Contemplative prayer

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Bookcat said:
What your post there did is yes bring up and promote CP.

I am not going to discuss this topic - it is not permitted.
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It always saddens me that these discussions always seem to come to this, but I guess there is a history here which transpired well before I became active here. Too bad.
 
christofirst said:
It always saddens me that these discussions always seem to come to this, but I guess there is a history here which transpired well before I became active here. Too bad.
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Me to.

You have to wonder why there is always opposition to prayer, when it’s not the particular method for some ? 🤷

The prayer is Christ centered and it is Christ who calls us to Him, through prayer, not books about prayer.

You can read everything you want, but unless you actually pray, you won’t grow closer to God.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Me to.

You have to wonder why there is always opposition to prayer, when it’s not the particular method for some ? 🤷

The prayer is Christ centered and it is Christ who calls us to Him, through prayer, not books about prayer.

You can read everything you want, but unless you actually pray, you won’t grow closer to God.

Jim
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Agreed. With me it is often too much reading, not enough praying, but I’m trying.
 
Michael_Mayo said:
Father Philippe: The fundamental difference is that it is a question of living and deepening the relationship of one person to another with God, and it is not solely to acquire the power to practice an interior or psychic state.

Yes, so we always need to ask ourselves what we are seeking. “treasures of light and the power of peace” or a relationship with God. I am reminded of the verse, “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.”
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How true.

The focus of our intention is what distinguishes Christian prayer, from other forms of prayer.

The focus of our intention is Jesus Christ.

Not lofty experiences, ecstasies, or ego-serving intellectual insights, just being in His presence is all we desire.

What he gives us, us His gift and we are thankful for it.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
You have to wonder why there is always opposition to prayer, when it’s not the particular method for some ?
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No opposition to prayer.

Now why note that such is not a permitted topic?

Because that particular topic that is *not permitted *on Catholic Answers forum.

Anyone with questions can direct them to the Catholic Answers Staff Apologists.

There is a whole wide field of other topics that can be discussed in the Forums. Wonderfully so.
 
As I noted before:

Turn towards the Lord (conversi ad dominum)

Indeed --often during the day --pray little “short prayers” of love etc such is an ancient practice --during our work, our daily life - help keep our heart turned towards the Lord.

Such can be used during periods of prayer in silence as well.
 
Language falters in these types of discussions. Maybe an imaginative exercise will help.

Let’s say a man enters a crowded basilica for a few moments of private prayer. He has come to know Christ quite well through years of interior companionship. So he no longer desires to meditate. And even spontaneous, heartfelt words are hard to come by sometimes. Rather, the man simply approaches the alter to gaze upon the Lord in the manner of the Cure of Ars … “I look at Him and He looks at me.” The mutual “looking” comprises the prayer … and it is very profound prayer indeed.

Perhaps some might describe this as quiet prayer.

Now, let’s say the man’s prayer of “looking” or “gazing” upon the Lord deepens to the point the man is no longer aware of the hustle and bustle of the tourists going on around him in this crowded basilica. As St. John of the Cross might say, this man is “oblivious” … his will so captivated by the object of his love that external distractions can’t draw away his gaze.

This, some might say, is the prayer of quiet so wonderfully described by St. Teresa throughout her writings.

Now, let’s say this man’s “looking” or “gazing” upon the Lord deepens further still. Yes, his will remains captive as before … but now his intellect is stilled too. So while the man continues to be unaware of the hustle and bustle about him exteriorly … he is now interiorly “oblivious” too. This man has been quieted so that even the flow of thoughts in his mind no longer distract him. All in his mind is quiet … still …. peaceful … delightful. There is only one word that can describe it: silence. In every imaginable sense of the word.

This, some might say, is the prayer of union described by St. Teresa, most especially in mansion 5 of Interior Castle.
The moral of this little imaginative exercise is this: while there are similarities with these various ways of prayer described here … they are not one and the same. The first prayer example, while sublime and grace filled in its own right, is a manner of prayer we can come to practice through our own effort. It goes by various names depending on the spiritual writer: recollection, prayer of simplicity, acquired contemplation to name just a few.

