Contemplatives, Mystics and Prayer life

[robertaf]

This topic came up in another thread. I think it is a good subject for discussion.
Hope you all think it is, too.

Have any of you been involved in contemplative prayer, had mystical experiences or a special interest in lives of Catholic Mystics?

 

[robertaf]

Greetings Tru_Dvotion

In the other thread, you said,
"Contemplative lifestyle is monastic. It has one and only one purpose. It is completely removed from the world; it does not communicate nor has intercourse with the world. Sainthood is not restricted to monasticism but contemplative sainthood is. As you said yourself, the religious books are written about those. Now why would it be so? For the simple reason that an “outside contemplative” merely dabbles in contemplation. One who just dabbles runs a far greater risk of being deceived by the Devil than those who live a cloistered and fully contemplative lifestyle. "

Yes, I believe this is why I was asked to journalize and my experiences were put under testing and scrutiny with my Bishop. It took over 10 years for word to get back to me, through my Spiritual Director, the results of “scrutiny”. Even then, it sounds vague. However, my SD said very similar things were declared over Religious Mystics. It is pretty interesting and amazing to hear how some of these things are tested. Do you know there is ways known only to special people that visions and mystical things are tested against? I didn’t.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Do you know there is ways known only to special people that visions and mystical things are tested against? I didn’t.

Yes I do. That is why obedience is so imperative. I do not wish to critique your SD, after all, I know nothing about him/her, but I would never trust one who is not orthodox in the strictest sense. I would never trust an SD who is in the renewal.

Contemplation can never be the focus, holiness is. One can easily become a contemplative junkie; sorry for the bluntness, but spiritual consolations or receiving heavenly messages should never be one’s focus. That is why, when one of the Medjugorje “visionaries” was thinking of joining a religious order and was told if she entered a convent and the bishop asked her to refrain from publicizing the “messages" she would have to obey the bishop and she opted to stay out of the convent, feeling she needed to keep releasing the messages, I knew this is a human hoax. Because one sure sign of a prophet that he will be only too happy to relinquish being God’s messenger, because that is a great burden. The prophet would also have to be obedient to those over him in authority. Real authority, not of one’s own choosing as most SDs are on the outside.

 

[robertaf]

I agree with most of what you say.

My SD, at that time was a Benedictine Priest and I was asked not to talk about my experiences or even read about Church Mystics. I was under absolute obedience.

After a time, I was instructed to read some books and to journalize about what I read.

Since the experiences have ended, seemingly, and am no longer under that sort of scrutiny, I am no longer restricted about speaking or reading. Nothing in my prayer life was deemed to be outside of Catholic Doctrine or teaching.

This sort of prayer, the deepening and the different levels is nothing I can will myself to do. I have tried but it doesn’t work. Some of my experiences were very very intense and difficult for me to endure.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

robertaf:

This topic came up in another thread. I think it is a good subject for discussion.
Hope you all think it is, too.

Have any of you been involved in contemplative prayer, had mystical experiences or a special interest in lives of Catholic Mystics?

Dear robertaf,

I have been involved in contemplative prayer. I have also had what I later came to consider “mystical experiences” but have not discussed them at length with any authorities so I’m hesitant to disclose them here, at least without further provocation! For this discussion, suffice it to say that the “experiences” did not result from the contemplative prayer, and in fact some predated the time I even heard of Spiritual Direction or contemplative prayer. If at all, the experiences have waned since I became more grounded.

Vatican II, as I understand (but don’t have an exact reference) stressed that “holiness is for everyone.” Contemplative prayer may have been known mostly to monastics in the past, but there is nothing that says it should be limited to monastics. In fact, the contrary is true. The Abbot General of the Order of Strict Cistercian Observance spoke at a 1997 synod about bringing contemplative prayer to the laity, and the CCC has a great deal to say about it. In the chapter “The Life of Prayer,” the CCC (2697-2724) says more about contemplative prayer than the other two (vocal and meditative) combined. It says vocal prayer is good, but calls it “an initial form of contemplative prayer.” About meditative prayer, the CCC states that, "this form of prayerful reflection is of great value, but Christian prayer should go further: to the knowledge of the love of the Lord Jesus, to union with him.

