Contemplating Islam

[sidbrown]

It’s good to be modestly dressed but it really tells nothing about the kind of person one is. My Muslim friend from a shipping firm was cheated by his Muslim secretary of 11 years who wore a “Tudung” daily, spoke kindly, seemed so friendly etc etc but he later found out she has been siphoning money by writing phony cheques to put into her own pocket. She asked for forgiveness but told a whole new story to her aging parents, who inturn insulted my friend as if He did the wrong things. He trusted her for years. Shame.

MJ

Modesty in dress is part of the answer, but not the whole one of course. I like the modest dress of Muslim women as contrasted to the prostitute like dress I see on some other nonMuslim women, even at religious functions.

 

[KathleenGee]

I wonder how much the wantonness of certain kinds of Western women, as well as America’s support of the Jewish people returning to the land of the covenant, are the sources of fuel that inflames Islam.

 

[KathleenGee]

There is much work in the Western world to restore the dignity of woman…and the starting place is with Mary.

Many Westerners are making pilgrimages to Medgugorje and coming into great conversion to God through Mary. I have never been there. But I see alot of good coming from those who go, as well as the stories I hear.

 

[planten]

God is one…personhood is aspects or qualities but is not of God.

So we have to look at semantics of what defines God and what defines personhood.

So if you, Planten, are allowed to read the Koran literally, then out of respect for other religions, you should also give them the right to understand the words of Jesus ‘literally’.
I qualify literal because Jesus spoke in parables.

If the Jews all believed in Jesus, we would not have a universal church, it would be a Jewish church and we would be subordinate…and no inculturation of worship into various peoples of the world.

Jesus is the carnate face of God.

KathleenGee, there would have been no problem in the world if you had believed in God the way that Jesus taught. He never preached about himself as God. Nobody worshipped him. Most people believed in him as a prophet of God. That is all very clear from the present day bibles.

You are right. If all Jews had believed in jesus, there would not be a new religion. But there was no need of any new religion. The old old religion of the Jews, where jesus and his mother belonged, was good enough. People would have benefitted immensely by accepting the godd (best) teachings of Jesus. The Jews would have got rid of the foreign rule too, easily.

They would have benefitted morally, politically, materially, physically and spiritually, But, alas, that was not to be like that.

Since the Jews denied Jesus, they suffered all the more till today. i,e, for many thousand years. Only recently, the Jews have had a good set mind about things. But still they do not believe in the bibleNT. There is no need for them to do that because the bibleNt is no more what was taught by Jesus. If bibleNT had been real today and the Jews still denying it, they would never have had the better life even today.

The Jews are the leaders. They have the law and complete religion. BibleNt or the works of Jesus are only an addendum of the BibleOT. There is no law for mankind in the bibleNT. The reason for that is simple. There never was to be any new teaching intended for the people at the time of Jesus. Only the corrupt practices and bad interpratations by the elders of the Jews were to be put right. Nothing else was to be done.

Jesus had not come to derail the faith of the Jews. He was a very much part of his own people. Only they denied Jiesus and tried to kill him. That made a split amongst the Jews which increased day by day. It now stands as a different religion called christianity. There was no need for the new religion.

Now all religions, Judaism, christianity and Islam need a revival and reforms. Just relax. It happens with the passage of time that religions lose sight of the true path. The church or cathedral or mosque cannot correct the matters. It is only a man of God who can correct the matters and put the faith in God on good track.

I have no problem with what is left of the christianity. It is acceptable to me as it is available now. But love and gentleness is needed, to give others the benefit that one demands for himself. It is not right that we praise our own religion by our own mouth and we try to deny and abuse the other religions. That will get us nowhere.

keep up prayers to the One God to help and save our souls. jesus had said “You will not see me again until you say " Glory be to the one who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
he also said. “Your house is left desolate…” He had many things to say to the jews but he could not do that. It means his mission in this world was not complete.

Thanks for your interest in religions and in prayers. God will help and guide you. Be a good christian. You have nothing to fear. May God bless you.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thank you, Planten, and God’s blessings be with you.

I heard some authors speak about the current situation in the world. One travelled to China, then to the Middle East and spoke to members of Hezbollah and Hamas, and many other places as well.

