Contemplating Islam

[seraphime2008]

KathleenGee, I cannot understand your mission. You are drifting slowly. The matter under present discussion was the refutation of your assertion that there was lot of bloodshed in Jerusalem when it was taken by the Muslims.

I had explained that it was your wrong statement. Now you are spreading into other fields. I am not interested in things which i do not understand. You have got many other rambling wandering partners who are trying to question my post. While you have drifted into new field and opened new subjects.

Thanks for your discussion about Jerusalem.

Here are some lessons on history for you to learn Planten, about how Muslims have claimed things (Jerusalem) that is never even mentioned in Koran,has no tie or root for Islam in the first place:

danielpipes.org/84/the-muslim-claim-to-jerusalem

The Qur’anic inscriptions that make up a 240-meter mosaic frieze inside the Dome of the Rock do not include Qur’an 17:1 and the story of the Night Journey, suggesting that as late as 692 the idea of Jerusalem as the lift-off for the Night Journey had not yet been established. (Indeed, the first extant inscriptions of Qur’an 17:1 in Jerusalem date from the eleventh century.)

Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiya (638-700), a close relative of the Prophet Muhammad, is quoted denigrating the notion that the prophet ever set foot on the Rock in Jerusalem; “these damned Syrians,” by which he means the Umayyads, “pretend that God put His foot on the Rock in Jerusalem, though [only] one person ever put his foot on the rock, namely Abraham.”

As for Jerusalem under Muslims authority, it became:

Then, with the Umayyad demise in 750 and the move of the caliph’s capital to Baghdad, “imperial patronage became negligible” and **Jerusalem fell into near-obscurity. **For the next three and a half centuries, books praising this city lost favor and the construction of glorious buildings not only came to an end but existing ones fell apart (the dome over the rock collapsed in 1016). Gold was stripped off the dome to pay for Al-Aqsa repair work. City walls collapsed. Worse, the rulers of the new dynasty bled Jerusalem and its region country through what F. E. Peters of New York University calls “their rapacity and their careless indifference.” The city declined to the point of becoming a shambles. “Learned men are few, and the Christians numerous,” bemoaned a tenth-century Muslim native of Jerusalem. Only mystics continued to visit the city.

This leads to the main question:

One comparison makes this point most clearly: Jerusalem appears in the Jewish Bible 669 times and Zion (which usually means Jerusalem, sometimes the Land of Israel) 154 times, or 823 times in all. The Christian Bible mentions Jerusalem 154 times and Zion 7 times. In contrast, the columnist Moshe Kohn notes, Jerusalem and Zion appear as frequently in the Qur’an “as they do in the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita, the Taoist Tao-Te Ching, the Buddhist Dhamapada and the Zoroastrian Zend Avesta”—which is to say, not once.

**The city being of such evidently minor religious importance, why does it now loom so large for Muslims, to the point that a Muslim Zionism seems to be in the making across the Muslim world? Why do Palestinian demonstrators take to the streets shouting “We will sacrifice our blood and souls for you, Jerusalem” and their brethren in Jordan yell “We sacrifice our blood and soul for Al-Aqsa”? Why does King Fahd of Saudi Arabia call on Muslim states to protect “the holy city [that] belongs to all Muslims across the world”? Why did two surveys of American Muslims find Jerusalem their most pressing foreign policy issue?
**

So surely, the motive is always political, since Islamic vision of the world is political:

Because of politics. An historical survey shows that the stature of the city, and the emotions surrounding it, inevitably rises for Muslims when Jerusalem has political significance. Conversely, when the utility of Jerusalem expires, so does its status and the passions about it. This pattern first emerged during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad in the early seventh century. Since then, it has been repeated on five occasions: in the late seventh century, in the twelfth century Countercrusade, in the thirteenth century Crusades, during the era of British rule (1917-48), and since Israel took the city in 1967. The consistency that emerges in such a long period provides an important perspective on the current confrontatio

 

[seraphime2008]

This is also an interesting arcticle on who’s supposed to posses “the Kingdom of Heaven” or Jerusalem, the history of it’s conquerors and the motives:

answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/crusades.htm

and another one:
answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/crusades.htm

 

[planten]

Well it was worth a try, it just seems hard for me at least to understand why people don’t look at what they have in front of them before they take these giant leaps of faith (more true in this sense). I have watched videos on YouTube of Muslim converts that explain why they left Christianity and everything they were looking for was outlined in true Christian Faith had they been more honest with themselves **they would have just become better Christians.**Better luck next time I suppose.

Justin, that has been my interest here most of the time that Catholics should try always to be better christians. I never intended them to convert. But I had hell of fight trying to support / protect Islam. People thought that I was trying to convert people. That is never in my mind and I am no one to do that. That needs a radical change of heart (pure heart) and that change of heart is in rthe hands of God Almighty.