I’ll leave it at that for the first post on the topic. I am very interested in this subject and had an article published in our diocesan newpaper about contemplative prayer and one form of it.

Alan

References: usccb.org/catechism/text/pt4sect1chpt3.htm

vatican.va/news_services/press/sinodo/documents/bollettino_17_speciale-america-1997/02_inglese/b13_02.html
(search for “contemplative prayer” or for the 2nd occurrence of “olivera”

 

[tru_dvotion]

robertaf:

My SD, at that time was a Benedictine Priest

But was he involved in the Charismatic Renewal? I am sorry I keep harping on this, but it would make a great deal of difference. If he was not, you were blessed indeed.

This sort of prayer, the deepening and the different levels is nothing I can will myself to do. I have tried but it doesn’t work.

My dear sister, I know it does not work. We have no control over the spiritual; we only have control over the physical. (to some extent)

What I meant with turning it on and off, was regards to tongues at the prayer meetings. That is not the same as a mystical experience. The Desert Father’s tongues were the result of deep contemplation. We see NOTHING LIKE THAT at the prayer meetings, the charismatic tongue phenomena has nothing to do with contemplation.

Some of my experiences were very very intense and difficult for me to endure.

They can be tough, regardless of the source. Some of my absolute worse experiences were from the Devil when I went overseas to nurse a dying relative, whose entire family was into spiritism and new age. I pose great threat, because at the end I was able to secure the last rites (in this case it was really that) for my relative. If I did not have blessed water and blessed salt to throw around my bed, I would not have been able to sleep for several weeks and I probably would have gone mad under the Satanic attacks. Now I am not saying your mystical experiences were from the Devil, please do not misunderstand me. But just because they were hard to endure, it does not automatically conclude they were from God or that the Devil was not allowed an opportunity to test you. I would be very leery of any mystical experience that was brought on by tongues or by the Baptism of the Spirit. The transference of possession is quite frequent when all sorts of people with all sorts of backgrounds lay hands on one another. This is a very dangerous and careless practice.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

AlanFromWichita:

contemplative prayer and one form of it.

Disclaimer: I worded that a bit awkwardly.

Contemplation is not something we can “turn on and turn off” such as the tongues that tru_devotion mentioned. Contemplation is itself a gift from God. Certain prayer forms are designed to bring our bodies and minds to a quiet point which invites contemplation and consents to the presence of the Spirit, but we cannot actually “do” contemplation; we can only allow it.

Alan

 

[tru_dvotion]

Contemplation is not something we can “turn on and turn off” such as the tongues that tru_devotion mentioned. Contemplation is itself a gift from God. Certain prayer forms are designed to bring our bodies and minds to a quiet point which invites contemplation and consents to the presence of the Spirit, but we cannot actually “do” contemplation; we can only allow it.

Thank you Allan for clarifying it. I did not make this clear in my post. I was trying to clarify far too many elements that have come up in this topic and in the Cursillo topic.

 

[DBT]

robertaf:

Greetings Tru_Dvotion

In the other thread, you said,
"Contemplative lifestyle is monastic. It has one and only one purpose. It is completely removed from the world; it does not communicate nor has intercourse with the world. Sainthood is not restricted to monasticism but contemplative sainthood is. As you said yourself, the religious books are written about those. Now why would it be so? For the simple reason that an “outside contemplative” merely dabbles in contemplation. One who just dabbles runs a far greater risk of being deceived by the Devil than those who live a cloistered and fully contemplative lifestyle. "

Tru_Dvotion, I haven’t followed this to closely so I apologize if I mis-understand you. Are you saying there are no valid lay contemplatives? That contemplatives outside the monastary are mere “dabblers?”

If so, what’s your view on the Secular Orders . . . particularily the Carmelite Secular Order whose mission and charism is to help lay contemplatives live their lives in the tradition of the Carmelite Saints?

 

[robertaf]

Good Morning Church

Although I have been involved in the Charismatic Renewal since the 1960s, I did not intend to give the impression that my experiences through Contemplative prayer or any mystical experiences were in any way involved with the Renewal, as such.
I do believe there is only one Holy Spirit and he is guiding me in both areas and, in fact all areas of my Spiritual life.
However, this is not a thread on the Charismatic Renewal.