All the people said they felt the world was undergoing a change, and that what worked before, won’t work now.

The author believed that the solution was to not depend on old ways but to begin to ‘think outside the box’.

The second author, who knew the first, went out into the world to find out why some people survived hardships and great trials, and others did not. There were also aspects of having good luck, which really turned out to be more about attitude. He also studied plane crashes, freak accidents, sickness, being in Nazi concentration camps, and so on.

There are mental outlooks that help us to go on, some times even making little mental habits to get through the day. But what helped people more than anything was belief in God. In God alone we put our trust.

The third, also a friend, reflected on our country. And this relates to all the people of the world. He said the model for us should be Moses…and that we are like the ancient Jews leaving Egypt for the Promised Land…leaving oppression for something more humane and just.

I think you can relate to these three authors. They went out into different directions, drew on different issues and came back, and all three books tied into each other. One described the problem and essential solutions, the second essentially drew on faith in God, and the third was to seek a better world.

All three require enlightened thinking.

About religion…it may look like Christianity is dying. Here in America, in Catholic Churches across the country, inspite of all the tremendous anti-Catholicism, attendance at Easter was the greatest in modern times. And inspite of the scandals, one diocese had 1,000 people come into the church.

Christianity is going through a purification. And there are those of us who believe some day the Protestants and different sects, – and the Muslims-- will be with us, may be with the work of Our Lady of Fatima’s request for prayer and penance, and offering each day as a sacrifice of love for Jesus.

Planten, I have a nun friend. She worked with a Jesuit in the missions. He died. For several weeks, she felt his presence, and the message was, "Jesus is tremendous…Jesus is tremendous…’

You should also look at the site, www.hebrewcatholic.org. Here are the Jews becoming now Catholic and instead of participating in the old way of worship, they are now attending the sacrifice of the Mass and seeing so many ancient symbols now recognized as our Church.

The Lord is holding back the Jews. They are formidable people. I have worked in caring for them. I have the utmost respect for their sensibility, their desire to be educated, how well they manage their income and time, how they venerate and treasure their families and ethnicity.

My Hebrew Catholic friends now experience more fulfillment as a Jew in the Catholic Church than before, and they believe some day they will then be able to help the Gentile Christians.

Great days await us. Judaism and Christianity are the two lamps that give light to the world, they are the two olive trees…and the time is coming when the Light will be One, and the Gentile olive tree will be grafted onto the Jewish tree.

Jesus died ‘on a tree’…meaning on wood…He died on a pagan symbol of a horrific death and defeated the power of death and sin over our lives…no one else has done that. He also said that when He returns, will there be any faith left.

Do not underestimate Jesus.

 

[KathleenGee]

By the way, Planten,

What do you think of this prayer.

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

 

[sedonaman]

I wonder how much the wantonness of certain kinds of Western women, as well as America’s support of the Jewish people returning to the land of the covenant, are the sources of fuel that inflames Islam.

There was a news commentator, Hughes Rudd, on the radio in the early 1970s who reported on the war that eventually separated Bangladesh from the rest of Pakistan and wondered why people who were starving were spending their resources on fighting a war, and his conclusion was, “People are just no damned good.”

Islam was a problem for the world long before the U.S. and the modern state of Israel even existed, even long before the Crusades:

