Contemplation and Mysticism

[TrueLight]

Nice signature picture btw

Thanks! It reminds me of what mass is about.

I agree with JMJ. The Immitation is not about anything. It does not have a thesis as do other writings in spirituality. It’s a series of reflections about everything that comes up on our journey. I’m not even sure if Kempis called it The Immitation of Christ. I think that title may have been given by someone else. The title is taken from his introductory reflection. You can’t give it a better one, because he doesn’t stay on one subject. Its beauty is that each reflection is free standing. You don’t have to read it from cover to cover. You can open to whatever topic is necessary for you that day. It’s not like you miss something if you open up #24 without reading the first 23 entries.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Maybe we can start a thread on it, what do you say Br. Jay?

Although I think there is, or was one, in the book club, but most people are barred from seeing the conversation unless they are book club members right?

 

[TrueLight]

I haven’t started reading a lot of Bonaventure yet, but I was referred to a book called Simply Bonaventure: An Introduction to His Life Thought and Writings by Sister Ilia Delio, OSF.

Sister Ilia has studied St. Bonaventure extensively and I hear her book is very good. She gave a series of presentations at the SFO annual regional gathering in my area last month. My brain is still trying to comprehend the massive amounts of information she presented.

I love St Bonaventure because of the prayer that is in the 1962 missal, but I just looked up a section in the Journey of the Mind into God.

1. Moreover since whatever of the aforesaid manners is joined together, according to which one happens to consider God as the Alpha and the Omega, or inasmuch as one happens to see God in any one of the aforesaid manners as through a mirror and as in a mirror, or because one of these considerations is has been mixed up with another conjoined with itself, and has to be considered in its purity; hence it is, that it is necessary, that these three principle steps ascend towards a group of six, so that, as God in six days perfected the entire world and on the seventh rested; so the microcosm is itself lead forth in six steps of illumination proceeding upwards in a most ordered manner towards the quiet of contemplation. In the figure of which one ascended in six steps towards the throne of Solomon; the Seraphim, which Isaiah saw, had six wings; after six days the Lord called Moses from the midst of gloom, and Christ after six days, as is said in Matthew, led the disciples unto the mountain and was transfigured before them.

Whoah!

 

[FurtherSuntime]

I see the problem here. No, the word “intense” or the expression “intense prayer” is used in Spiritual Theology to describe a life of constant prayer.

If it were obsessive, it would be a pathalogy, not a virtue.

Intense prayer, on the other hand, is the placing of self in the constant presence of God, whether one is on his knees in front of the tabernacle, at liturgy, at recollection or at work.

St. Jose Maria describes the latter very well. He speaks of taking the ordinary and turning it into prayer. He’s referring to the work of daily life, whatever that may be for each of us. In other words, one does not have to stop praying because we have to teach, go to the office, take care of the kids, walk the dog, etc. Those daily duties can be done as prayer when we offer them to the Lord and we do them for the Lord. Therefore, we do them to the best of our ability. It’s not always going to be perfect, but it should always be the best that we can do.

St. Jose Maria is thinking along the same lines as St. Benedict, St. Francis and St. Therese. Benedict use the term “ora et labora” (pray and work). Francis said, “Everyone shall work, for the Lord also worked.” Therese said, “Do the small things with great love.” All of them were raising the intent of work. Work ceases to be an end in itself, and becomes another means to achieve holiness. In that sense, it becomes part of our life of prayer. The classic definition of prayer is raising the mind and heart to God. One can do this while washing the car too. Don’t stop when you put down your rosary.

Does that help?

As to your other question, no I’m not a priest. I’m a religious. In our community everyone is Brother, ordained or not. We don’t distinguish. Actually, in the entire Franciscan family there is no distinction. In the 20th century, people began to call ordained brothers, Father, because they were used to doing that with other priests. It stuck.

Today, the movement is to go back to the roots of the order. Some Franciscan communities use Brother, others use Friar and some just go with the flow, because it’s not a major issue as long as the ordained are not singularized.

You will find Franciscans who are not ordained but are theologians, spiritual directors, parish administrators, superiors, novice masters, formators, medical doctors, teachers, etc.

You will also find ordained Franciscans who are writers, parish priests, confessors, directors of soup kitchens, running homeless shelters, doing street ministry, on mission teams.

