that the Baha’i faith is a false religion. They deny the divinity of Jesus Christ.
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel-- not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
(Galatians 1:6-9 RSV-CE)
To me, this is the Apostle Paul telling us not to accept any other Gospel than that which they preached to us. So, to me, Saint Paul is telling us that the Gospel of Jesus Christ which was given to the Catholic Church is the true and final religion. There will be no more revelations from God as the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the final religion for us as is found in the Catholic Church.
That said as well, Bahá’u’lláh, who was the founder of the Baha’i faith could be considered accursed since he preached another Gospel than the one that Jesus Christ preached and gave to us.
That said, I believe that the Baha’i faith is a false religion. They deny the divinity of Jesus Christ.
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel-- not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
(Galatians 1:6-9 RSV-CE)
To me, this is the Apostle Paul telling us not to accept any other Gospel than that which they preached to us. So, to me, Saint Paul is telling us that the Gospel of Jesus Christ which was given to the Catholic Church is the true and final religion. There will be no more revelations from God as the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the final religion for us as is found in the Catholic Church.
That said as well, Bahá’u’lláh, who was the founder of the Baha’i faith could be considered accursed since he preached another Gospel than the one that Jesus Christ preached and gave to us.
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arthra
Guest
Tritcher,
Thanks for your post!
Here are my own words!.. I’d suggest you check out what I’ve written to you with the wikipedia article for greater accuracy!
Back in the around 1844 in Shiraz Persia a young man named Siyyid Ali Muhammad announced the He was Promised One and the fulfillment of prophecies about the expected Mahdi and Qa’im … there was a movement in Iran and Iraq at that time that was looking for the time when the prophecies would be fulfileld…
Siyyid Ali Muhammad also had the title of Bab or Gate and He began revealing verses expaklining the Qur’an and answering the questions people had at the time…
His first disciples were people tha t cam to Him unsought…by visions and dreams they come to accept Him…Thousands accepted the Bab and many were martyred in the early years …some twenty thousand people.
The clerical (Mullahs) establishment attempted to isolate Him and have Him imprisoned…
After six years He was martyred after a mock trial… Baha’u’llah was one of His followers at that time… The Bab had left several references that His own dispensation would be succeded by Him Whom God would make manifest…
In 1854 an abortive attempt was made on the life of the Shah by two crazed followers of the Bab… The Shah was slightly wounded. The two crazed assassins were immediately arrested and summarily executed but the Shah ordered all the remaining followers of the Bab to be arrested, detaiined and many were also executed… Baha’u’llah turned Himself in and was imprisoned awaiting execution… On the advice of the Russian Counsel the Shah agreed to exile Baha’u’llah to Bagdad. After Bagdad the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire summoned Him to Constantinople and later confined Him to Akka.
In those days families were also in exile or imprisoned with the prisoners… Abdul-Baha began a life of imprisonment and exile with His Father… Imprisonment was also supposed to be for life in the prison city of Akka … today near Haifa, Israel… there’s much more but that answers your question in my own words!
God bless you tritcher!
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arthra
Guest
Holly wrote:
I am not sure if I have ever talked with a member of the Baha’i faith before. I have talked to people from many different religions but I am not sure about this one.
Thanks for your post Holly… I trust that there maybe some posts on this thread that will help explain more for you.
May God bless you!
I am not sure if I have ever talked with a member of the Baha’i faith before. I have talked to people from many different religions but I am not sure about this one.
Thanks for your post Holly… I trust that there maybe some posts on this thread that will help explain more for you.
May God bless you!
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arthra
Guest
Thanks Steve for your post… Yes I think we’ve covered the subject already.
God’s blessings!
God’s blessings!
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tritcher1988
Guest
Well that is some interesting history. So the early Baha’is claimed to fulfill ‘prophesies’ from the Quaran, and began teaching and interperating outside of the Muslim tradition. This upset the Muslim leadership who then began to move against the early Baha’is with violence. I wonder, did the early ‘disciples’ of Bahai respond with violence against the Muslim leadership? And how did this Abdul-Baha escape from his prison in Akka?
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SteveVH
Guest
The Jesus you speak of is not a manisfestation of God, but rather a manifestation of human imagination, contrived for the purpose of leading people away from the true God. I would suggest that you read the true account of Jesus life, his teachings, his miracles, his claim to be the one, true God. You say that we have covered the subject already, yet you refuse to address the conflicts that have been brought to your attention. That subject has not been covered in the least, rather it has been side stepped with various quotes which keep repeating the very principles which cause the question to be asked in the first place.
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arthra
Guest
Tritcher,
I should add that as Baha’is we believe that along with the prophecies of the Mahdi that were fulfilled we would say the prophecies of the return of Christ were also fulfilled.
Those are greart questions…
The early followers of the Bab defended their Faith when attacked…however Baha’u’llah later abrogated this law… called Jihad or Holy War when He announced that He fulfilled the promise of the Bab concerning “Him Whom God would make manifest”. So the Baha’is refused to use force to defend their religion…Holy War or Jihad was erased from the Book!
Abdul-Baha didn’t “escape” from prison…eventually He was allowed to live in a “house arrest” kind of situation outside the walls and later after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the fall of the Sultan He was free to go where ever…
Have a great day!
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arthra
Guest
Steve…The Jesus you speak of is not a manisfestation of God, but rather a manifestation of human imagination, contrived for the purpose of leading people away from the true God. I would suggest that you read the true account of Jesus life, his teachings, his miracles, his claim to be the one, true God. You say that we have covered the subject already, yet you refuse to address the conflicts that have been brought to your attention. That subject has not been covered in the least, rather it has been side stepped with various quotes which keep repeating the very principles which cause the question to be asked in the first place.
Are you questioning my sincerety?
You understand that I’m not allowed to proselytize on this forum and you seem to want me to argue with you… All I can do is provide some information here …my purpose is not to try to convert you…
I hope you can understand where I’m coming from on this…
God bless you Steve!
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