632 – Mohammed dies
633 – Mesopotamia falls to Muslim invasion, followed by the entire Persian Empire
635 – Damascus falls
638 – Jerusalem capitulates
643 – Alexandria falls, ending 1,000 years of Hellenic civilization
648-49 – Cyprus falls
653 – Rhodes falls
673 – Constantinople attacked
698 – All of North Africa lost
711 – Spain invaded
717 – Muslims attack Constantinople again; repelled by Emperor Leo the Isaurian
721 – Saragossa falls, Muslims sights on southern France
720 – Narbonne falls.
732 – Bordeaux was stormed and its churches burnt down
732 – Charles Martel and his Frankish army defeat Muslims, turning back the Muslim tide
732 – Attacks on France continued
734 – Avignon captured by an Muslim force
743 – Lyons sacked
759 – Arabs driven out of Narbonne.
838 – Marseilles plundered
800 – Muslims incursions into Italy begin, Islands of Ponza and Ischia plundered
813 – Civitavecchia, the port of Rome sacked
826 – Crete falls to Muslim forces
827 – Muslim forces begin to attack Sicily.
837 – Naples repels a Muslim attack
838 – Marseilles taken
840 – Bari falls
842 – Messina captured and Strait of Messina controlled
846 – Muslims squadrons arrived at Ostia, at the Tiber’s mouth, sack Rome and St. Peter’s Basilica
846 – Taranto in Apulia conquered by Muslim forces
849 – Papal forces repel Muslim fleet at the mouth of the Tiber
853 – 871 – Italian coast from Bari down to Reggio Calabria controlled, Muslims terrorize Southern Italy.
859 – Muslims take control of all Messina
870 – Malta captured by the Muslims.
870 – Bari recaptured from the Muslims by Emperor Louis II
872 – Emperor Louis II defeats a Saracen fleet off Capua
872 – Muslim forces devastate Calabria
878 – Syracuse falls after a nine-month siege
879 – Pope John VIII forced to pay tribute of 25,000 mancuses (AUD$625,000) annually to the Muslims
880 – Byzantine Commanders gain victory over Saracen forces at Naples
881 – Muslims capture fortress near Anzio, plunder surrounding countryside with impunity for forty [40] years.
887 – Muslim armies take Hysela and Amasia, in Asia Minor.
889 – Toulon captured
921 – English pilgrims to Rome crushed to death under rocks rolled down on them by Saracens in the passes of the Alps
902 – Muslim fleets sacked and destroyed Demetrias in Thessaly, Central Greece,
904 – Thessalonica falls to Muslim forces
915 – After three months of blockade, Christian forces victorious against Saracens holed-up in their fortresses north of Naples
934 – Genoa attacked by Muslim forces
935 – Genoa taken
972 – Saracens finally driven from Faxineto
976 – Caliphs of Egypt send fresh Muslim expeditions into southern Italy. Initially the German Emperor Otho II , who had set up his headquarters in Rome, successfully defeated these Saracen forces
977 – Sergius, Archbishop of Damascus, expelled from his See by Muslims
982 – Emperor Otho’s forces ambushed and his army defeated
1003 – Muslims from Spain sack Antibes
1003-09 – Marauding bands of Saracens plunder Italian coast from Pisa to Rome from bases on Sardinia
1005 – Muslims from Spain sack Pisa
1009 – Caliph of Egypt orders destruction of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, the Tomb of Jesus
1010 – Saracens seize Cosenza in southern Italy.
1015 – All Sardinia falls
1016 – Muslims from Spain again sack Pisa
1017 – Fleets of Pisa and Genoa sail for Sardinia, find Saracens crucifying Christians, drive Saracen leader out. Saracens try to re-take Sardinia until 1050
1020 – Muslims from Spain sack Narbonne
1095 – The First Crusade.

Source: “The Crusades In Context” by By Dr Paul Stenhouse

There were 463 years between Mohammed’s death in 632 and the calling of a Crusade to free lands that had been Christian before the Muslim invaders arrived; but to hear what passes for common “knowledge”, the whole affair was solely the fault of power-hungry popes, greedy soldiers of fortune, and Christians who were persecuting harmless, pious Muslims minding their own business.

Just look at a map and mark off the Islamic countries and you will note that they extend from the Atlantic to the South Pacific. Then ask yourself why Muslims can’t live without one little sliver of land that has no oil under it. Also ask yourself why can’t the Islamic countries take in the several million Palestinians when Israel takes in many more Jews in proportion every year? Answer: “People are just no damned good.”

 

[planten]

By the way, Planten,

What do you think of this prayer.

** "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.**

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.  Amen."

I agree with the part which I have colored. I hail mary and Jesus and I am full of respect for them. I believe that those who have passed away (Mary, Moses, Muhammad) cannot pray any more. However their intercession is possible in next world with the permission of the God Almighty.