And everyone gets to do laundry, cook, scrub floors, and whatever else it takes to run the house and the ministry.

For example, I was a superior. Now I’m on the formation team and I teach spiritual theology to those in formation and I run a diocesan formation ministry for men in crisis pregnancies, teach and preach. Since I’ve done a lot of teaching, when I joined CAF I couldn’t think of a really snazzy name, so I chose my initials and education, hence JReducation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I had to delete a bit of above in order to fit my entry .

I am very relieved to understand recognition of St Jose Maria’s approach to be worthy… The whole idea of presence in his teachings is something which can be adapted in mindset and become an accepted , self understood natural process.

The architecture of the idea is profound and is not intense.
Since reading , I have found the building blocks used in this construction to
enhance and allow an easy natural progress which I feel has value.

If theology wants to use the word intense for value in prayer then it is mistaken by word definition. Intense Websters , existing in high degree, violent ,vehement.

I’m sorry but Ive never seen the word used and it seemed a very odd and suggestive insertion, relative to my initial question.

As you explain in above , I believe we are on the same page.

The answer with respects to my question, why has there been no occurrence in reports of seeing God in all of Spiritualism is interesting
and easy to follow.

If no reports of visions or the like of Our Lord or BVM were in occurrence theology would un-doubted ly provide another answer. A speculation which would not fall far from the wondering Its an answer which makes good sense with many additional reasons available to be sure.

I find it curious in light of high Spiritual claim throughout mysticism , together with the history of known Saints. So was simply asking what was known

 

[Julia_Mae]

So my question is determined for what …To express a natural love for God , or a forced impatient need for recognition.?

It’s neither of those. It’s this, I think:

“a naked intent stretching to God”

In my experience, it's less a thing you do than a grace you receive. 

You aren't trying to *do* anything, really.  It's just yearning, sort of.  It doesn't feel "intense."  Not to me.  (I hope Br. JR will comment on that.) I mean by that it isn't like some things that feel very *uplifting* or emotional.  I guess you can do this in a group, but I think it's best done alone.  If you can use the word "done" at all.  I did use to fall into contemplation on the bus, but no one around me would have been able to tell.  

It's just a quiet thing.

 

[hazcompat]

Thanks! It reminds me of what mass is about.

Maybe we can start a thread on it, what do you say Br. Jay?

Although I think there is, or was one, in the book club, but most people are barred from seeing the conversation unless they are book club members right?

I read four separate translations, and keep a pdf copy on my laptop. The Lord made it a part of my life for more than a decade. I get i yen for it from time to time. I agree starting out you may want other sources, but the imitation can stay with you till the end. I read to burn.

peace

 

[FurtherSuntime]

For prayer to flourish or show true liveliness throughout mans time on earth, the approach to prayer must grow.

Growth is forward, not backward. While it is essential and helpful to “understand and apply the ancient approach” it represents a template not an absolute. This is not understood in this thread and needs to be said. The paradox is left un-attended through mimic in borrowed experience where without individual creativity, individual experience is without. A prayer without true content

Alive today , further ripples in the understandings could not help but grow out of these fine holy individuals If the mystics of note were alive today, it would sadden the initiative, as there is nothing added in all. Present man helps himself to the past exploration and walks away contributing nothing.
.
Remember, no one comes to me but through the Father. All have a unique calling , all are unique. The contemporary mystic annuls his purpose in the journey which in fact belongs to someone else…it is not real. We all have our unique calling.

We are a bleep in the contribution to prayer. A bleep as their is no progress to already understood achievement. Focused attention in past understandings opens the door only it is merely a reliance, without contribution.

The understandings are a consequence of lives lived. One cannot borrow a consequence, one must live it…out on the playing field.

Theres no escape fellow members , its very simple…in order to be truly Charitable, one must feel the pain and need out of care, to relieve. Theres nothing more. It is very simple.

Everyone wants to talk about prayer but no one has connected the dots to the center of prayer, the soul. What is the soul relative to this threads progression? Why is this question left on the curb?

 

[JReducation]

I am very relieved to understand recognition of St Jose Maria’s approach to be worthy.

