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PRmerger
Guest
It is a mistake to look at the behavior of those who do not follow the teachings as an example of the teachings, yes?
- Status
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Vouthon
Guest
The Church freely admits that Susan and Blessed Pope John Paul II made many public apologies in that regard:
Likewise in the Vatican II document “Unitatis Redintegratio” promulgated in 1965 we read:
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Vouthon
Guest
The point I think that the PRmerger is making though is the church always taught that forced baptism of non-Christians was immoral. There were many Christians who disobeyed this doctrine and even clergy, including at the highest levels, I am sure.
However the “deposit of faith” remains unchanged despite the moral corruption of such individuals and that doctrine was expressed by Blessed Pope Gregory and Pope Leo XIII:
However the “deposit of faith” remains unchanged despite the moral corruption of such individuals and that doctrine was expressed by Blessed Pope Gregory and Pope Leo XIII:
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PRmerger
Guest
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draco_cupri
Guest
That is an interesting view, albeit almost certainly and somewhat obviously an oversimplification. The attempt is made here to draw an analogy on the paradigm of a mathematical proportion, like A:B::C
. The problem, however, is that the terms of the first fraction and the terms of the second also have a relation to each other, and this fact is glossed over in the expression of the analogy.Baha’i:Islam::Christianity:Judaism ignores the fact that Baha’i and Islam both have a direct relationship to ancient (Pre-Gospel) Judaism.
All four faiths are monotheistic, and all four faiths believe not only in One God, but specifically in the God of Abraham. Isaac and Ishmael were both sons of Abraham, and Judaism comes through the lineage of Isaac, while Islam comes through the lineage of Ishmael. Christianity is purportedly the fulfillment of the Judaism and Baha’i is purportedly the fulfillment of Islam. So insofar as all I have said in this paragraph, the analogy holds quite nicely.
However, it becomes more complicated when we consider the chronology of the streams. Islam per se does not specifically deny the religion of Moses, rather, it sees itself as the purification of that stream, and sees Jesus as a reformer of that selfsame stream. Islam also holds Mohammad to be the “Seal of the Prophets,” so it is a little difficult to see how traditional Islam can account for both Baha’u’llah and the Bab. The Bab is to Baha’u’llah as Saint John the Baptist is to Jesus. One can perhaps say that Moses is to Judaism as Mohammad is to Islam. But the main point of contention among all these faiths would appear to be the differing viewpoints on diverging and converging streams.
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draco_cupri
Guest
The original stream of religion in general came from Adam. On that, all are agreed. Of interest, perhaps, will be other streams not included in these four, for example the Hindus and the Sikhs. But we can put those aside for another time. I point it out only to make clear that even if we begin from Abraham, we are not yet including the entirety of religious experience of the whole human race, the children of Adam. There are other streams that we will need to take into account, to do that.
From Abraham, the Father of Faith, came the early religion of the Hebrews, and also the Arabs. Ishmael was a circumcised son of Abraham, and he passed on to his children the worship of the One God, whom the children of Ishmael came to know as Allah. Then came Moses, who formalized the early Hebrew religion into what we know as ancient Judaism. Then came the Messiah, the Savior of the World. Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, and established His Church, which came to be known as the religious stream of Christianity. He sent the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost, as recorded in the Book of Acts. The Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church into the full remembrance of everything Jesus taught, and to the establishment of God’s Church on Earth. The Doctrine of the Holy Trinity, is somewhat esoteric. Although it can be and is explained to the merest of children, yet some who are more sophisticated in their thoughts and thus less open to simplicity, do not understand it. Mohammad made the error of assuming that the Christians were worshiping three gods, as opposed to One. Wishing to unite the warring tribes of Arabia, he desired to bring them a religion that would unite them, and correct what he (erroneously) perceived as the errors of the Christians. So he brought them Islam, proclaiming that there is but one God, and no one (not even Jesus) is associated with Him. It can easily be seen that Mohammad, since he rejected the notion of the Trinity, thereby rejected the Divinity of the Third Person of the Trinity, namely the Holy Spirit. Even though the Trinity is easily explicable to any Muslim as Allah, Allah’s Word, and Allah’s Spirit, all of which are Allah, Muhammad did not grasp this and so created Islam which has been a cause of division.