 

[planten]

632 – Mohammed dies
633 – Mesopotamia falls to Muslim invasion, followed by the entire Persian Empire
635 – Damascus falls
638 – Jerusalem capitulates
643 – Alexandria falls, ending 1,000 years of Hellenic civilization
648-49 – Cyprus falls

sedonaman, it appears that the fall of Roman Catholic Empire is hurting you. Muhammad and his followers are not responsible for that. Please read the earlier history of the activity of the Roman catholic Empire and the acts of atrocities (hostilities) carried out by the Roman Empire and their ill intentions against the tiny muslim State of Madinah. Then remember your own bloody religious wars (Crusades).

I am least interested in any politics. So please come by some good things of Catholicism. If there is anything good in your religion then bring it. It will be welcome. Otherwise do not incite any one into wrong thinking by your wrong politics. Thanks.

Can you tell me what you were doing in those countries which were liberated by the Muslims?? Why (and How) did you (The Roman catholics) go to Cyprus and other places like Egypt etc. You had conquerred those countires. Why did you do that?? And your people massacred and persecuted the Jews all over your territories. That is a good part of the history.

sedonaman, You are embarking on wrong subject.

 

[sedonaman]

sedonaman, it appears that the fall of Roman Catholic Empire is hurting you. Muhammad and his followers are not responsible for that. Please read the earlier history of the activity of the Roman catholic Empire and the acts of atrocities (hostilities) carried out by the Roman Empire and their ill intentions against the tiny muslim State of Madinah. Then remember your own bloody religious wars (Crusades).

I am least interested in any politics. So please come by some good things of Catholicism. If there is anything good in your religion then bring it. It will be welcome. Otherwise do not incite any one into wrong thinking by your wrong politics. Thanks.

Can you tell me what you were doing in those countries which were liberated by the Muslims?? Why (and How) did you (The Roman catholics) go to Cyprus and other places like Egypt etc. You had conquerred those countires. Why did you do that?? And your people massacred and persecuted the Jews all over your territories. That is a good part of the history.

sedonaman, You are embarking on wrong subject.

We are familiar with your version of history. Here are a couple of your posts, in their original fonts:

…Muhammad was driven out of his city (Makkah) by the pagans in year 622 A.D… He had to save his life. There was a price of 100 Red camels on his head, dead or alive. He migrated to Madinah where he charted out a plan of peaceful living with the local people and Jews and Christians, a plan of mutual co-operation, co-existence. That charter is called the Meethaq e Madinah and may be available even today in some libraray.
Muhammad never went to Makkah to attack the pagans. The pagans (Mushrikeen of Makkah) were blood thirsty to annihilate the new state of Madinah. The Jews and the Christians were the helpers of the pagans.The pagans attacked Madinah every year. War was always imposed on Muhammad… War takes its toll.
There are spoils of war there is always some booty. There was an open rule for the disribution of the booty. What harm is there if 1/5 went to the prophet. He had many commitments. Try to look at these things in a good way. Many days there was no food in his house and there was no fire for cooking anything.
Muhammad never built any palace for himself. He used to sleep on a plain bed. But the christian king Kaisar at Rome and the Persian King and his cronies lived a life of luxury.
Muhammad was a true examplary international leader of all people of the world.

**Your post is all false. It was the nearby christian states under the major influence of the christian king Kaisar of Rome who assembled armies on the borders of the Islamic state of Madinah. Muslims had no power to face the armies of the Kaisar. …
**

 

[fkjuliano]

