Contemplating Islam

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planten said:
KathleenGee, Thanks for your response. There were wars in the area between the Romans and the Muslims. The Muslims were advancing. They reached Jerusalem and surrouded the city. For some time there was no progress, no fight. But the Catholics were surrounded and felt that they will have no help from any where.

Their elders knew that there was no way except to surrender. So the Bishops sent message to the commander of Muslim forces that they were willing to open the city if the Caliph came himslef. They would hand over the city to the Caliph only.

The Commander sent the same message to the Caliph Umar. The Caliph Umar in reply told the Commander that was exactly what was needed. He ordered the Commander not to advance or attack the city. It was the Muslims Qiblah (center of worship) too and there was not to be any blood shed there. The Caliph said that he was arriving himself.

So the Caliph rode a camel (one camel) with a servant, turn by turn, from Madinah to Jerusalem. He had ragged clothes ( or clothes with many patches ) on him. When they met the Bishops, the highly superbly dressed Bishops were surprised. They welcomed the Caliph and they demanded safety of many things. It was agreed that a document be written. So a paper was written at wishes of the Catholics, as follows:
  1. No land will be taken away.
  2. All the church items will be sacred and protected.
  3. Life and honor will be protected…
  4. Prayers, prayer books will be protected.
  5. All churches will be safe and protected property.
It is a good list. Everything that the Bishops asked for was granted by the Caliph Umar. The Bishops could not believe it. They doubted the matter. But Caliph Umar signed the document. The Catholics made a final demand, saying that one man is assuring. What happens if Umar dies. Later day Muslims will break the treaty. So they suggested that six senior memebers of the Muslims (Companions of the prophet Muhammad) should also sign the document,

Caliph Umar said he could not force any one to sign. But there were many Companions of the prophet present at the meeting. Six of them came forward and signed on that document. After, that city of Jerusalem was opened and handed over to the Muslims very peacefully, without any blood shed.

There is a bit more to all that, but I hope it should be enough to show that there was no bloodshed at all.

WE do not mind that Jews and Christians should hold control over the city because it is sacred to all of us. But will the Jews and Christians agree to that?? I hope not. There should be no fight now for difference of religion. That chapter should be closed now for ever. There has been enough bloodshed in the name of Allah between different faiths and between faiths (sects) and also now the suicide bombing is taking toll.

We have been against any killing in the name of Allah for a very long time. But people do not listen to us. I challenge any one speaking out against religious wars 120 years ago. Nobody was doing it. Every one was eager to fight in the way of God/Allah. But that was all wrong,illegal, un-islamic, anti-catholic. Mostly, politics was involved in that. It should end completely. Let the people say and preach what they want to do peacefully without abusing or attacking others. Jesus was for peace. So was Muhammad and Moses.

The day the people will understand that love and peace, will be a good day. At present many are full of hatred against others. And Hatred breeds hatred., more hatred. Love will bring peace.
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None of this is true.
 
planten said:
…Thanks for your response. There were wars in the area between the Romans and the Muslims. The Muslims were advancing. They reached Jerusalem and surrouded the city. …
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The Roman Empire ceased to exist around 500 AD, 150 years before Mohammad was born. Even so, what were “peaceful” Muslim forces doing outside the Arabian Peninsula?
 
Again, Planten, it makes no sense for people to hand over the place of their faith’s origin.

There were events happening around them that made this surrender happen. And it is recorded that Jerusalem fell to the conquest of Islam and that once teeming populations of Christianity were destroyed in a 400 year period.

The Islamic world needs to acknowledge what it has done, especially to the Christian world and its codified hatred of the Jews.

I can’t imagine what it is like for a devout Orthodox to see St. Sophia staked down by Islamic pillars. And to know their oldest sons were used as a ‘child tax’ in Bosnia to be handed over to Islam and raised and used for war.

Can we imagine being at peace and seeing St. Peter’s staked by the pillars of Islam, and instead of hearing angelic choirs, hearing instead the employ of a minaret? …of seeing our altars desecrated and removed and turned into empty rooms devoid of sacred images?..and the tombs of our popes and saints…what would happen to them??? In some conquests, the churches were desecrated and used as horse stables.

It is a matter of common humane reciprocity.