Many years later, came the Bab, who foretold one to come after him, whom the Baha’i recognize as Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah taught that religion should never be the cause of divisions among men, that it should instead unite them; that humanity is One, that God is One, and that religion is One. These are incontrovertibly sound principles, but Baha’u’llah also made some errors. He proclaimed himself to be the Comforter that Jesus had promised, the Paraclete. This is false, since the Paraclete already came, He being the Holy Spirit who descended on the infant Church at Pentecost. So while Baha’u’llah was of the highest caliber as a man and as a religious reformer, he did not in fact bring the final religion, nor was he in fact the universal Key to even his Age. He did not in fact, as earlier alluded, include the Hindu stream. The series of Ten Gurus beginning with Nanak Dev produced the religion known to us as Sikh, which is the confluence, the joining, of the streams of Hinduism and Islam. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was to Hinduism and Krishna as Jesus was to Judaism and Moses and Baha’u’llah was to Islam and Muhammad. There are streams of religious thought, and there are the Magi of those streams, and there are Syntheses.
It is a curious fact about Catholicism that the Synthesis of any religious stream with Catholicism comes out in the end to be Catholicism again. This religion of LOVE that I practice and espouse is none other than Catholicism, but it is Catholicism synthesized with all the religious streams that have come before it, and therefore it is Complete. There is no further synthesis to be made. It is all already done. What only remains now, is for humanity to overcome its own self-imposed divisions. As Robert Marley wrote, “Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds!”
From Abraham, the Father of Faith, came the early religion of the Hebrews, and also the Arabs. Ishmael was a circumcised son of Abraham, and he passed on to his children the worship of the One God, whom the children of Ishmael came to know as Allah. Then came Moses, who formalized the early Hebrew religion into what we know as ancient Judaism. Then came the Messiah, the Savior of the World. Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, and established His Church, which came to be known as the religious stream of Christianity. He sent the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost, as recorded in the Book of Acts. The Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church into the full remembrance of everything Jesus taught, and to the establishment of God’s Church on Earth. The Doctrine of the Holy Trinity, is somewhat esoteric. Although it can be and is explained to the merest of children, yet some who are more sophisticated in their thoughts and thus less open to simplicity, do not understand it. Mohammad made the error of assuming that the Christians were worshiping three gods, as opposed to One. Wishing to unite the warring tribes of Arabia, he desired to bring them a religion that would unite them, and correct what he (erroneously) perceived as the errors of the Christians. So he brought them Islam, proclaiming that there is but one God, and no one (not even Jesus) is associated with Him. It can easily be seen that Mohammad, since he rejected the notion of the Trinity, thereby rejected the Divinity of the Third Person of the Trinity, namely the Holy Spirit. Even though the Trinity is easily explicable to any Muslim as Allah, Allah’s Word, and Allah’s Spirit, all of which are Allah, Muhammad did not grasp this and so created Islam which has been a cause of division.
Many years later, came the Bab, who foretold one to come after him, whom the Baha’i recognize as Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah taught that religion should never be the cause of divisions among men, that it should instead unite them; that humanity is One, that God is One, and that religion is One. These are incontrovertibly sound principles, but Baha’u’llah also made some errors. He proclaimed himself to be the Comforter that Jesus had promised, the Paraclete. This is false, since the Paraclete already came, He being the Holy Spirit who descended on the infant Church at Pentecost. So while Baha’u’llah was of the highest caliber as a man and as a religious reformer, he did not in fact bring the final religion, nor was he in fact the universal Key to even his Age. He did not in fact, as earlier alluded, include the Hindu stream. The series of Ten Gurus beginning with Nanak Dev produced the religion known to us as Sikh, which is the confluence, the joining, of the streams of Hinduism and Islam. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was to Hinduism and Krishna as Jesus was to Judaism and Moses and Baha’u’llah was to Islam and Muhammad. There are streams of religious thought, and there are the Magi of those streams, and there are Syntheses.
It is a curious fact about Catholicism that the Synthesis of any religious stream with Catholicism comes out in the end to be Catholicism again. This religion of LOVE that I practice and espouse is none other than Catholicism, but it is Catholicism synthesized with all the religious streams that have come before it, and therefore it is Complete. There is no further synthesis to be made. It is all already done. What only remains now, is for humanity to overcome its own self-imposed divisions. As Robert Marley wrote, “Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds!”
Would you care to expand or expound on that, and in particular, if not physical, what possibly could a resurrection be?
Respectfully, I disagree on this point with my Brother Mage. It is now possible, in this New Aeon, to profitably discern the wonderful variations in all the manifestations of His Wisdom that God has given through all the Magi in history. Every founder of every religious stream, save Christianity, has been a Mage. Mary was to my knowledge the only Woman to have this title, and she obtained from God, the Word made Flesh.