632 – Mohammed dies
633 – Mesopotamia falls to Muslim invasion, followed by the entire Persian Empire
635 – Damascus falls
638 – Jerusalem capitulates
643 – Alexandria falls, ending 1,000 years of Hellenic civilization
648-49 – Cyprus falls
653 – Rhodes falls
673 – Constantinople attacked
698 – All of North Africa lost
711 – Spain invaded
717 – Muslims attack Constantinople again; repelled by Emperor Leo the Isaurian
721 – Saragossa falls, Muslims sights on southern France
720 – Narbonne falls.
732 – Bordeaux was stormed and its churches burnt down
732 – Charles Martel and his Frankish army defeat Muslims, turning back the Muslim tide
732 – Attacks on France continued
734 – Avignon captured by an Muslim force
743 – Lyons sacked
759 – Arabs driven out of Narbonne.
838 – Marseilles plundered
800 – Muslims incursions into Italy begin, Islands of Ponza and Ischia plundered
813 – Civitavecchia, the port of Rome sacked
826 – Crete falls to Muslim forces
827 – Muslim forces begin to attack Sicily.
837 – Naples repels a Muslim attack
838 – Marseilles taken
840 – Bari falls
842 – Messina captured and Strait of Messina controlled
846 – Muslims squadrons arrived at Ostia, at the Tiber’s mouth, sack Rome and St. Peter’s Basilica
846 – Taranto in Apulia conquered by Muslim forces
849 – Papal forces repel Muslim fleet at the mouth of the Tiber
853 – 871 – Italian coast from Bari down to Reggio Calabria controlled, Muslims terrorize Southern Italy.
859 – Muslims take control of all Messina
870 – Malta captured by the Muslims.
870 – Bari recaptured from the Muslims by Emperor Louis II
872 – Emperor Louis II defeats a Saracen fleet off Capua
872 – Muslim forces devastate Calabria
878 – Syracuse falls after a nine-month siege
879 – Pope John VIII forced to pay tribute of 25,000 mancuses (AUD$625,000) annually to the Muslims
880 – Byzantine Commanders gain victory over Saracen forces at Naples
881 – Muslims capture fortress near Anzio, plunder surrounding countryside with impunity for forty [40] years.
887 – Muslim armies take Hysela and Amasia, in Asia Minor.
889 – Toulon captured
921 – English pilgrims to Rome crushed to death under rocks rolled down on them by Saracens in the passes of the Alps
902 – Muslim fleets sacked and destroyed Demetrias in Thessaly, Central Greece,
904 – Thessalonica falls to Muslim forces
915 – After three months of blockade, Christian forces victorious against Saracens holed-up in their fortresses north of Naples
934 – Genoa attacked by Muslim forces
935 – Genoa taken
972 – Saracens finally driven from Faxineto
976 – Caliphs of Egypt send fresh Muslim expeditions into southern Italy. Initially the German Emperor Otho II , who had set up his headquarters in Rome, successfully defeated these Saracen forces
977 – Sergius, Archbishop of Damascus, expelled from his See by Muslims
982 – Emperor Otho’s forces ambushed and his army defeated
1003 – Muslims from Spain sack Antibes
1003-09 – Marauding bands of Saracens plunder Italian coast from Pisa to Rome from bases on Sardinia
1005 – Muslims from Spain sack Pisa
1009 – Caliph of Egypt orders destruction of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, the Tomb of Jesus
1010 – Saracens seize Cosenza in southern Italy.
1015 – All Sardinia falls
1016 – Muslims from Spain again sack Pisa
1017 – Fleets of Pisa and Genoa sail for Sardinia, find Saracens crucifying Christians, drive Saracen leader out. Saracens try to re-take Sardinia until 1050
1020 – Muslims from Spain sack Narbonne
1095 – The First Crusade.

Source: “The Crusades In Context” by By Dr Paul Stenhouse

There were 463 years between Mohammed’s death in 632 and the calling of a Crusade to free lands that had been Christian before the Muslim invaders arrived; but to hear what passes for common “knowledge”, the whole affair was solely the fault of power-hungry popes, greedy soldiers of fortune, and Christians who were persecuting harmless, pious Muslims minding their own business.

Just look at a map and mark off the Islamic countries and you will note that they extend from the Atlantic to the South Pacific. Then ask yourself why Muslims can’t live without one little sliver of land that has no oil under it. Also ask yourself why can’t the Islamic countries take in the several million Palestinians when Israel takes in many more Jews in proportion every year? Answer: “People are just no damned good.”

This is very sobering, and I thank Sedonaman for posting it. I knew Muslims had committed many acts of aggression against Christendom before the Holy Crusades, but I did not realize the extent. It is undeniable that their goal was the total destruction of Christian civilization and religion. And they devastated Calabria. That is the “toe” of the Italian peninsula and the land of my ancestors. I think this explains why Calabria was a center of wealth and culture in antiquity but is today one of the poorest regions of Western Europe.

