Contemplativeprayer.net

[blessedstar]

I know it was concerning that Father Pennington and Father Keating were involved with dialog between leaders of Eastern Religions.

However, this was asked of them, by the Vatican’s Congregation of Interreligious Dialog.

Here’s a statement from Pope John Paul II;

The purpose of dialog is to learn about each other, and take was is good as a common bond.

Jim

It is good to understand each other but both John Paul II and Pope Benedict have warned against this practise of CP. The Late Pontiffs lauding of meeting with other religions to increase peace and understanding is a totally different thing to taking on board practises full of error and danger from other religions.

 

[blessedstar]

I am confused.You said these are sites point out danger of CP.
I checked one of them, catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9802ltrs.asp, below is what it said, I didn’t finish the whole article.

After reading Fr. John Dreher’s critique of centering prayer “The Danger of Centering Prayer,” November 1997], I had to dig up my retreat notes and books to see if he could possibly have been discussing the same contemplative prayer preparation method I have experienced. After scouring the books of Fr. Thomas Keating, I was unable to locate any of the “bogeyman” dangers identified by Fr. Dreher. Nothing is easier than to build a straw man and then knock it down. I was relieved to discover that Fr. Dreher was obviously referring to some imaginary construct of his own making rather than the prayer method taught by Fr. Keating.

I have spent up to two weeks, eight hours a day, in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, engaged in contemplative prayer, utilizing, in part, the centering prayer method. The retreat master was an expert in spiritual warfare, psychology, and contemplative prayer. The centering prayer method assisted me in silencing what St. Teresa of Avila refers to as the “jabbering jester” inside the mind. Thomas Merton uses the term “birds of appetite” to refer to the tendency of the mind to cling to meaningless ideas and impressions rather than remaining open to the possibilities of God. In any case, anyone serious about prayer should have a spiritual director to address the anecdotal problems described by Fr. Dreher, which can occur with any kind of prayer.

Contrary to Fr. Dreher’s erroneous claim, centering prayer is not designed to “bring the practitioner into the center of his own being.” Fr. Keating clearly states that the centering prayer method is not an end, but only “a way to reduce the ordinary obstacles to contemplative prayer, by clearing the mind.” The “mantra” of centering prayer must be a sacred or holy word which allows one to move back to God when thoughts drift off to extraneous matters. **In fact, centering prayer is a very disciplined way of preparing for contemplation and far from the mindlessness described by Fr. Dreher. **

This is from Catholic.com/thisrock. The very site we are on.

Please understand I am not for CP, nor against it. My knowledge about any topics we are discussing here is limited. I am trying to learn. I am not trying to argue with you, not at all.

Looking at this document published in 1998 and noticing that the Vatican Letter of Cardinal Ratzinger is 1989 it can be considered that this site known for it’s fidelity supports the latter comments of Cardinal Ratzinger.

 

[Augustine]

The purpose of dialog is to learn about each other, and take was is good as a common bond.

Never at the expense of Christianism, much less to the point of endorsing sin, such as Tarot reading.:tsktsk:

 

[InLight247]

… this thread is leaving my heart sad. In Carmel here we are not encouraged to practise CP and no longer use the books for formation that used to be sent to us from the USA which has heavy content of CP and reference to Thomas Merton and Pennington

No need to be sad. The purpose of open forum is for members to discuss or debate on issues and learn from different perspectives.
We have observed multiple attitudes from different people and we know that from various walks of life, each of us is unique.

Yet there is one common ground - we all love our Lord and we all are serious about our faith.

We may argue, we may disagree, we may have our own agenda and we may become defensive or offensive. But we also may say “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespassed against us.”

For CP, I think what Dave said earlier about using sacred words prior to or after one being brought to contemplation hits the key point.

Another major issue is if CP contains TM techniques or not.
I didn’t read the TM link Augustine provided, I don’t want to know their techniques.
According to what blessedstar said above, it sounds that Carmels official teaching stuff used to include CP???