St. José María’s approach is not new. It’s very classic. Many people find it difficult to appreciate, because the language that he uses is very contemporary. But when you see it as he lived it and as his followers live it you can’t help see Benedictine, Franciscan and Carmelite elements. To understand him, one must begin with a clear understanding that this was a secular man. He has to take these paradigms out of the conventual context and apply them in the secular context. The language is going to change as the context changes, but the concept is the same. It’s very orthodox.

If theology wants to use the word intense for value in prayer then it is mistaken by word definition. Intense Websters , existing in high degree, violent ,vehement.

Good gravy! Never depend on any dictionary to understand theology. Dictionaries will always give you the most common usage. To understand how theology uses a word or phrase, use the writings themselves and take the meaning from the context.

It’s neither of those. It’s this, I think:

“a naked intent stretching to God”

I think the author of the The Cloud captures it in this statement. Teresa describes it as “intense yearning”. Bonaventure describes it a an “aspiration.”

You aren’t trying to do anything, really. It’s just yearning, sort of. It doesn’t feel “intense.” Not to me.

It does not feel intense, because the meaning that we give to this word is not the same as Francisco de Osuna uses when he coined the term or as Teresa did when she repeats it in her autobiography. I guess other contemporary words that we could use would be “profound” or “deep”.

I read to burn.

I like that.

 

[JReducation]

For prayer to flourish or show true liveliness throughout mans time on earth, the approach to prayer must grow.

That’s why I said earlier to someone, I can’t remember who, the point is to begin. The Lord will lead. You go through the leadership of the Holy Spirit, without even knowing it.

Growth is forward, not backward. While it is essential and helpful to “understand and apply the ancient approach” it represents a template not an absolute. This is not understood in this thread and needs to be said.

I don’t know that it’s not being understood. I would disagree with that. I think it’s not being said, because it is understood. Now, we have to be careful here. Some of the guidelines have been given to us as absolutes and for some people they are absolutes. They are not universal absolutes.

For example, if you are either a Franciscan or a Discalced Carmelite, Francis and Teresa handed down their template as absolutes. Both of them command that it be followed to the letter under holy obedience to them. That’s why you don’t see much coming out on prayer from either Franciscans or Discalced Carmelites. The Patriarch and Matriarch have spoken. The case is closed. What you often find are commentaries on the template. They are not seen as something that you can improve upon. They are what they are and they are what make a Franciscan a son of St. Francis or a Discalced Carmelite a son of St. Teresa. Neither of them imposed it on the world. In that regard, they are not absolutes. I think that they never imagined that the world would be interested, because they felt that what they had to say was very simple. To us, it’s not simple.

The paradox is left un-attended through mimic in borrowed experience where without individual creativity, individual experience is without. A prayer without true content

The context is our daily life. One can mimic the method, but the fact that I’m not Francis or Teresa, but Me, right there the context changes.

Present man helps himself to the past exploration and walks away contributing nothing.

Correct me if I’m misunderstanding you. We do help ourselves to what has been handed down, but it is not always possible to contribute anything new, because Truth does not change. So much of these teachings are absolute truth. One can see it when one holds it up against the tradition of scripture and the Church. We can express it in different social and cultural contexts, but we can’t improve on truth.

.
Remember, no one comes to me but through the Father. All have a unique calling , all are unique. The contemporary mystic annuls his purpose in the journey which in fact belongs to someone else…it is not real. We all have our unique calling.

I don’t think that’s what we’re saying here. It’s certainly not what we teach in Spiritual Theology. However, we do teach the Masters, not only the masters in contemplation, but also the Masters in the spiritual life. Contemplation is one part of it. The journey is individual. However, we are often called to walk the journey in someone’s footsteps. This where I go back to the Franciscan and Discalced Carmelite Traditions. Both families are very clear that the individual has been called to the Father, through Christ, but they get there by walking in the steps of Francis or Teresa and that’s why he or she can’t be anything else but Franciscan or Carmelite.

If it were “not real” to walk to the Father in someone else’s steps, we would have to annul certain religious traditions that are built upon the steps of specific individuals. Try telling a Franciscan or a Discalced Carmelite that he or she has to walk a “unique” journey from that of Francis or Teresa and they kick you in the shins. Francis and Teresa are the teachers. Bonaventure writes about this in a famous work The Disciple and the Master and he uses a very interesting line from scripture to drive home his point.

