B
Bookcat
Guest
Right such is a psydo-mysticism - an heretical approach.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
FYI, Quiet Prayer, or Prayer of Quiet, not to be confused with “quietism.”
Prayer of Quiet
newadvent.org/cathen/12608b.htm
Jim
Prayer of Quiet
newadvent.org/cathen/12608b.htm
Jim
B
Bookcat
Guest
Yes of course.
And quiet prayer is not be confused with “prayer of quiet”. (I know you wrote “or” there but I note for readers).
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
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billcu1
Guest
What in the Sam Hill is psydo-mysticism? It works or it doesn’t. A heretical approach? Oh my gosh. Something else to fear I guess. Well However you want it I guess.
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Bookcat
Guest
Quiet prayer does not per se = prayer of quiet.
If one prays in silence - engages in silent or quiet prayer - such does not mean one has received the grace of “the prayer of quiet”.
Often yes such a grace is more apt to come after one has been in the habit of praying in silence for some while. If such a grace comes.
And prayer of quiet can happen outside of quiet prayer.
B
Bookcat
Guest
“psydo mysticism” is “false mysticism” - that which can appear to be good but is not.
Quietism is yes a heretical approach. Not my call but that of the Church.
No it does not “work” (which is very funny to put it that way-- for part of problem with quietism is it disorderly passive
)
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billcu1
Guest
What’s disorderly passive?“psydo mysticism” is “false mysticism” - that which can appear to be good but is not.
Quietism is yes a heretical approach. Not my call but that of the Church.
No it does not “work” (which is very funny to put it that way-- for part of problem with quietism is it disorderly passive
B
Bookcat
Guest
Such as…
… never making acts of love or faith or the other virtues…being totally passive …not caring even about heaven…or hell…
…not even loving God…etc.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Bookcat
Prayer of Quiet can happen outside of silent prayer, but that’s what I’ve said before.
As the Encyclopedia states, “Prayer of Quiet is a degree of contemplation.” Experts in the Church are now agreeing that degrees of contemplation are far greater than once understood.
The grace God gives which turns the soul toward a deeper relationship with Him, is the beginning of the Prayer of Quiet. What that level is, only God knows and he alone is the one who calls a soul to Him.
Quiet Prayer, and not just sitting quietly in a method of prayer, is the beginning level of Contemplation. It is God revealing himself to the intellect and heart, regardless of how subtle it is.
The OP of this thread has stated that he is being called in this direction, which his priest has also told him may be happening.
As the Encyclopedia states;
The method of quieting the facilities to be open to God, is not, Quiet Prayer/Prayer of Quiet, but a method of helping the soul to be open to God’s presence.
As far as terms go, it’s interesting to know that the doctors of the Church have been debating the meaning of Contemplation and the levels of it, for centuries. St Teresa and St John of the Cross, never used the term, “Contemplation.”
“Western Mysticism: Augustine, Gregory, and Bernard on Contemplation and the Contemplative Life,” by Dom Cuthbert Butler, begins with the debate and but only concludes in that God’s grace given in prayer is a mystery.
Not everyone who sits silently praying is arriving at acquired or infused contemplation, but hopefully by being open to God, they will receive the gift.
Jim
It does, but we’re having a difference of terms here.
Of course. One doesn’t receive the grace of Contemplation from any method of prayer itself, as I stated before, It comes from God alone, and takes place according to God, and can be received praying the Rosary, Liturgy of the Hours, or just sitting silently repeating Jesus name. I’m not talking about method of prayer here, but a method of prayer is usually used to be open to God’s grace of Contemplation. I say usually, because other means God may use to reach a soul.
It can come in an instant, if that is what God desires. It doesn’t necessarily take decades of empty praying with words of rote before God desires to bless a soul with the gift of contemplation. Contemplation is what takes place between God and the soul of the person seeking Him.
They are the same.
Prayer of Quiet can happen outside of silent prayer, but that’s what I’ve said before.
As the Encyclopedia states, “Prayer of Quiet is a degree of contemplation.” Experts in the Church are now agreeing that degrees of contemplation are far greater than once understood.