The last two types of prayer, however, are examples of infused contemplation … which is always a gift and not something we can produce on our own.

Lastly and most importantly … there is a “flow” to these ways of prayer where one builds upon that which proceeded it. Hopefully this little illustration gives some glimpse into that.

Dave 🙂
 
DBT said:
Language falters in these types of discussions. Maybe an imaginative exercise will help.

Let’s say a man enters a crowded basilica for a few moments of private prayer. He has come to know Christ quite well through years of interior companionship. So he no longer desires to meditate. And even spontaneous, heartfelt words are hard to come by sometimes. Rather, the man simply approaches the alter to gaze upon the Lord in the manner of the Cure of Ars … “I look at Him and He looks at me.” The mutual “looking” comprises the prayer … and it is very profound prayer indeed.

Perhaps some might describe this as quiet prayer.

Now, let’s say the man’s prayer of “looking” or “gazing” upon the Lord deepens to the point the man is no longer aware of the hustle and bustle of the tourists going on around him in this crowded basilica. As St. John of the Cross might say, this man is “oblivious” … his will so captivated by the object of his love that external distractions can’t draw away his gaze.

This, some might say, is the prayer of quiet so wonderfully described by St. Teresa throughout her writings.

Now, let’s say this man’s “looking” or “gazing” upon the Lord deepens further still. Yes, his will remains captive as before … but now his intellect is stilled too. So while the man continues to be unaware of the hustle and bustle about him exteriorly … he is now interiorly “oblivious” too. This man has been quieted so that even the flow of thoughts in his mind no longer distract him. All in his mind is quiet … still …. peaceful … delightful. There is only one word that can describe it: silence. In every imaginable sense of the word.

This, some might say, is the prayer of union described by St. Teresa, most especially in mansion 5 of Interior Castle.
The moral of this little imaginative exercise is this: while there are similarities with these various ways of prayer described here … they are not one and the same. The first prayer example, while sublime and grace filled in its own right, is a manner of prayer we can come to practice through our own effort. It goes by various names depending on the spiritual writer: recollection, prayer of simplicity, acquired contemplation to name just a few.

The last two types of prayer, however, are examples of infused contemplation … which is always a gift and not something we can produce on our own.

Lastly and most importantly … there is a “flow” to these ways of prayer where one builds upon that which proceeded it. Hopefully this little illustration gives some glimpse into that.

Dave 🙂
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The cross is or was made to have happen outside of time. It is a non-temporal event that never goes away. At each Mass we partake of we are taken before the cross and outside of time. Does one have to be in a state of grace for this type of prayer ?
 
billcu1 said:
Does one have to be in a state of grace for this type of prayer ?
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No hard and fast rules on God’s gifts.

On the one hand, those given infused graces abhor sin and avoid it at all costs. The object of their trials is the purification of their imperfections … the purpose of the dark night.

On the other hand, spiritual writers like St. Teresa and St. John show that God will sometimes pluck the greatest sinner among us to bestow His infused graces so that His mercy may be made known. Contemplative prayer in this manner then becomes the instrument of profound, interior conversion.

Dave 🙂
 
DBT said:
No hard and fast rules on God’s gifts.

On the one hand, those given infused graces abhor sin and avoid it at all costs. The object of their trials is the purification of their imperfections … the purpose of the dark night.

On the other hand, spiritual writers like St. Teresa and St. John show that God will sometimes pluck the greatest sinner among us to bestow His infused graces so that His mercy may be made known. Contemplative prayer in this manner then becomes the instrument of profound, interior conversion.

Dave 🙂
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The Asst. Pastor at my Parish says he will work with me on the uncreated light and contemplative meditation and he is a Franciscan. He has TOR after his name anyway. What’s that mean?