He says that Francis can say “Walk in my footsteps for I’m truly meek and humble of heart, because I am the perfect disciple of the Master and I will lead you to the Master who will give you rest.” He goes on to explain that Francis did exactly what Jesus said when he made that statement. Those who want to do what Jesus said must simply walk in Francis’ footsteps. What he’s telling us is that the masters of the spiritual life are not just holy people, they are teachers and you begin the journey by walking in the teacher’s footsteps. Where the Lord leads is up to the Lord.

Everyone wants to talk about prayer but no one has connected the dots to the center of prayer, the soul. What is the soul relative to this threads progression? Why is this question left on the curb?

I think you have two things going on here. One is more obvious than the other. The first thing that is going on here is that in an internet forum, there is not much room or even time to get into the more profound details of the spiritual life, because not everyone is in the same room having this conversation at the same time. When people come on board, they write about what’s on their mind at that moment.

The second thing, which may not be as obvious, is that not everyone is well versed in Spiritual Theology. It’s a highly specialized academic area. That’s the reason that it’s not taught in seminaries. Those of us who studied it had to go on for post-graduate work after the seminary. The seminary gave us a one-semester course with an overview of the major figures in the spiritual life. It was not really meant to teach others, but to help us grow in our own life of prayer, charity and fidelity. There are people who have a divine grace called infused knowledge. These folks don’t have to go on for graduate degrees; but they are the exception, not the rule.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Julia_Mae]

It does not feel intense, because the meaning that we give to this word is not the same as Francisco de Osuna uses when he coined the term or as Teresa did when she repeats it in her autobiography. I guess other contemporary words that we could use would be “profound” or “deep”.:

Thank you, that was why I hoped you’d comment. I was speaking to the common definition and having some other words helps. It’s like “ecstasy” I think. Not the meaning everyone would expect. But there aren’t any English words, really. I wonder if the east has one? I wonder if this is the same for them? You’d think so… maybe not …

It occurred to me that maybe pointing out the obvious is important. Just in case. It isn’t like everyone should do this, I don’t think, anyway. People have a lot of ways they are called to holiness. This way is not more holy.

I personally think I was called to contemplation because I was such a spiritual dunce, and God really wanted to catch me up. It was like special tutoring for the dumb kid. I converted in my 40s. I really did need the extra help.

Still do, come to that.

 

[hazcompat]

Individual creativity?..God said…He said WHAT? All is grace.

deep peace

 

[JReducation]

Thank you, that was why I hoped you’d comment. I was speaking to the common definition and having some other words helps. It’s like “ecstasy” I think. Not the meaning everyone would expect. But there aren’t any English words, really. I wonder if the east has one? I wonder if this is the same for them? You’d think so… maybe not …

It occurred to me that maybe pointing out the obvious is important. Just in case. It isn’t like everyone should do this, I don’t think, anyway. People have a lot of ways they are called to holiness. This way is not more holy.

I personally think I was called to contemplation because I was such a spiritual dunce, and God really wanted to catch me up. It was like special tutoring for the dumb kid. I converted in my 40s. I really did need the extra help.

Still do, come to that.

I go back to our modern day mystics. I always tell people, "If you want to see someone who prays intensely, go back watch a video (not an actor) of Bl. John Paul II and Bl. Mother Teresa. They could be surrounded by hundreds of thousands or alone, but when they prayed you could ring the Liberty Bell next to them and they were not rattled. Their attention was on God.

I remember seein Bl. John Paul several times at prayer. My first time was a WYD in Denver. I remember observing how during the reading of the Scriptures he would lean his head and support it with one hand. The people there who were near him said that they actually heard grunts and moaning coming from him. He would go into a moment of solitude where it seemed as if the only two people in the world were himself and Christ. I was invited to attend one of his masses at the Vatican and I saw close up what others had noticed at WYD. He was unaware that you were there. Then, he would look at you and continue the mass as if nothing unusual had happened.

There is a beautiful story about him and Mother Teresa. She had a private meeting with him. When she entered the room, he was sitting and seemed to be in prayer. Mother waited for him to speak, but he didn’t. So she knelt near the door and prayed. It was almost 20 minutes before either of them spoke to each other.