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draco_cupri
Guest
Respectfully, Ron, you seem rather cynical about God’s power to manifest the Truth. While I can understand Catholics feeling that way, seeing that Catholicism has been around for two thousand years and has yet to convert the whole world, it is a little more surprising coming from a Baha’i. Baha’u’llah himself did not proclaim his transmission to be the last, correct? But rather that God would continue to reveal more of the Mystery for all eternity. I also hold that to be the case. But divisions and disagreements over basic truths, those seem to me to be relics of a bygone age of war. I see now as the Dawn of t a Glorious New Era of Peace. I see the various streams of religious truth known to humanity converging now into one, the way that Baha’u’llah saw it, but with more of the benefit of awareness of much that Baha’u’llah simply did not have access to. I see no reason for cynicism or pessimism in any of this, but rather, I am filled with hope to the degree that I am filled with love, which is increasing in me on a daily basis.
Peace, brother! May the God of Light lead you into the Fullness of Light, which is the Fullness of Love! Amen!
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arthra
Guest
Draco wrote:
Islam also holds Mohammad to be the “Seal of the Prophets,” so it is a little difficult to see how traditional Islam can account for both Baha’u’llah and the Bab.
It’s true most Muslims today regard Muhammad as the last prophet however in the mileaux of Shiah Islam there was a kind of messianic expectation concerning the Mahdi and the Return of the Twelfth Imam and it was from this expectation I feel that the Faith was born.
Baha’u’llah described the former age as an age of prophecy and the new age was an age of fulfillment. Also there’s an interesting article you may find of interest at:
bahai-library.com/hakim_seal_prophets
Draco wrote:
Baha’u’llah also made some errors. He proclaimed himself to be the Comforter that Jesus had promised, the Paraclete. This is false, since the Paraclete already came, He being the Holy Spirit who descended on the infant Church at Pentecost. So while Baha’u’llah was of the highest caliber as a man and as a religious reformer, he did not in fact bring the final religion, nor was he in fact the universal Key to even his Age.
Here’s what Baha’is believe about that and in re. the Paraclete:
His Holiness Abraham, on Him be peace, made a covenant concerning His Holiness Moses and gave the glad-tidings of His coming. His Holiness Moses made a covenant concerning the Promised One, i.e. His Holiness Christ, and announced the good news of His Manifestation to the world. His Holiness Christ made a covenant concerning the Paraclete and gave the tidings of His coming. His Holiness the Prophet Muhammad made a covenant concerning His Holiness the Báb and the Báb was the One promised by Muhammad, for Muhammad gave the tidings of His coming. The Báb made a Covenant concerning the Blessed Beauty of Bahá’u’lláh and gave the glad-tidings of His coming for the Blessed Beauty was the One promised by His Holiness the Báb. Bahá’u’lláh made a covenant concerning a promised One who will become manifest after one thousand or thousands of years.
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 358
also:
Biblical References to Muhammad and 'Ali
"References in the Bible to ‘Mt. Paran’ and ‘Paraclete’ refer to Muhammad’s Revelation: Deuteronomy 33:2, Genesis 21:21, Numbers 12:16, Numbers 13:3. Genesis 17:20 refers to the twelve Imams and in the Revelation of St. John,chapter 11, where it mentions two witnesses, it refers to Muhammad and "Ali.
“The figures 1290 date from the declaration of Muhammad, ten years before His flight to Medina.”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of Australia and New Zealand, December 26, 1941)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 494)
Islam also holds Mohammad to be the “Seal of the Prophets,” so it is a little difficult to see how traditional Islam can account for both Baha’u’llah and the Bab.
It’s true most Muslims today regard Muhammad as the last prophet however in the mileaux of Shiah Islam there was a kind of messianic expectation concerning the Mahdi and the Return of the Twelfth Imam and it was from this expectation I feel that the Faith was born.
Baha’u’llah described the former age as an age of prophecy and the new age was an age of fulfillment. Also there’s an interesting article you may find of interest at:
bahai-library.com/hakim_seal_prophets
Draco wrote:
Baha’u’llah also made some errors. He proclaimed himself to be the Comforter that Jesus had promised, the Paraclete. This is false, since the Paraclete already came, He being the Holy Spirit who descended on the infant Church at Pentecost. So while Baha’u’llah was of the highest caliber as a man and as a religious reformer, he did not in fact bring the final religion, nor was he in fact the universal Key to even his Age.