 

[DBT]

According to what blessedstar said above, it sounds that Carmels official teaching stuff used to include CP???

No The materials used in formation are the writings of the Carmelite saints and blesseds themselves: St. Teresa, St. John, St. Therese, St. Benedicta of the Cross, Bl. Elizabeth of the Trinity etc.

There might be variations by community and province with regard to non-cannonized writers (i.e. Fr. Dubay), but this is the core grouping . . . at least in OCDS, I’m not sure about O’Carm or the specific texts blessedstar referenced in her community.

As I mentioned earlier, I have never heard CP discussed in my community, by my provincial leaders or in any of the national Carmelite literature - either as a recommended practice or a focal point in teaching and formation. My St. Louis community hosted the 2005 national congress with over 400 OCDS attending - along with the friars and leaders of our order. I can assure you, CP was nowhere to be found

And, IMHO, there’s no reason for it to: centering prayer is not Carmelite prayer. Some might find the two compatible in some ways - and even practice it - but they are not one and the same.

And for those who have interest in what Carmelite leadership has to say about the dangers - to community and the individual - of “detours” into non-Carmelite spirituality, please refer back to the link Joysong provided much earlier called “Profile of an OCDS.” It seems to me, Fr. Deeney couldn’t be more clear . . .

Dave.

Sorry, blessedstar . . . I didn’t mean to jump in on a question directed to you!!

 

[InLight247]

… please refer back to the link Joysong provided much earlier called “Profile of an OCDS.”

Read it in post #49

What is Ameditate ?
Why do you call St. Teresa “Holy Mother”? I thought our Blessed Mother is our Holy Mother. Why St. John of the Cross “Holy Father”, I thought out Pope is our Holy Father?

 

[Joysong]

AThe only apostolate of the Secular is prayer.@ The word that makes that statement false is Aonly**@**.

Hi InLight,

Throughout the link, there are some typos that cause confusion. I have seen this occur when a person copies a document from a scanner and then the computer tries to read the text. A lot of these errors transpose because the computer cannot read the actual character and inserts its own idea. My guess is that this is what happened, for throughout, we find the “A” as in the above sentence, and a lot of @ or = in place of an apostrophe. You need to read it without the “A” as “meditate.”

This website posted an original copy of this document a few years ago without error. There must have been a software upgrade that caused these typos to appear.

The affectionate term “Holy Mother” refers to St. Teresa because she is the foundress of the Order, along with St. John of the Cross. The Order is under the patronage of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, so there is no intent to slight Mary; in fact I don’t know of a single member who does not have deep devotion to her. It is simply an expression of honor to our two saintly founders.

 

[InLight247]

Thanks so much, Joysong!
Thanks to you too, Dave, for pointing to the site.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Dave,
I went back to my copy of Father Dubay’s “The Fire Within,” last night. I was brought to the section where he talks about the 4th Masion, and he uses the piece from Teresa, that you posted earlier.

The most we should do is occasionally, and quite simply, to utter
a single word, like a person giving a little puff to a candle, when he sees it has
almost gone out, so as to make it burn again; though, if it were fully alight.
I suppose the only result of blowing it would be to put it out. I think the puff should
be a gentle one because, if we begin to tax our brains by making up long speeches, the will may become active again.

The translation Dubay used is slightly different but teaching is the same.

The very first sentence Dubay gives us to explain the above Teresian teaching is, “Centering Prayer is not new.” Page 92 of The Fire Within.

Father Dubay see’s Centering Prayer in what Teresa wrote, and so did I the first time I read it.

If feels good not to be alone in this interpretation, especiallly with the company of Father Dubay.

Jim

 

[Joysong]

JimR:

The very first sentence Dubay gives us to explain the above Teresian teaching is, “Centering Prayer is not new.” Page 92 of The Fire Within.