I pray to Mary of Fatima for Russia…many are returning to their religious roots…some day it has been said that Russia may be the witness of the greatest adoration to God…and I pray to Mary of Fatima for unity with Muslims. Mary will be the greatest help.
 
jakasaki said:
I did ask him one time where did he get his education on history from… that question is still unanswered. 😃
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I did too, and didn’t get an answer either, but I’ll tell you one thing: I’m not going without chocolate while I wait. 😛
 
dolphinlove said:
plantens sources = plantens fantasy world which is his own mind
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Quite the debate going on but much like KathleenGee said we sometimes have to apologize for others actions, so to put it formally I apologize for others actions. Either way I also appreciate platen’s patience in sticking out this debate, you are quite the good sport.

To the person who is contemplating Islam, I ask you first, (if you are still observing this post) what religion do you hold now? I believe that if it is a Catholic faith than you should certainly gain a better understanding of that faith before you try and jump ship. It was life experience and God’s Will that brought me to this faith and I am amazed every day at the immense depth and beauty in Catholicism. It can be used to explain everything in modern society if you just take the time to listen and learn. By no means does it justify the degradation of this once great society but it makes more sense of it because of some of the parallels spelled out in the Bible. I truly believe that if after a bit of studying and praying that if you find Islam to be the better fit for you than it is by God’s gift of free will that you are justified in doing what you may.
 
Justin1982 said:
Quite the debate going on but much like KathleenGee said we sometimes have to apologize for others actions, so to put it formally I apologize for others actions. Either way I also appreciate platen’s patience in sticking out this debate, you are quite the good sport.

To the person who is contemplating Islam, I ask you first, (if you are still observing this post) what religion do you hold now? I believe that if it is a Catholic faith than you should certainly gain a better understanding of that faith before you try and jump ship. It was life experience and God’s Will that brought me to this faith and I am amazed every day at the immense depth and beauty in Catholicism. It can be used to explain everything in modern society if you just take the time to listen and learn. By no means does it justify the degradation of this once great society but it makes more sense of it because of some of the parallels spelled out in the Bible. I truly believe that if after a bit of studying and praying that if you find Islam to be the better fit for you than it is by God’s gift of free will that you are justified in doing what you may.
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The OP left the forum on January 2nd and has not returned.
 
Planten encourages me every day, my friends. When I wake up, look outside and see another gray and overcast day, Planten’s unique outlook always brings out laughter and joy from the very bottom of my heart… 😃

He reminds me of Col. Qaddafi, without the literary merit.
 
jakasaki said:
The OP left the forum on January 2nd and has not returned.
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Well it was worth a try, it just seems hard for me at least to understand why people don’t look at what they have in front of them before they take these giant leaps of faith (more true in this sense). I have watched videos on YouTube of Muslim converts that explain why they left Christianity and everything they were looking for was outlined in true Christian Faith had they been more honest with themselves they would have just become better Christians.
Better luck next time I suppose.
 
I wonder if it was some kind of ruse by a Muslim…just to see how people would respond.
 
KathleenGee said:
Again, Planten, it makes no sense for people to hand over the place of their faith’s origin.

There were events happening around them that made this surrender happen. And it is recorded that Jerusalem fell to the conquest of Islam and that once teeming populations of Christianity were destroyed in a 400 year period.

The Islamic world needs to acknowledge what it has done, especially to the Christian world and its codified hatred of the Jews.

I can’t imagine what it is like for a devout Orthodox to see St. Sophia staked down by Islamic pillars. And to know their oldest sons were used as a ‘child tax’ in Bosnia to be handed over to Islam and raised and used for war.

Can we imagine being at peace and seeing St. Peter’s staked by the pillars of Islam, and instead of hearing angelic choirs, hearing instead the employ of a minaret? …of seeing our altars desecrated and removed and turned into empty rooms devoid of sacred images?..and the tombs of our popes and saints…what would happen to them??? In some conquests, the churches were desecrated and used as horse stables.

It is a matter of common humane reciprocity.

I pray to Mary of Fatima for Russia…many are returning to their religious roots…some day it has been said that Russia may be the witness of the greatest adoration to God…and I pray to Mary of Fatima for unity with Muslims. Mary will be the greatest help.
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KathleenGee, I cannot understand your mission. You are drifting slowly. The matter under present discussion was the refutation of your assertion that there was lot of bloodshed in Jerusalem when it was taken by the Muslims.

I had explained that it was your wrong statement. Now you are spreading into other fields. I am not interested in things which i do not understand. You have got many other rambling wandering partners who are trying to question my post. While you have drifted into new field and opened new subjects.