The grace God gives which turns the soul toward a deeper relationship with Him, is the beginning of the Prayer of Quiet. What that level is, only God knows and he alone is the one who calls a soul to Him.
Quiet Prayer, and not just sitting quietly in a method of prayer, is the beginning level of Contemplation. It is God revealing himself to the intellect and heart, regardless of how subtle it is.
The OP of this thread has stated that he is being called in this direction, which his priest has also told him may be happening.
As the Encyclopedia states;
This takes place when the soul is called to Contemplative Prayer, Quiet Prayer or Prayer of Quiet, or whatever term you want to use, by God Himself.
The method of quieting the facilities to be open to God, is not, Quiet Prayer/Prayer of Quiet, but a method of helping the soul to be open to God’s presence.
As far as terms go, it’s interesting to know that the doctors of the Church have been debating the meaning of Contemplation and the levels of it, for centuries. St Teresa and St John of the Cross, never used the term, “Contemplation.”
“Western Mysticism: Augustine, Gregory, and Bernard on Contemplation and the Contemplative Life,” by Dom Cuthbert Butler, begins with the debate and but only concludes in that God’s grace given in prayer is a mystery.
Not everyone who sits silently praying is arriving at acquired or infused contemplation, but hopefully by being open to God, they will receive the gift.
Jim
B
Bookcat
Guest
Prayer in silence – is prayer in silence. And wonderful it is.
If one is given the grace of the *prayer of quiet *within that praying in silence (in quiet) that is up to God. But “quiet prayer” does not per se = “prayer of quiet” (not the same thing) in the technical term in Spiritual Theology.
Have a good night.
If one is given the grace of the *prayer of quiet *within that praying in silence (in quiet) that is up to God. But “quiet prayer” does not per se = “prayer of quiet” (not the same thing) in the technical term in Spiritual Theology.
Have a good night.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Yes silence …
As the Carthusians note in their statutes (not exact quote) - drawing from their Father Saint Bruno - the fruit that silence brings is known to the person who has experienced it.
“Silence is the environmental condition most conducive to contemplation, to listening to God and to meditation. The very fact of enjoying silence and letting ourselves be “filled”, so to speak, with silence, disposes us to prayer.” ~ Pope Benedict XVI August 2011
As the Carthusians note in their statutes (not exact quote) - drawing from their Father Saint Bruno - the fruit that silence brings is known to the person who has experienced it.
“Silence is the environmental condition most conducive to contemplation, to listening to God and to meditation. The very fact of enjoying silence and letting ourselves be “filled”, so to speak, with silence, disposes us to prayer.” ~ Pope Benedict XVI August 2011
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gabriel40
Guest
Scala Paradisi Letter of Dom Guigo the Carthusian to Brother Gervase about the Contemplative Life
The Fourth Chapter:
Of the Third and Fourth Rungs: Prayer and Contemplation
Then when we see that to the knowing or to the feeling of this wisdom we may not come nor reach by ourselves, and the more we think to travail to climb there, the more we see what the Godhead does, then we see our strength and our intelligence are nought, and we begin to know ourself, and as a poor needy wretch we humble ourself and fall down meekly with a lowly heart to pray, and say,
‘Lord, you will not be seen, but by those who are clean of heart. I have done what is in me to do, read and thought deeply and searched what it is and in what manner I might best come to this cleanness that I might somewhat know you. Lord, I have sought and thought with all my poor heart; and, Lord, in my meditation the fire of desire kindles to know you, not only the bitter bark without, in feeling and tasting in my soul. Lord, this worthiness I ask not for myself, * for I am wretched and sinful and most unworthy than all others. But as much, Lord, as the puppy eats of the crumbs that fall from the board of the lord, I ask of the heritage that is to come one drop of the heavenly joy to comfort my thirsty soul that burns in love-longing to you’.
With these and other such desires the heart is enflamed. God is called and prayed as the dear spouse that is to come to this mourning soul that languishes in love. What does God then, whose help is ever upon the righteous and our ear at our prayer? He doesn’t wait until the prayer is fully ended, but he pierces in the midst of the burning desire of that thirsty soul, and with a secret balm of heavenly sweetness softens the soul and comforts it, and makes it be so overcome with delight and joy that it forgets all earthly things for that hour, and he makes it to lose itself in wonder, as if it were dead from knowing ourself. And as in fleshly works we are so overcome that we lose the guidance of reason and so become all fleshly, right so in the ladder of contemplation our fleshly stirrings are so cancelled out that the flesh does not win over the spirit but is become all spiritual.