It’s as Teresa of Avila said, you enter into a dialogue with a friend, as St. Augustine said, with the Beloved, you’re not really too interested in anything else around you. It reaches a point where it’s deeper than the gaze of two young lovers who are looking at each other and are unaware that everyone is staring at them.

Just like two lovers don’t get there overnight, neither does the man or woman of prayer. It’s a journey where God leads the way, stripping the soul of the obstacles to the encounter with the Source.

We just have to begin to pray and the Holy Spirit does the rest.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Individual creativity?..God said…He said WHAT? All is grace.

deep peace

Well…the ability in your human existence includes a consciousness which is able to have an abstract thought. Lets say you are praying and want to comprehend the words which you have repeated time and time again. You will require the creative deployment of your imaginative mind.in order to connect your mind to the words you are actually saying.

The ability and use of the creative mind allows Spirituality to …“happen”
The family pet for example cannot have a creative, abstract thought.
Does this help?

I guess I will answer the interesting Jreducation after a few chores, I certainly hope everyone is enjoying the delightful day,it is just beautiful out.

 

[hazcompat]

Well…the ability in your human existence includes a consciousness which is able to have an abstract thought. Lets say you are praying and want to comprehend the words which you have repeated time and time again. You will require the creative deployment of your imaginative mind.in order to connect your mind to the words you are actually saying.

The ability and use of the creative mind allows Spirituality to …“happen”
The family pet for example cannot have a creative, abstract thought.
Does this help?

I guess I will answer the interesting Jreducation after a few chores, I certainly hope everyone is enjoying the delightful day,it is just beautiful out.

This is the day the Lord has made… The creative mind allows? Seems like the tail wagging the dog?

peace

 

[Celticnovice]

I have been reading on these forums and I have a question. What is the traditional Catholics attitude toward Contemplation and Mysticism? It seems that many modern practices (advocated by various authors to remain unnamed) are immediately dismissed as new age mumbo jumbo and anti-catholic. On the other had I am sure that many traditional Catholics find great comfort in the works of St. John of the Cross and St. Theresa of Avila etc. So where is the fine line? Are the historic mystics ok and anyone claiming to have a contemplative method today considered a whack job?
As someone who would like to expand their spiritual practice and seek greater unity with the indwelling trinity I am having a hard time finding practices that aren’t condemned in one way or another. I have settled on the Jesus Prayer as the method that seems best, although i am sure there is probably something wrong with that too.

You should check out an Ignation retreat, many parishes offer them during Lent. In fact, there is even some on-line Ignation retreats if you do a google search. Contemplation is a HUGE part of Traditional Catholicism IMHO. I for one am glad that we (Catholics) are becoming in touch with our mystical roots/practices again.

 

[JReducation]

Well…the ability in your human existence includes a consciousness which is able to have an abstract thought. Lets say you are praying and want to comprehend the words which you have repeated time and time again. You will require the creative deployment of your imaginative mind.in order to connect your mind to the words you are actually saying.

The ability and use of the creative mind allows Spirituality to …“happen”
The family pet for example cannot have a creative, abstract thought.
Does this help?

I guess I will answer the interesting Jreducation after a few chores, I certainly hope everyone is enjoying the delightful day,it is just beautiful out.

You have to be careful not to give man too much control. There is a point in contemplation where the individual must release control and where God takes over the imagination and speaks through it to the man or woman of prayer. As he progresses, even the imagination no longer works and God speaks directly to the soul, but the individual does not always know what transpires between the soul and God. Bonaventure, Catherine and Teresa make this very clear in their writings.

This is the day the Lord has made… The creative mind allows? Seems like the tail wagging the dog?

peace

Yeah, the allows is not exactly what happens. Human freedom is needed to consent to God’s opeation. How God operates is up to God.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Jreducation

St. José María’s approach is not new. It’s very classic. Many people find it difficult to appreciate, because the language that he uses is very contemporary. But when you see it as he lived it and as his followers live it you can’t help see Benedictine, Franciscan and Carmelite elements. To understand him, one must begin with a clear understanding that this was a secular man. He has to take these paradigms out of the conventual context and apply them in the secular context. The language is going to change as the context changes, but the concept is the same. It’s very orthodox.