 

[KathleenGee]

Planten,

Remember, though, when we respond to you in your understanding of Christianity, again we recognize the filter of your concept of our faith, and it is not correct. So when people try to tell you otherwise, you do not accept the truth of our faith.

Christianity is the faith of the Living God…it is a contradiction to us to fight and conquer. All the land surrounding Jerusalem was under siege for 6 months. An imposter was sent in to ask surrender from the bishops. Inhabitants did not recognize him as Omar and so the bishops sent him back. So the initial offer of surrender was also done with elements of untruthfulness. Finally Omar did arrive as you said.

But the people also had to accept as well that they were second class citizens in the city of their faith.

You know, the terrorists who bombed 9/11 had their leadership say to America now is your time to suffer.

But Islam has never suffered the violation of their lands and faith. They have never suffered to the degree Jews and Christians, Hindus and Buddhists have suffered.

 

[KathleenGee]

To not see Christians and Jews retaliate and take over Muslim places is rather a sign of great strength…It is a sign of great strength not to consider ourselves superior, or promote our faith through serving rather than killing, because our God is a living God.

I do not address this to you Planten, but to your leadership of Islam.

Among all people, there is only one divine thing a human being can do. And that is to forgive.

The Church says it is sorry for its past sins. We hear little acknowledgment from other religions or peoples.

So I now ask:

Islam is weak because it contradicts the God of the Living by its conquest of others?

Islam is weak because it is not able to say, 'We are sorry for our past'??

 

[KathleenGee]

Spain, Sardinia, Sicily…These go way back…

In America, we are now hearing the Muslims were the one who really discovered it, and they want America back.

Sigh…

 

[blazerdave]

Spain, Sardinia, Sicily…These go way back…

In America, we are now hearing the Muslims were the one who really discovered it, and they want America back.

Sigh…

Tell me you’re joking and that idiots aren’t actually claiming that.

Yes they were.

 

[KathleenGee]

Oh, such comments, … it was made by one Muslim…if only I had kept the source…reading such things…I think they are so ridiculous I disregard them, but the innane comments return…

They have a captive audience who will believe anything…

I saw something on Youtube that those Muslims making more claims, science, knowledge…

I usually get so disturbed don’t want to go back.

Well I will peak around on cyberspace and see if I can find the quote about the Muslims coming to America…

I heard it was the Asians who came over the Bering Sea.

 

[sedonaman]

Yes, and the reason they [or some imaginary Muslims] don’t get the same level of credit for their discovery that Columbus does is that it didn’t change history.

This claim by Muslims is like those of the old Soviet Union of the '50s when the Cold War was moving into full swing. The Russians claimed they invented everything, the telephone, telegraph, TV, airplane, etc. You name it, a Russian invented it. If memory serves me, I think they even wanted Alaska back. They needed to make these claims to overcome their justifiable feelings of inferiority.

A valid point that can be made is that America wasn’t “discovered”; it was built, so there is the question of what Muslims are asking for, America in its state when this alleged “discovery” took place, or it’s current state? Three guesses, and the first two don’t count.

 

[KathleenGee]

Oh My!!!

The threads came right up…and alot of them.

Here is one from 2002 as a response.

www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/767087/posts

And here is a source…scary…

www.muslims.eu/Muslims_discovery_America.html

Then I found another one about the Chinese discovering America. That one would concern our military, but I am sure they already know about it as well.

In the Soviet Union, the only thing they would hear about in America was our disasters, storms, earthquakes, people protesting, so much unhappiness.

Overseas all people hear is that America is the enemy of the world, everything is our fault.

Oh well.

And nobody is sorry. It is our dang problem.

 

[blazerdave]

Oh My!!!

The threads came right up…and alot of them.

Here is one from 2002 as a response.

www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/767087/posts

And here is a source…scary…

www.muslims.eu/Muslims_discovery_America.html

Then I found another one about the Chinese discovering America. That one would concern our military, but I am sure they already know about it as well.

In the Soviet Union, the only thing they would hear about in America was our disasters, storms, earthquakes, people protesting, so much unhappiness.

Overseas all people hear is that America is the enemy of the world, everything is our fault.

Oh well.

And nobody is sorry. It is our dang problem.

Oh my. I’m sorry you had to encounter this nonsense again! I agree, it’s really just discouraging and irritating to read/hear about that kind of junk. Looks like the “Information Age” has as much ignorance as the “Enlightenment” had darkness.

 

[nsper7]

What would you say to a person who was contemplating Islam?
I really need some strong advice and hard facts!