My first experience with contemplative prayer was directly connected with the Holy Eucharist. In fact, most of my experiences were. The other thing is that where Charismatic worship deeply involved the Holy Spirit and Jesus, my contemplative prayer was not outward but deeply inward and focused on the Holy Trinity. The Chrarismatic experience was expansive and bright where the contemplative one was deeply silent.

Two completely different prayer lives. My Spiritual Directors were always Religious Priests (I have had three). One only for one occaision as he was much more interested in Social Doctrines than what I was needing. My Primary SD is who I started with in 1982, when I first experienced this, he is wonderful. Unfortunately, we moved and are now only connected by phone. I have another wonderful Priest up here, who has been available to me when I went through some deep experiences in 1992. The Charismatic experience, tongues are not involved nor was it with my SDs.

I had almost no knowledge of contemplative prayer, mystical experiences or Christian Mystics when this began with me. I had an intense love for the Holy Eucharist. I spent much time in Eucharistic devotion. However, I realize now, that I had my very first “experience” the day after my Baptism when I was 18 yrs. old. I just didn’t recognize it then.

I have since learned that many other lay people have experienced similar things to what I have and my SD believes it is good to discuss them. He was very adamant about testing, scrutiny, maitaining a journal and total obedience.

 

[tru_dvotion]

In that case Roberta, we have a lot more in common than not. The only difference is I left the Charismatic Movement and you are still in it. I cannot speak for you and we all have our own journey and no two are alike. What brought me into the Charismatic Movement was the impression: how much they loved the Lord, whom I too loved so ardently! I thought I have found for “kindred spirits” (no pun), but now as I look back… it was such a waste of my precious time. You made a reference on the other thread about me having a bad experience with the renewal. Far from it, the people were lovely and I still have friends who are in it, although by now… they know not to talk to me about any of such stuff. My biggest beef is the false sense of holiness, and false sense personal relationship with the Lord, and the new ageness of it. I wrote a little thesis about slaying in the spirit practice on the apologetics site, if I recall… the thread was about a new convert trying to sort out what practices are Protestant and what are Catholic… it must be on page 2 or 3 by now.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Tru_Dvotion, I haven’t followed this to closely so I apologize if I mis-understand you. Are you saying there are no valid lay contemplatives? That contemplatives outside the monastary are mere “dabblers?”

Not exactly, also, thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt. When I wrote that, my impression of someone was incorrect. I assumed, she was claiming to be a contemplative through her involvement in the Charismatic Renewal. You are correct, and I am aware that contemplatives exist in the secular world, but I hope you will agree with me, that to grow spiritually out here is much more difficult and a lot less successful than inside a monastic order.

 

[DBT]

tru_dvotion:

You are correct, and I am aware that contemplatives exist in the secular world, but I hope you will agree with me, that to grow spiritually out here is much more difficult and a lot less successful than inside a monastic order.

I agree with you that living in the secular world can put a lot of stress and competing pressures on the lay contemplative. But I don’t think I’d agree that contemplation is necessarily more “successful” in the monestary.

Just a brief reading of the Saints (Teresa of Avila, Therese of Liseaux) shows that all sorts of petty rivalries, jealousies, troubles dealing with obedience etc. exist among even those we think are most holy. So those in the cloister are not without their own contemplative stresses. And perhaps these kind of drags on the contemplative spirit weigh even more heavily on those in the monestary due to the nature of their consecrated life than some of the secular influences have on the lay contemplative. Just speculating here.

Contemplation is a gift from God and it will be “successful” wherever and with whoever he wants it to be . . .

 

[tru_dvotion]

I agree with you that living in the secular world can put a lot of stress and competing pressures on the lay contemplative. But I don’t think I’d agree that contemplation is necessarily more “successful” in the monestary.