Here’s what Baha’is believe about that and in re. the Paraclete:
His Holiness Abraham, on Him be peace, made a covenant concerning His Holiness Moses and gave the glad-tidings of His coming. His Holiness Moses made a covenant concerning the Promised One, i.e. His Holiness Christ, and announced the good news of His Manifestation to the world. His Holiness Christ made a covenant concerning the Paraclete and gave the tidings of His coming. His Holiness the Prophet Muhammad made a covenant concerning His Holiness the Báb and the Báb was the One promised by Muhammad, for Muhammad gave the tidings of His coming. The Báb made a Covenant concerning the Blessed Beauty of Bahá’u’lláh and gave the glad-tidings of His coming for the Blessed Beauty was the One promised by His Holiness the Báb. Bahá’u’lláh made a covenant concerning a promised One who will become manifest after one thousand or thousands of years.
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 358
also:
Biblical References to Muhammad and 'Ali
"References in the Bible to ‘Mt. Paran’ and ‘Paraclete’ refer to Muhammad’s Revelation: Deuteronomy 33:2, Genesis 21:21, Numbers 12:16, Numbers 13:3. Genesis 17:20 refers to the twelve Imams and in the Revelation of St. John,chapter 11, where it mentions two witnesses, it refers to Muhammad and "Ali.
“The figures 1290 date from the declaration of Muhammad, ten years before His flight to Medina.”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of Australia and New Zealand, December 26, 1941)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 494)
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smaneck
Guest
Well, I certainly would not want to judge Islam on the basis of Bin Laden, but here we are talking about how much coercion was involved in the conversion of a greater part of the Christian world, not simply the actions on the part of a few retrogrades. The justification for using coercion in regards to Christianity was articulated by Saint Augustine who used Luke 14:23 (And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.) Now granted, St. Augustine was using this passage against the Donatists who he regarded as heretics, but it doesn’t change the principle he was applying. Charlemagne will later use this same passage to forcibly convert the Saxons to Christianity. The subjugation of the Americas was justified in terms of bringing them to the ‘truth’ of Christianity.
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smaneck
Guest
It never ceases to amaze me, Vouthon, how quickly you manage to find the appropriate sources. I’ll bet you make your professors proud. Can I clone you for my classes?
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Vouthon
Guest
LOLIt never ceases to amaze me, Vouthon, how quickly you manage to find the appropriate sources. I’ll bet you make your professors proud. Can I clone you for my classes?
Thank you Susan
Well, it sure comes in handy when I’m writing essays, lets put it that way
Which reminds me I have one to hand in on monday and have still do the bibliography and referencing for it (its on Chartism, I study Law and History).
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PRmerger
Guest
Perhaps it would help if you could proffer the teachings from the Magisterium that advocate(d) coercion.
Also, I am interested in the text of St. Augustine to which you are referring. Could you please offer a citation? Thanks.
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smaneck
Guest
That’s not exactly how Baha’is see it. We believe Revelation is progressive, not in trying to return to some early pristine religion. Obviously submission (the meaning of Islam) is in some ways God’s eternal religion but that doesn’t mean God didn’t intend for religion to change in accordance with the needs of the age.
Obviously, they can’t anymore than Jews can account for Jesus as the Messiah. However, the phrase ‘Seal of the Prophets’ did not originally mean that there would be no revelation after Muhammad. There is a hadith where Aisha stated ‘Say [that the Prophet is]
the Seal of the Prophets (khatam alnabiyyin) but do not say that there is no prophet after Him (la nabiyya ba’dahu)’"
Islam, like Judaism had Messianic hopes and expect the appearance of the Mahdi or rightly guided one who will fill the world with righteousness after it has been filled with iniquity. For Baha’is the Bab fulfills that prophecy.
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smaneck
Guest
Sure:
“Why therefore should not the Church use force in compelling her lost sons to return?..The Lord Himself said, “Go out into the highways and hedges and compel them to come in…” Wherefore is the power which the Church has received through the religious character and faith of kings the instrument by which those who are found in the highways and hedges - that is, in heresies and schisms - are compelled to come in, and let them not find fault with being compelled.”
Augustine, De Correctione Donatistarum, 23-24.
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PRmerger
Guest
Ah, very good, then. Thanks.
Now for the Magisterial teachings that advocate coercion.