I agree with Father’s teaching in the context that Dave mentioned previously, that this centering is to be practiced *while in the state of contemplation. *Our Lord has already brought the person into this prayer, which is primarily bestowed upon the will. The other faculties have little part in it, and may become active when they find themselves alone. In this case, the activity of the intellect may pull the will out from its rejoicing in God by examining what is happening to it, or by composing speeches of thanksgiving, etc.

[sign]Lightbulb moment![/sign] It just occurred to me what Dave was explaining. CP is used when there is no gift of contemplation being bestowed — the person attempts to suspend the intellect on his own outside of contemplation] using a practice designed to eliminate thoughts so the will may keep its focus prayerfully on God.

To this, Teresa responds that it is impossible to stop thinking, and to pay no attention to these thoughts as though to a madman. When God wills to suspend the faculties in supernatural prayer, He does so without man’s effort. I’ll have to look for these teachings, for I’m going on memory now. I remember her saying that the whole value of prayer lies in the fact that the will is attentive, even though the other faculties are wandering.

For this reason, we do not go over and repeat the prayers of the rosary when the mind wanders, for the will is truly praying. Scrupulous people think that prayer is lost if they have these distractions, but if they are not deliberate while trying to pray, and are otherwise annoying to us, our prayers are heard.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

[sign]Lightbulb moment![/sign] It just occurred to me what Dave was explaining. CP is used when there is no gift of contemplation being bestowed — the person attempts to suspend the intellect on his own outside of contemplation] using a practice designed to eliminate thoughts so the will may keep its focus prayerfully on God.

Centering prayer like all prayer makes us available for contemplation. Contemplation is what God does, not our activity.

To this, Teresa responds that it is impossible to stop thinking, and to pay no attention to these thoughts as though to a madman. When God wills to suspend the faculties in supernatural prayer, He does so without man’s effort. I’ll have to look for these teachings, for I’m going on memory now. I remember her saying that the whole value of prayer lies in the fact that the will is attentive, even though the other faculties are wandering.

Excatly what Father Keating teaches. It’s immpossible to stop thinking. I mentioned earlier in this thread. Centering prayer doesn’t attempt to stop thinking, but only to direct the will towards God. The prayer word merely points our will back towards God, when we become aware that our thoughts have wandered off. It doesn’s suspend thought or sense.

For this reason, we do not go over and repeat the prayers of the rosary when the mind wanders, for the will is truly praying. Scrupulous people think that prayer is lost if they have these distractions, but if they are not deliberate while trying to pray, and are otherwise annoying to us, our prayers are heard.

No different than Centering Prayer. You don’t work anxiously, trying to stay focused on the prayer word. All is done gently and with love. We are making ourselves available for contemplation, not attempting to create contemplation. God draws us into contemplation, it is his action that brings us there.

When I pray the rosary, when I find my thoughts have taken me off to some distant place, I don’t repeat the decade, but merely return to where I’m at. Heck, it’d take me all day to say one Rosary if I thought I had to do it without any distractions.
Centering Prayer, is no different.

In His Love
Jim

 

[Joysong]

Dear Jim,

Well it seems we are reaching a point of understanding. I get it now. Just like in the rosary, we return to the prayer, I hear you saying, we return to God’s presence when the mind is distracted. I think the stumbling block for many is using the sacred word, as it suggests too much of a TM type of practice. I makes more sense, IMO, just to wordlessly return our attentiveness back to God and continue to be open to Him.

 

[DBT]

Dave,
I went back to my copy of Father Dubay’s “The Fire Within,” last night. I was brought to the section where he talks about the 4th Masion, and he uses the piece from Teresa, that you posted earlier.

The translation Dubay used is slightly different but teaching is the same.

The very first sentence Dubay gives us to explain the above Teresian teaching is, “Centering Prayer is not new.” Page 92 of The Fire Within.

Father Dubay see’s Centering Prayer in what Teresa wrote, and so did I the first time I read it.