Just a brief reading of the Saints (Teresa of Avila, Therese of Liseaux) shows that all sorts of petty rivalries, jealousies, troubles dealing with obedience etc. exist among even those we think are most holy. So those in the cloister are not without their own contemplative stresses. And perhaps these kind of drags on the contemplative spirit weigh even more heavily on those in the monestary due to the nature of their consecrated life than some of the secular influences have on the lay contemplative. Just speculating here.

Contemplation is a gift from God and it will be “successful” wherever and with whoever he wants it to be . . .

Ah but all the stress on one’s time!
All the responsibilities!
And ALL THAT NOISE!

 

[Chaffa55]

tru_dvotion:

Ah but all the stress on one’s time!
All the responsibilities!
And ALL THAT NOISE!

These don’t have to be major obstacles. The people drawn to meditative prayer find a way. God’s invitation is too strong to ignore!!

 

[tru_dvotion]

Chaffa55:

These don’t have to be major obstacles. The people drawn to meditative prayer find a way. God’s invitation is too strong to ignore!!

In a perfect and uncomplicated world I would agree with you. But I cannot ignore my neighbor coming over for help with the excuse it is too hard for me to ignore God’s invitation. God could be inviting me to go and help him. No?

 

[Chaffa55]

tru_dvotion:

…But I cannot ignore my neighbor coming over for help with the excuse it is too hard for me to ignore God’s invitation. God could be inviting me to go and help him. No?

Agreed, absolutely. Interruptions are a big problem. My solution is to get up earlier than my “neighbors” (spouse and adult sons). I usually have total solitude at 6 a.m. or earlier.

 

[robertaf]

Greetings
During the times when God guides me to contemplation, I am awakened at near 5 am. I would take my coffee outside on the Patio in the dark and quiet.
I live in the country with wildlife all around me. I would be aware of birds and movement of little animals in the dark. I liked it. Often, I was aware that they were very near to me. I really liked that.

This was not a distraction at all.

I also found solitude in the Adoration Room at Church, or even sitting before the tabernacle.

I am not easily distracted at Mass or whenever I am in Prayer.
I have talked to Contemplatives who could get into contemplative prayer at will. These were Religious folks and possibly have learned disciplines I have no way of knowing about. I do not seem able to get into this sort of prayer at will.

On the other hand, I have been told by my Spiritual Director and other Contemplatives that they have not gone through the type of Mystical experiences that I did or had the type visions. My Spiritual Director said this type happen only rarely and in fact, he said, “maybe once in 300-500 years.” I do not know if that is true or not, I know it has nothing whatsoever to do with me. I never asked for it or did anything special to deserve or earn it. In fact, at first I wanted to reject it.

At first, I thought I was imagining things, losing my mind or something. I wanted to speak to my Pastor but he was on vacation and the only person I could share my first experience with was an 82 yr old Jesuit Priest, visiting out Parish from Holland. He was a retired Professor and quite the scholar. It was he who put me with my first Spiritual Director and he did it very quickly. He was also the one who insisted I write everything down and had the biggest laugh at my finding it almost totally impossible to put into the English language. Describing what I experienced was one of the hardest thing I ever did in my life.

When I read those early journals, it is so strange because I almost re-live it in a timeless realm.
I went through a 2 year period, St John of the Cross calls Dark Night of the Soul, a time when God seemed to disappear from me altogether. That journal does not enter into that timeless realm although I can remember it fairly clearly.

I look forward to hearing of other folks experience along these lines.

 

[Chaffa55]

Dear Roberta,

I invite you to share with us the mystical experiences that you feel comfortable sharing in this setting.

 

[robertaf]

Greetings Church

I need to pray about this. I have never shared details, publically before and I honestly do not feel comfortable about doing it at this time.

I can tell you that I have had profound experience with the Holy Trinity, that included visions.
I have had visions of both Heaven and Hell. I had a vision of the Church in Prayer in Heaven and on earth.

That is about all I want to say, without much prayer right now.

I hope you understand that I feel uncomfortable doing this publically. In fact, in asking for (name removed by moderator)ut from others, I didn’t mean to ask for details but more or less the Prayer Experience.

I am very interested in hearing about levels of silence, the various stages and places we move through. I wonder if everyone goes through these same dark, silent stages. I do not get a lot of opportunity to talk in such a large group.