When we had the Muslims against the wall in the 19th and early 20th centuries, we should have converted vast regions, like North Africa, Egypt, the Middle East and Indonesia to Christianity, we should have sent in missionaries with a Bible in one hand and a sword in the other, but unfortunately Western governments were already in the hands of unbelievers who were indifferent to the true Faith and let Islam keep what Mohammed’s armies stole.

 

[MrZetterlund]

My advise is to not speak prejudicely against Islam. Simply, from a theological point of view, show why Christianity is right and Islam is wrong. Isaiah calls Jesus “Mighty God, Everlasting Father” In Isaiah 9:6. -And this is a book the Jews use, so it couldn’t be plagarized by Christians to fit the interpritation, because Jews do not believe in a divine Messiah. Also, Micah 5:2 states “Bethlehem, out of you shall come a ruler… And His goings forth will be of Old, from Everlasting.” Let him see how much more complex Christianity’s prophecies are, and how complete it is. The Qu’ran is a Q and A book that fails. I made a thread on one theological failure of Muhammed -brb.

 

[MrZetterlund]

Black: Muhammed Red: Me

“The Jews and Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His loved ones. Say: Why then doth He chastise you for your sins? Maybe because THAT’S WHAT A FATHER DOES! Ney, you are but mortals of His creating. Isn’t every child a mortal of his father’s creating?” -Koran 5:18

 

[sedonaman]

Black: Muhammed Red: Me

“The Jews and Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His loved ones. Say: Why then doth He chastise you for your sins? Maybe because THAT’S WHAT A FATHER DOES! Ney, you are but mortals of His creating. Isn’t every child a mortal of his father’s creating?” -Koran 5:18

This method is confusing.

 

[sedonaman]

My advise is to not speak prejudicely against Islam. Simply, from a theological point of view, show why Christianity is right and Islam is wrong. …

We’ve been through all that, including St. Thomas Aquinas’ advice that it does no good to quote scripture to those who do not accept it. So we have attempted to show the error of Islam by using Islam’s own foundational texts.*Note] IOW, use scriptures they do accept. But then we open ourselves to criticism like do “not speak prejudicely [sic] against Islam”. In fact, any criticism of Islam is considered prejudice against it; therefore we are blocked from making any statements at all, a notion that I reject.

The main problem I see in discussing things with Muslims is that Islamic thought is dualistic, i.e., two conflicting statements can both be true at the same time. [In the example below, we see that Judeo-Christian scriptures are both good and bad.] We in the West use unitary logic; i.e., if two statements conflict, at least one of them is wrong.

BTW, “prejudiced” means to be characterized by pre judging. In view of the dates of the historical events in my post above and the fact they are in the past, how are they a “judgment”, much less a “pre” judgment?

*Note: For example, Mohammed affirms the Judeo-Christian scriptures to validate his own prophethood, but then goes on to discredit them for being “corrupted”. Islam should be rejected because it relies on scriptures it denies.

… I made a thread on one theological failure of Muhammed -brb.

Got a link?

 

[KathleenGee]

Planten, where is the baseline of true religion that respects the right to exist of other religions?

You just saw a historical timeline where the center of Judaism, the birthplace of Christianity and the Gospels, and the center of Orthodoxy was overcome with bloodshed and destruction by Islam.

You have seen no retribution for another 1,000 years by Jews or Christians to take over the Hajj…and if they did, would it be bloodless???

Can you see what i mean?

I pray to Mary for you.

 

[MrZetterlund]

This method is confusing.

It’s simple. Muhammed’s theology isn’t logically true. A good father chastizes his sons. Muhammed says, "If God is your father, then why doth He chastize you for your sins?
duh… Muhammed says “Ney! Ye are but mortals of His creating!” Duh… (again) Every child is a mortal of His Father’s creating. The red parts are commentary from me.)

We’ve been through all that, including St. Thomas Aquinas’ advice that it does no good to quote scripture to those who do not accept it. So we have attempted to show the error of Islam by using Islam’s own foundational texts.*Note] IOW, use scriptures they do accept. But then we open ourselves to criticism like do “not speak prejudicely [sic] against Islam”. In fact, any criticism of Islam is considered prejudice against it; therefore we are blocked from making any statements at all, a notion that I reject.