F Suntime

I see a more clear to the point approach is required.
I asked a question about the nature of Gods association with humanity and why visions have been reported re Saints, Jesus Mary, and if you were aware of any with respects to God himself.
You explained no, and offered possible reasoning. Then you gave a few examples in extraordinary happenings and included that these events are
only possible in the occasion of a believer who is engaged in, intense prayer. I argued logically on behalf of the Fatima Story. As well added
the approach within St Jose and opus dei suggesting a worthy approach to prayer in a day to day life application

In return you chose to ignore my interesting observations

Instead above you go on to discuss that the idea of opus dei is not new. Ok, whats that got to do with the observation I was bringing forward ? Why are you formulating a suggestive that I am arguing that opus dei is not a new idea? Clearly the opus dei approach cannot be translated onto a category of intense prayer as it is a daily initiative offering an ambiance in presence of mind. Once developed the life is the prayer. The prayer you refer to “intense prayer” is non-applicable . A person cannot be in a state of intensity 24-7. The implied idea that intense prayer is a plateau using happenings is illogical. We know this… if you want to skirt around avoiding being wrong-in a post thats fine,although…if your going to use parts of the argument to mis-represent myself in a mis-leading manner , I will speak to it .
.
JReducation

Good gravy! Never depend on any dictionary to understand theology. Dictionaries will always give you the most common usage. To understand how theology uses a word or phrase, use the writings themselves and take the meaning from the context.

F Suntime

Good baloney… This is not a theology book written in 1242. the context is this forum and on-going (for the moment) discussion. Also, its natural to
adjust in older books, run on sentence’s historical events, all contribute in extracting the baloney from the gravy.

The next post looks more interesting…I was reading your thoughts re Pope John Paul and Mother Theresa.

How can you affirm the on-goings of another’s mind to the point where you think you know why a persons is grunting or what have you. How do you also know that the Pope did not nod off waiting for St Theresa , woke and decided not to interrupt her praying?

I know many that can nod off sitting down after lunch. In fact I used to play a little game with some of the people I knew who would be prone to falling asleep sitting up… I would tell a story , a softer easy going story and use my voice and timing to see if I could directly cause. Using these imagined physic powers as apparatus for added understanding in the interior life is not wise, much less someone else’s state of soul.

In the imaginative suggestion having this ability, when confronted with what may wrongly appear to be a sinner, the mind thinks it has this power and erroneous evaluation is inevitable. A harmful projection of suggestion at an unconscious level…this can become a habitual practice
I would recommend a thread called… Be warned and Believe what you Truly Will.right here in this forum

Thats enough for me today, its lovely out , peace enjoy the day and maybe I’ll be bk Monday…Ive had enough of defending myself for a good few days…all from a simple question…life is what it is I suppose… can’t see much reason to return.
Must be cheerful, we were meant to be cheerful…cheers!

Oh I see a couple more interesting posts:thumbsup:

 

[hazcompat]

… , even the imagination no longer works and God speaks directly to the soul, but the individual does not always know what transpires between the soul and God. Bonaventure, Catherine and Teresa make this very clear in their writings.
Br. JR, OSF

there is a remnant left in the interior intellect which the mind uses. Irrespective of cognitive capacity. Contemplation happens in time. The mystical in “no time”.

peace

 

[hazcompat]

…
Thats enough for me today, its lovely out , peace enjoy the day and maybe I’ll be bk Monday…Ive had enough of defending myself for a good few days…all from a simple question…life is what it is I suppose… can’t see much reason to return.
Must be cheerful, we were meant to be cheerful…cheers!

Oh I see a couple more interesting posts:thumbsup:

No need to be defensive. Have you read the Tao of Pooh? Your exits are Poohish…no offense intended.

peace

 

[FurtherSuntime]

This is the day the Lord has made… The creative mind allows? Seems like the tail wagging the dog?

peace

The theist cannot trump up consciousness , turn around and deny its role in the same sentence. Some degree of common sense is required…

 

[FurtherSuntime]

No need to be defensive. Have you read the Tao of Pooh? Your exits are Poohish…no offense intended.

peace

Offence caused in self admitted need for explanation in intent … pleading for non defence…?

Wow, unbelievable.