But, Lord, by what thing may we know when you do this, and what is the token of your coming? Are sighs and tears the messengers of this liking and comfort? And if it be so, it seems marvellous, it seems uncommon, that comfort comes with sighs and joy with tears. And it seems they should not be called tears, but a heavenly dew that comes from above, that moistens without, and cleanses the soul within, as comes about in the sacrament of baptism. The outer washing with tears means the inner washing. They are innocent tears, through which outer washing the inner spots are taken away, and the fire of sin is quenched. Blessed are those who weep thus, for Christ says of them they shall laugh. In these tears the soul recognizes God, its true Spouse. This is the solace your loving Spouse gives to you, sighs mingled with tears. But, dearworthy Lord, since these sighs and these tears are so sweet that come from you and liking of great joy, what joy, Lord, and comfort shall your lovers and your chosen have of you when they shall know you and see you as you are! But how of a thing that is so hidden and so unknown can we speak to others that they may understand, since none can understand it unless they have felt it, as those to whom God has sent to a joy and liking of him as to taste here what kind he is and shall be in sweetness to his lovers without end? For all that men read and may hear in books that ought to be read, is unsavoury, unless the heart understands it.
The Fourth Chapter:
Of the Third and Fourth Rungs: Prayer and Contemplation
Then when we see that to the knowing or to the feeling of this wisdom we may not come nor reach by ourselves, and the more we think to travail to climb there, the more we see what the Godhead does, then we see our strength and our intelligence are nought, and we begin to know ourself, and as a poor needy wretch we humble ourself and fall down meekly with a lowly heart to pray, and say,
‘Lord, you will not be seen, but by those who are clean of heart. I have done what is in me to do, read and thought deeply and searched what it is and in what manner I might best come to this cleanness that I might somewhat know you. Lord, I have sought and thought with all my poor heart; and, Lord, in my meditation the fire of desire kindles to know you, not only the bitter bark without, in feeling and tasting in my soul. Lord, this worthiness I ask not for myself, * for I am wretched and sinful and most unworthy than all others. But as much, Lord, as the puppy eats of the crumbs that fall from the board of the lord, I ask of the heritage that is to come one drop of the heavenly joy to comfort my thirsty soul that burns in love-longing to you’.
With these and other such desires the heart is enflamed. God is called and prayed as the dear spouse that is to come to this mourning soul that languishes in love. What does God then, whose help is ever upon the righteous and our ear at our prayer? He doesn’t wait until the prayer is fully ended, but he pierces in the midst of the burning desire of that thirsty soul, and with a secret balm of heavenly sweetness softens the soul and comforts it, and makes it be so overcome with delight and joy that it forgets all earthly things for that hour, and he makes it to lose itself in wonder, as if it were dead from knowing ourself. And as in fleshly works we are so overcome that we lose the guidance of reason and so become all fleshly, right so in the ladder of contemplation our fleshly stirrings are so cancelled out that the flesh does not win over the spirit but is become all spiritual.
But, Lord, by what thing may we know when you do this, and what is the token of your coming? Are sighs and tears the messengers of this liking and comfort? And if it be so, it seems marvellous, it seems uncommon, that comfort comes with sighs and joy with tears. And it seems they should not be called tears, but a heavenly dew that comes from above, that moistens without, and cleanses the soul within, as comes about in the sacrament of baptism. The outer washing with tears means the inner washing. They are innocent tears, through which outer washing the inner spots are taken away, and the fire of sin is quenched. Blessed are those who weep thus, for Christ says of them they shall laugh. In these tears the soul recognizes God, its true Spouse. This is the solace your loving Spouse gives to you, sighs mingled with tears. But, dearworthy Lord, since these sighs and these tears are so sweet that come from you and liking of great joy, what joy, Lord, and comfort shall your lovers and your chosen have of you when they shall know you and see you as you are! But how of a thing that is so hidden and so unknown can we speak to others that they may understand, since none can understand it unless they have felt it, as those to whom God has sent to a joy and liking of him as to taste here what kind he is and shall be in sweetness to his lovers without end? For all that men read and may hear in books that ought to be read, is unsavoury, unless the heart understands it.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Anyway, back to billcu1.