If feels good not to be alone in this interpretation, especiallly with the company of Father Dubay.
Jim

Hi Jim!

No you are not alone!

However, the point I was trying to make is about when this type of prayer naturally occurs in the soul. It would seem the use of the “sacred word” would almost be an intuitive, instictive response to the Holy Spirit while in the midst of the prayer of quiet - where union with God is not complete and the intellect sometimes wanders like a herd of “wild horses.” Since we are becoming more passive at this time, we need to learn to turn away from these thoughts . . . or at least ignore them. My point is that the only place I’ve seen St. Teresa mention anything like CP’s concept of the sacred word is in the context of the prayer of quiet.

However, her teaching is entirely different for souls before they’ve been brought to the prayer of quiet . . . and this is crucial, I think, to understanding what she has to say. The quotes I gave in my post a while back about not trying to stop or slow down the mind before the gift of contemplation is given come from the 4th dwelling in Interior Castle. She goes on for 2+ pages explaining why this is wrong. And to be honest, this is my entire beef with CP — that it is taught and practiced as a prayer approach prior to the gift of infused contemplation being given by God. This is where I see a huge divergence between Fr. Keating and St. Teresa.

So in this, I agree with the interpretation Joysong just gave. Maybe we all can go back to the quotes in my original post on the subject . . . hopefully we can all find a bit more common ground.

Jim, I hope and trust we are all coming to a closer understanding of each other

In Carmel,
Dave

 

[DBT]

Jim, I made my last post before seeing what you and Joysong had to say.

It seems we are coming to some common ground. Am I correct to assume we are saying the same thing . . . but in different ways?

Dave

 

[Joysong]

Hi Dave,

You probably have Kiernan’s books on St. Teresa. I looked up “recollection” in the back and went to the pertinent sections listed there. Notably on pg. 32 of the Introduction to W/P, Kiernan wrote:

Her method is one of presence, of being fully present to God in our prayer, for He is fully present to us at all times. “What I’m trying to point out is that we should see and be present to the One with whom we speak without turning our back on Him.” Centering the attention within, being fully present, looking at, gazing upon; these are the expressins that fit her method. “I’m not asking you now that you think about Him or that you draw out a lot of concepts or make long and subtle reflections with your intellect. I’m not asking you to do anything more than look at Him.” It is sufficient that one make the effort, and for that reason Teresa calls this prayer of recollection a method. [an acquired method that one can learn by practicing it]

Understandably, the degrees of this recollection may vary, and Teresa predicts that in the beginning it may be a little difficult but soon, “the gain will be clearly seen.”

Teresa taught this at length in W/P Chapter 29, and in section 29:9, she wrote, “I know if you try, that within a year or perhaps half a year, you will acquire it, by the favor of God.”

It seems that maybe you can identify with Brother Lawrence’s teachings on “acquired” recollection … the habit – not the infused gift that is the very early stages of the prayer of quiet. If you know of a particular chapter to refer us to, for I gave my book away , maybe it would be helpful here.

For the beginner, she simply advises recollection coupled with one’s vocal prayer … that is all they know as a beginner. I believe as one advances in prayer, the recollection will be wordless, spontaneous throughout one’s day, and may be protracted without using any vocal prayer other than a few ejaculations to awaken love more deeply, the simplicity of the “attentive gaze.”

Are we on the same page???

The only difference I see between her method and Keating’s is that she advises using vocal prayer as one begins recollection, so most of the faculties will be occupied. Keating rather anticipates that anyone can just learn to center without attending to vocal prayer. Maybe, maybe not … but then again, he was writing for monks, those much advanced in prayer, as was the author of the Cloud.