The main problem I see in discussing things with Muslims is that Islamic thought is dualistic, i.e., two conflicting statements can both be true at the same time. [In the example below, we see that Judeo-Christian scriptures are both good and bad.] We in the West use unitary logic; i.e., if two statements conflict, at least one of them is wrong.

BTW, “prejudiced” means to be characterized by pre judging. In view of the dates of the historical events in my post above and the fact they are in the past, how are they a “judgment”, much less a “pre” judgment?

*Note: For example, Mohammed affirms the Judeo-Christian scriptures to validate his own prophethood, but then goes on to discredit them for being “corrupted”. Islam should be rejected because it relies on scriptures it denies.

I know. What I’m saying is that the texts that the Jews use (Non-Jesus believers) have references inthem that support Christian interpritation LONG before the Christian idea of the role of the Messiah was taken. And Islam doesn’t portray a correct picture of the Messiah. This should work with someone “contemplating” Islam. Not necessarily a devout follow.

 

[KathleenGee]

Inspite of all the conversations with Muslims, it frightens me that they have little comprehension or admission of any guilt for taking over the Holy Land or St. Sophia’s and the Orthodox.

Where is the retribution by the Christians???

How come no Jew or Christian has wanted to attack the Hajj or destroy it? The lack of response is true religion at work.

I see no Muslim saying to please forgive them…The Lord God gave Israel the covenant of the Land, and Scripture itself promised some day the Jews would return.

And so many Palestinian Christians whose roots go back 2,000 years are being forced to move because of the violence and hate. I see no Muslim saying to forgive those who want to take over Christian places for themselves.

To lack humane and common reciprocity is saying something but it does not use words.

So I pray the rosary all the time for conversions and unity Mother Mary.

 

[planten]

Planten, where is the baseline of true religion that respects the right to exist of other religions?

You just saw a historical timeline where the center of Judaism, the birthplace of Christianity and the Gospels, and the center of Orthodoxy was overcome with bloodshed and destruction by Islam.

You have seen no retribution for another 1,000 years by Jews or Christians to take over the Hajj…and if they did, would it be bloodless???

Can you see what i mean?

I pray to Mary for you.

KathleenGee,I cannot fully understand your problem. Please remember that islam did not attack the Christian Kingdom at all. It was the mighty Christian forces who attacked the tiny Muslim state.

So, once when hostilities start, they continue for long time. The result was that the Roman catholics lost all battles against islam. That was not the fault of Islam. It was the Roman (first) and persians (later) who attacked Muslim state. The Muslims had to go into battle and they took the battle into the enemy territory. You cannot complain.

Next, please remember that jerusalem was the sacred place for the jews and the christians and the Muslims too. It was the seat of the Christian religion. That city was taken without any bloodshed. If you want details, I can provide you the same.

We must know that jerusalem belonged to the Jews, not to the christians. can you explain to me how you came to occupy that city??? I have explained many times that I do not support any political struggle for supermacy. I do not mind if the christians keep on ruling with law as long as they do not disturb the peace for others.

You are trying to pull me into political matters. i have no answer for you. I am sorry.

In the end, I have told you before that we Muslims do not pray to any but One God. We worship One God and pray to Him alone. We do not pray to Moses and Jesus and Mary and Muhammad. But you are praying to Mary and perhaps asking for some favors.

Mary has passed away peacefully after doing her duty in the best possible way for God’s sake. She is no more. Her book of deeds is closed. I cannot understand what you do by praying to Mary. Can you tell me exactly what you say in your prayers. Do you ask something from Mary and you expect to get something?? It appears that we are not on common grounds on this subject. Thanks any way for the discussion.

 

[blazerdave]

So, once when hostilities start, they continue for long time. The result was that the Roman catholics lost all battles against islam. That was not the fault of Islam. It was the Roman (first) and persians (later) who attacked Muslim state. The Muslims had to go into battle and they took the battle into the enemy territory. You cannot complain.