If God is calling to Contemplative Prayer, he will bless you with the gift.
Many books like Fr Dubay’s “The Fire Within,” are about Contemplative Prayer, but will leave you high and dry as they don’t teach you how to do interior prayer, or as it’s called today, “Contemplative Prayer,” "Centering Prayer, or “Quiet Prayer.” Don’t get hung up on terms. They mean many things to different people even the most religious, as you’ve seen in this thread itself. Your priest can help you with this.
Books that do teach this are, “Into the Silent Land,” by Fr Martin Laird.
“Open Mind Open Heart,” by Fr Thomas Keating
Otherwise, you can just follow this simple method.
In all, be open to God. He is the one you’re seeking a deeper relationship with.
PM me if you need further assistance.
God Bless
Jim
If God is calling to Contemplative Prayer, he will bless you with the gift.
Many books like Fr Dubay’s “The Fire Within,” are about Contemplative Prayer, but will leave you high and dry as they don’t teach you how to do interior prayer, or as it’s called today, “Contemplative Prayer,” "Centering Prayer, or “Quiet Prayer.” Don’t get hung up on terms. They mean many things to different people even the most religious, as you’ve seen in this thread itself. Your priest can help you with this.
Books that do teach this are, “Into the Silent Land,” by Fr Martin Laird.
“Open Mind Open Heart,” by Fr Thomas Keating
Otherwise, you can just follow this simple method.
- Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within. The sacred prayer word can just be “Lord Jesus,” or “Maranatha.” Whatever has meaning for you, but what is prayerful. In all, keep it short.
- Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly, and silently introduce the sacred word as the symbol of your consent to God’s presence and action within.
- When you become aware of thoughts, return ever-so-gently to the sacred word. Don’t become anxious that your thoughts are constantly pulling you away from prayer. Interior silence is difficult for us who live in a day and age of constant noise and stimulation.
- At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes. Generally, I end with the Lord’s Prayer, said slowly with reverence.
In all, be open to God. He is the one you’re seeking a deeper relationship with.
PM me if you need further assistance.
God Bless
Jim
B
Bookcat
Guest
Centering Prayer is NOT permitted in the forum (such as what Fr. Keating’s book promotes). See the rules of the forum. Any questions can be directed to the Staff Apologists at Catholic Answers.
B
Bookcat
Guest
This is a good source - he gets into many things that one will find helpful.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Regarding interior prayer: frjacquesphilippe.com/interview-fr-jacques-philippe He is very gifted writer and a master in this area.
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
Father Philippe: The fundamental difference is that it is a question of living and deepening the relationship of one person to another with God, and it is not solely to acquire the power to practice an interior or psychic state.
Yes, so we always need to ask ourselves what we are seeking. “treasures of light and the power of peace” or a relationship with God. I am reminded of the verse, “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.”
Yes, so we always need to ask ourselves what we are seeking. “treasures of light and the power of peace” or a relationship with God. I am reminded of the verse, “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.”
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
We are not allowed to discuss Centering Prayer in this forum, which I have not done.
Recommending a book on Contemplation which also includes Centering Prayer, is not prohibited, unless this forum now prohibits Fr Keating’s works.
Also, the method of prayer I presented, goes back centuries and was never called Centering Prayer until relatively recently.
Call it whatever you want, but I ask you or anyone else to show where the method of prayer presented in post 34, is flawed or dangerous ?
Jim
B
Bookcat
Guest
What your post there did is yes bring up and promote CP.
I am not going to discuss this topic - it is not permitted.
(I will only note that the use short repeated prayers is itself very ancient and good -but such not CP. But again not going to get into CP
As I noted before:
Turn towards the Lord (conversi ad dominum)
Indeed --often during the day --pray little “short prayers” of love etc such is an ancient practice --during our work, our daily life - help keep our heart turned towards the Lord.
Such can be used during periods of prayer in silence as well.
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