Thanks for your discussion about Jerusalem.
 
planten said:
KathleenGee, I cannot understand your mission.
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What is your mission here? To draw attention away from Islam and focus it on Christianity instead, even thought he topic is Islam? You have consistently used the same approach and called it “proof”. Here’s the pattern I’ve observed you using repeatedly:
  1. State that the Christian is wrong, using as proof some Islamic belief or some made-up story;
  2. Attempt to shift the discussion to Christianity by claiming there is something similar in Christian scriptures/history and bringing Christianity down to Islam’s level;
  3. Repeat the original Islamic belief #1] … multiple times if necessary.
  4. Disappear from the forum after being asked a follow-up question you’d rather not address at the moment [you have to consult your sources].
Here is your latest example of this pattern:
You are drifting slowly. The matter under present discussion was the refutation of your assertion that there was lot of bloodshed in Jerusalem when it was taken by the Muslims.
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I had explained that it was your wrong statement. Now you are spreading into other fields. I am not interested in things which i do not understand. You have got many other rambling wandering partners who are trying to question my post. While you have drifted into new field and opened new subjects.
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Thanks for your discussion about Jerusalem.
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[Your disappearing act.]
If you are not interested in things which you do not understand, how will you understand them? Are you interested in things you do understand?
 
sedonaman said:
What is your mission here? To draw attention away from Islam and focus it on Christianity instead, even thought he topic is Islam? You have consistently used the same approach and called it “proof”. Here’s the pattern I’ve observed you using repeatedly:
  1. State that the Christian is wrong, using as proof some Islamic belief or some made-up story;
  2. Attempt to shift the discussion to Christianity by claiming there is something similar in Christian scriptures/history and bringing Christianity down to Islam’s level;
  3. Repeat the original Islamic belief #1] … multiple times if necessary.
  4. Disappear from the forum after being asked a follow-up question you’d rather not address at the moment [you have to consult your sources].
Here is your latest example of this pattern:

[Your disappearing act.]
If you are not interested in things which you do not understand, how will you understand them? Are you interested in things you do understand?
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All I had to do is read your opening paragraph!!! Result …-----> 😃

And then continued on! ----> 😃

👍
 
Yes, I have.

There is a dispute of how Jerusalem was taken. I also read your post and the part on Caliph Omar and see testimonies that verify his entrance. But what is not clear is how or why the habitants of Jerusalem were so easily able to surrender.

I have had to pass so many pages now to find out about Jerusalem before the Crusades…everything is pointing to the Crusades. But nothing before and no explanation as to why the inhabitants surrendered so easily…and the demolition of the heavy Christian populations in Palestine, Egypt and Syria…what happened to them??? We know that North Africa fell. But it also became infected with heresy…and then the bubonic plague, the population weakened…But Palestine?..Israel?..Moses…and all the proceeding prophets…Isaiah…to Christ…His Nazarene Jewish followers who remained…the surrounding people who converted to Christianity who lived among the birthplace, the surrounding areas of Galilea where Jesus preached and performed miracles, and rose the dead back to life, the Sermon on the Mount…what happened? they gave it away to those who do not understand the Jesus that we know…

We recall, you and I, our differences of Christ, HIs message, his death on the cross, his rising from the dead…right in Jerusalem…

It is very difficult for people to get all the facts of how this surrender of Jerusalem happened. And Islam has been in the Holy Land almost as long as the Christians. So we cannot turn back the clock.

And the fighting and disagreements seem humanely impossible to overcome.

So that is why I have turned to Mary because we see her as our mother, and she is very rightly venerated by the Muslims to the point the Muslims have a more correct understanding and knowledge of Mary than the Protestants. You believe in her immaculate conception, you believe in her virginal birth and that she was with no one except the Spirit of God.

That is a very great belief to hold on to.

I see your devotion to Mary as a Muslim a great sign of hope. And with your recognition of Mary conceived without sin, and being perpetual virign, I see the Muslims having a very special place in Mary’s heart.

As we have prayed for the conversion, should it be better I say the former Soviet Union – Russia who is in the middle of East and West, and is returning to its religious roots and we know it is through the work of Mary …of Fatima…so I believe it will be Mary who will be of great help between the Muslims and Christianity.

We can’t go back to undo the damage. But I know Mary can enter a person’s soul, and put it in right order to face the Lord. And she can do that with all our hearts.

And I think it only fair that the Muslims also ask forgiveness for the wrongs done by their believers of the past as well, like we have had to do, and continue to do.

God bless you!
 
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