Bill
 
I am reading about the essence and uncreated light and have been reading about something called Hesychasm. This might be to some degree heretical to us. I guess Palamas if that was his name was excommunicated. I don’t know if he ever recanted or repented or not. There was a suspicion of pantheism though; which seems to hang around Platonic teachings the church fears. And when it comes to heresy there is “form and matter” involved.

🤷

Bill
 
billcu1 said:
The Asst. Pastor at my Parish says he will work with me on the uncreated light and contemplative meditation and he is a Franciscan. He has TOR after his name anyway. What’s that mean?

Bill
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Based on what you say here, I would think he’s a Franciscan third order regular.

Dave 🙂
 
Michael_Mayo said:
I think the reading can help as we settle to pray, but then we need to let it go.
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Yes, you are right. Reading can also serve as a means of connection with another who hopefully, through experience, can offer guidance and encouragement. Connection is also what many of us seek here in these forums, and I dare say, it is also what we are seeking in prayer - or perhaps better put, to be aware of a connectedness which already exists. But just as our attempts at human connection can be frustrated with disagreement and misunderstanding in other aspects of life, so it can be here in these forums.

Happily, for most of us, there is a wider world outside the blessed confines of CAF. Billcu1 is blessed to have an associate pastor able and willing to spend time with him, and I hope much good will come from their time together. God willing, this week I will be attending a talk by Cyprian Consiglio, now Prior of the Camaldolese Hermits at Big Sur, who is in town to speak about his book, *Prayer in the Cave of the Heart; The Universal Call to Contemplation. * I’ve read the book (there I go reading again!) but never as yet encountered the man in person. I’m looking forward to it. 🙂
 
I sometimes wonder why learning and borrowing effective techniques from different cultures or religions is considered “melding” with that culture or religion. If I am on a Catholic sports team and learn a more effective form of muscle stretching from a yoga practitioner, am I “melding” my Catholic sports warmup with Eastern religion? I know a breath exercise that is calming and drops blood pressure around 10 points. If I do that prior to prayer, am I “melding” secular medical science with my prayer? Or if some Eastern religion uses similar breath control to calm down, am I “melding” my pre-prayer relaxation with that Eastern religion?
Am I “melding” my bathing with Muslim religious ritual when I wash my feet? The list goes on an on, and the longer it gets the more absurd the questions become.
 
Deus_tecum said:
I sometimes wonder why learning and borrowing effective techniques from different cultures or religions is considered “melding” with that culture or religion. If I am on a Catholic sports team and learn a more effective form of muscle stretching from a yoga practitioner, am I “melding” my Catholic sports warmup with Eastern religion? I know a breath exercise that is calming and drops blood pressure around 10 points. If I do that prior to prayer, am I “melding” secular medical science with my prayer? Or if some Eastern religion uses similar breath control to calm down, am I “melding” my pre-prayer relaxation with that Eastern religion?
Am I “melding” my bathing with Muslim religious ritual when I wash my feet? The list goes on an on, and the longer it gets the more absurd the questions become.
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In the most loosest way to look at it. “Yoga” simply means to “yoke to the divine”. Prayer is yoga, Contemplative prayer is yoga. It’s not eastern technique which sometimes is from a different point of view and can confuse some people. Stretching techniques aren’t going to do much because you have to have a blessing by a guru to do Asanas of eastern yogas. So you’re not going to get anywhere spiritually. Now as far as the design of our western bodies and the easterner’s bodies. Well there is a difference and you don’t want to damage your body. But I think Hatha yoga stretching techniques aren’t going to hurt you.

God bless +
 
14

The Kinds of Divine Union .

The Different Kinds of Union with God We must remember here that John has distinguished three kinds of union with God. By means of the first God dwells substantially in all created things and sustains their existence. By the second, we are to understand the indwelling of God in the soul through grace; by the third, the transforming union through perfect love that divinizes the soul.

Stein, Edith (2011-03-17). The Science of the Cross (The Collected Works of Edith Stein Vol. 6) (Kindle Locations 2919-2922). ICS Publications. Kindle Edition.
 
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