Incidentally, if St Augustine was indeed advocating use of force in evangelization then he was simply wrong in this pursuit. However, I hesitate to object fully to his claim as I have not read the text in its context, and you yourself have maintained that his writings address a specific heretical group, the Donatists.
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smaneck
Guest
Obviously the Qur’an objects to certain Christian dogmas but I don’t think correcting Christianity was very high on his list of priorities. Uniting the Arabs under the worship of the one true God was. Having insisted that God could not have had three daughters as the Arabs believed he wasn’t going to compromise with the notion that God had a son (though he did except the virgin birth.)
I would refer to what Paul says in Corinthians:
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
A Magi is a Zoroastrian priest but I’m sensing you have a different definition in mind.
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draco_cupri
Guest
Thank you for your kind responses. Respectfully, arthra, I have a few questions.Draco wrote:
Islam also holds Mohammad to be the “Seal of the Prophets,” so it is a little difficult to see how traditional Islam can account for both Baha’u’llah and the Bab.
It’s true most Muslims today regard Muhammad as the last prophet however in the mileaux of Shiah Islam there was a kind of messianic expectation concerning the Mahdi and the Return of the Twelfth Imam and it was from this expectation I feel that the Faith was born.
Baha’u’llah described the former age as an age of prophecy and the new age was an age of fulfillment. Also there’s an interesting article you may find of interest at:
bahai-library.com/hakim_seal_prophets
Draco wrote:
Baha’u’llah also made some errors. He proclaimed himself to be the Comforter that Jesus had promised, the Paraclete. This is false, since the Paraclete already came, He being the Holy Spirit who descended on the infant Church at Pentecost. So while Baha’u’llah was of the highest caliber as a man and as a religious reformer, he did not in fact bring the final religion, nor was he in fact the universal Key to even his Age.
Here’s what Baha’is believe about that and in re. the Paraclete:
His Holiness Abraham, on Him be peace, made a covenant concerning His Holiness Moses and gave the glad-tidings of His coming. His Holiness Moses made a covenant concerning the Promised One, i.e. His Holiness Christ, and announced the good news of His Manifestation to the world. His Holiness Christ made a covenant concerning the Paraclete and gave the tidings of His coming. His Holiness the Prophet Muhammad made a covenant concerning His Holiness the Báb and the Báb was the One promised by Muhammad, for Muhammad gave the tidings of His coming. The Báb made a Covenant concerning the Blessed Beauty of Bahá’u’lláh and gave the glad-tidings of His coming for the Blessed Beauty was the One promised by His Holiness the Báb. Bahá’u’lláh made a covenant concerning a promised One who will become manifest after one thousand or thousands of years.
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 358
also:
Biblical References to Muhammad and 'Ali
"References in the Bible to ‘Mt. Paran’ and ‘Paraclete’ refer to Muhammad’s Revelation: Deuteronomy 33:2, Genesis 21:21, Numbers 12:16, Numbers 13:3. Genesis 17:20 refers to the twelve Imams and in the Revelation of St. John,chapter 11, where it mentions two witnesses, it refers to Muhammad and "Ali.
“The figures 1290 date from the declaration of Muhammad, ten years before His flight to Medina.”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of Australia and New Zealand, December 26, 1941)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 494)
- Who is Abdu’l-Baha, are his writings considered Scriptural by Baha’is, and where does he stand as regards the Authority of his utterances in relation to Mohammad, the Bab, and Baha’u’llah?
- If you would, could you sketch out your belief regarding the relative Authority of those mentioned, in particular as regards their relation to that Entity who appeared in the burning bush to Moses, and to Jesus?
- What is your view of the Authority of Saint John the Baptizer?
- Same question with regard to Krishna, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Guru Nanak Dev and the line of Ten Gurus that began with him?
- Same question with regard to yourself.
- Similar question with regard to the one known as Frater Perdurabo.
- Do you hold that there shall be no further Manifestation, at least in your lifetime?
- If so, on what grounds?
I pledge that I will always respect your path, even when and if we disagree! Peace!
D.C.
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smaneck
Guest
That I don’t know. Which ones advocated the Inquisition?
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PRmerger
Guest
None.
P
PRmerger
Guest
I believe that my friend Vouthon proffered some Magisterial documents that contravene your position that the Church advocated coercion.
I think in the interest of dialogue it is important to distinguish orthodoxy from heteropraxy.
What the Church taught ought not to be confused with how sinful practitioners behaved.
- Status