Carole

 

[Joysong]

Joysong:

It seems that maybe you can identify with Brother Lawrence’s teachings on “acquired” recollection …

Now if we truly want to blow everyone’s mind completely away with all of this intense and difficult terminology, we might say that “acquired” recollection may also be referred to as “acquired” contemplation! [One just doesn’t use any words]
http://bestsmileys.com/lol/5.gif

 

[InLight247]

Dear Jim,

Well it seems we are reaching a point of understanding. I get it now. Just like in the rosary, we return to the prayer, I hear you saying, we return to God’s presence when the mind is distracted. I think the stumbling block for many is using the sacred word, as it suggests too much of a TM type of practice. I makes more sense, IMO, just to wordlessly return our attentiveness back to God and continue to be open to Him.

Yes!

 

[DBT]

It seems that maybe you can identify with Brother Lawrence’s teachings on “acquired” recollection … the habit – not the infused gift that is the very early stages of the prayer of quiet.

Yes, it seems to me that Brother Lawrence is the key to finding common ground here . . . in fact, I was going to bring him up myself If this is how one “centers” then I’m in absolute agreement with it.

Brother Lawrence’s way was essentially “active” – the continual turning our minds to the Lord in silent, wordless, interior adoration throughout all our daily activities. This is a way of “active” recollection ALL should strive for. And I can see how some might see the way of Brother Lawrence practiced throughout the day as a natural feeder to CP practiced in the context of mental prayer. Afterall, he did say the less distracted from God we are throughout the day, the less distracted we’ll likely be during our mental prayer.

But is this way of Br. Lawrence really what Fr. Keating teaches? I just don’t know . . . maybe, Jim, you have an opinion on that.

Brother Lawrence saw no difference between his daily activity and mental prayer . . . it was all one and the same: continual interior adoration whether one is active (i.e. doing things) or passive (in contemplative prayer). He is, to me, the epitome of what St. Teresa had in mind of the soul who has been brought to the 7th dwelling — a total transformation in Christ as St. Paul says, “Not I, but Christ who lives in me.”

However, the whole concept of “Sit down for 20 minutes, close one’s eyes, gently repeating the sacred word hoping for interior stillness” just seems to imply a seperation of prayer from activity un-natural to Brother Lawrence’s way of thinking. Perhaps others might think differently.

Interestingly, I’ve never seen Fr. Keating cite Brother Lawrence as an inspiration - who would seem to me to be his closest link within Carmel. And, for that matter, Fr. Keating also seems to de-emphasize St. Teresa (see Joysongs comments about Way of Perfection Chapter 29) in favor of St. John. Hmmm . . .

Jim and Joysong, I think this topic could become very fruitful. I look forward to your thoughts.

For the beginner, she simply advises recollection coupled with one’s vocal prayer … that is all they know as a beginner. I believe as one advances in prayer, the recollection will be wordless, spontaneous throughout one’s day, and may be protracted without using any vocal prayer other than a few ejaculations to awaken love more deeply, the simplicity of the "attentive gaze."

Are we on the same page???

Completely! See above.

The only difference I see between her method and Keating’s is that she advises using vocal prayer as one begins recollection, so most of the faculties will be occupied. Keating rather anticipates that anyone can just learn to center without attending to vocal prayer. Maybe, maybe not … but then again, he was writing for monks, those much advanced in prayer, as was the author of the Cloud.

Agreed as well.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Dave,

However, the point I was trying to make is about when this type of prayer naturally occurs in the soul. It would seem the use of the “sacred word” would almost be an intuitive, instictive response to the Holy Spirit while in the midst of the prayer of quiet - where union with God is not complete and the intellect sometimes wanders like a herd of “wild horses.”

The sacred word is only used when we become aware that our thoughts have wandered off. Even if we become aware of God’s presence, at that point, we have already received everything from Him, and if we allow ourselves to dwell on this we will start to bring in our own ideas and agendas. St. John of the Cross teaches not to dwell on even the spiritual things, for this very reason. It’s why John teaches so much about dettachment.

Since we are becoming more passive at this time, we need to learn to turn away from these thoughts . . . or at least ignore them. My point is that the only place I’ve seen St. Teresa mention anything like CP’s concept of the sacred word is in the context of the prayer of quiet.