Are you Catholic? If so, what attracts you to Islam? I admit that recently, I have felt an attraction to Islam because I am sick and tired of all the fear I have felt since becoming Christian: basically, I am one of those that came to faith (first as an Evangelical/Fundamentalist Protestant, made his rounds and ended up Catholic) pretty much because of fear of Hell and my faith has gotten stuck there and it has led to one nervous breakdown after another and major Scrupulosity issues. Thus, my faith, instead of bringing a peace that supersedes all earthly peace, has brought me terror that supersedes earthly terror.

The thing is I have yet to be convinced that Islam (or Judaism or any other faith) is correct. Rest assured, if I came to the conclusion they were, I would jump off the Christian ‘fear-of-Hell’ bandwagon, but I have yet to be convinced.

 

[KathleenGee]

I don’t think Pure Heart was a Catholic, but a Muslim female putting out feelers here, and decided not to stay.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think what is disconcerting about one of the posts by the FreeRepublic was in fact its date.

It was dated going into the 2nd week of October 2002, and there was a rage of interest in the Muslim communities across the USA about America now having been discovered by a Muslim, that a Muslim had to guide Columbus to this and there…

And this is about 13 months after 9/11.

It frightens me of the lack of reciprocity and humanity our newcomers have to our country—it has created its own gifts to make it desirable beyond Islam – and that there are those now with the death of thousands of people using this as a new incentive to start staking our grounds???

I read a piece today from St. Peter, Acts 10: 34 - 43…I have shared with Planten a number of times in the past that Christ deliberately drew on witnesses…not one but 12…and I draw on this thread that Our God is the God of the Living…and the need to be forgiving and ask for forgiveness.

‘In truth, I see that God shows no partiality. Rather, in every nation whoever fears Him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him. You know the word that he sent to the Israelites as he proclaimed peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all, what has happened all over Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached, how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all those oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. We are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree. This man God raised on the third day and granted that he be visible, not to all the people, but to us, the witnesses chosen by God in advance, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. He commissioned us to preach to the people and testify that he is the one appointed by God as judge of the living and the dead. To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone who believes in him will receive forgiveness of sins through his name’
–St. Peter Himself…

You can’t give what you don’t have…and we do have forgiveness for our sins…and through Christ and His power, we are able to forgive others and to ask forgiveness.
This is a great strength I see in Christianity vs Islam.

 

[seraphime2008]

It was dated going into the 2nd week of October 2002, and there was a rage of interest in the Muslim communities across the USA about America now having been discovered by a Muslim, that a Muslim had to guide Columbus to this and there…

Isn’t that not a surprise at all?! They’ve done it before, they would surely do that again:

The Islamic connection to Jerusalem is older than the Jewish. The Palestinian “minister” of religious endowments asserts that Jerusalem has “always” been under Muslim sovereignty. Likewise, Ghada Talhami, a polemicist, asserts that “There are other holy cities in Islam, but Jerusalem holds a special place in the hearts and minds of Muslims because its fate has always been intertwined with theirs.” Always? Jerusalem’s founding antedated Islam by about two millennia, so how can that be? Ibrahim Hooper of the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations explains this anachronism: “the Muslim attachment to Jerusalem does not begin with the prophet Muhammad, it begins with the prophets Abraham, David, Solomon and Jesus, who are also prophets in Islam.” In other words, the central figures of Judaism and Christianity were really proto-Muslims. This accounts for the Palestinian man-in-the-street declaring that “Jerusalem was Arab from the day of creation.”

quotation from:
danielpipes.org/84/the-muslim-claim-to-jerusalem

 

[KathleenGee]

Seraphine,

I did bring that up about the false claim to Jerusalem.

A community of Muslims was created on the outskirts of my neighorhood. I had occurred some car damage and they lied about it, but were caught. I was insulted dealing with them, and reported this to the insurance companies.

They are more integrated now. And some times I get a draw to make relationships with them…

But it is frightening now to realize Muslims across America were all on fire a year after 9/11, thinking it was a Muslim who discovered America…

It is the callousness to the suffering of other people, and this continual and overriding lust to take over and control, and be on top. Pride.

One of the saints said hell has no doors. People can get out but won’t because their pride won’t let them.

Again, I must immerse my self in Mary for protection and to help me maintain charity, and to pray for these people’s conversion. I believe Mary is the link, the key for the conversion of Islam.

And no matter how much they brag about their religion and try to teach us their false ideas about Christianity, a son of a leader of Hamas is laying down his life for Christ, his life is endangered now, but he says this militant Islam we see is imploding within and should come about in 10 years or so…there are people leaving Islam and finding new life in Jesus.

We ask Mary to join our prayers with hers for their conversion and to maintain charity to them.

 

[seraphime2008]

Ameen, Kathleen.