Turning away from thoughs, the sacred prayer word is what helps us to do this. It is used merely like the needle of a compass, where our direction is God.

However, her teaching is entirely different for souls before they’ve been brought to the prayer of quiet . . . and this is crucial, I think, to understanding what she has to say. The quotes I gave in my post a while back about not trying to stop or slow down the mind before the gift of contemplation is given come from the 4th dwelling in Interior Castle. She goes on for 2+ pages explaining why this is wrong. And to be honest, this is my entire beef with CP — that it is taught and practiced as a prayer approach prior to the gift of infused contemplation being given by God. This is where I see a huge divergence between Fr. Keating and St. Teresa.

I’m not so sure. Novices entering into the convent in Teresa’s day, couldn’t read or write. In fact, women were not allowed to do mental prayer. Also, because of the times she was living in, besides herself and John of the Cross, who else was there to guide beginers?

That being said, I’m going to have to study and pray on this aspect a little more.

So in this, I agree with the interpretation Joysong just gave. Maybe we all can go back to the quotes in my original post on the subject . . . hopefully we can all find a bit more common ground. Jim, I hope and trust we are all coming to a closer understanding of each other

I agree, I think we’re saying much the same thing. I hope that what I’m sharing on Centering Prayer, as I know it, changes the preception of it.

I can understand how easy it is to be cautious of CP, especially in light of the fact that the Trappist and Benedictines, were so involved with Eastern Religions. However, from my perception, what the saw in the Eastern Religions only made them aware that we already had a deep spirituality in our own faith, that could be brought to lay people, which was sadly missing for so many years.

In His Name
Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yes, it seems to me that Brother Lawrence is the key to finding common ground here . . . in fact, I was going to bring him up myself If this is how one “centers” then I’m in absolute agreement with it.

Brother Lawrence’s way was essentially “active” – the continual turning our minds to the Lord in silent, wordless, interior adoration throughout all our daily activities. This is a way of “active” recollection ALL should strive for. And I can see how some might see the way of Brother Lawrence practiced throughout the day as a natural feeder to CP practiced in the context of mental prayer. Afterall, he did say the less distracted from God we are throughout the day, the less distracted we’ll likely be during our mental prayer.

But is this way of Br. Lawrence really what Fr. Keating teaches? I just don’t know . . . maybe, Jim, you have an opinion on that.

I have not read Br Lawrence, but what you are saying about, is what Fr Keating teaches.

Brother Lawrence saw no difference between his daily activity and mental prayer . . . it was all one and the same: continual interior adoration whether one is active (i.e. doing things) or passive (in contemplative prayer). He is, to me, the epitome of what St. Teresa had in mind of the soul who has been brought to the 7th dwelling — a total transformation in Christ as St. Paul says, “Not I, but Christ who lives in me.”

This is the result of infused contemplation. Even the dirt in the earth contains the pulse of God, for those who reach it.

However, the whole concept of “Sit down for 20 minutes, close one’s eyes, gently repeating the sacred word hoping for interior stillness” just seems to imply a seperation of prayer from activity un-natural to Brother Lawrence’s way of thinking. Perhaps others might think differently.

The repitition of the sacred prayer word does nothing other than quiet our physical and mental state in order to be more open to prayer. The prayer word will gently end as Christ draws us to himself. The only importance the prayer word has from that moment is when we become aware that we’ve begun to think of thoughts outside of prayer.
BTW, 20 minutes is really more of a guideline. Father Keating even says that some people are drawn into quiet with in the first couple minutes. If they only end up praying for 15 minutes, they’ve gotten more than some one who may have spent 45 minutes and only had 2 minutes of quiet. My self, between 15 and 20 minutes seems to be about how long the Lord keeps me.

Jim and Joysong, I think this topic could become very fruitful. I look forward to your thoughts.

I agree, praise God!

Jim