Contemplatives, Mystics and Prayer life

[Annunciata]

I went through a period of deep contemplation a few years ago which was the beginning of a ‘new conversion’ experience for me. I spent time contemplating the Face of Christ… Like Roberta, I was advised by my SD to keep a journal. Just a few weeks ago I took it out and reread it. I had forgotten how painful it was when I decided to discontinue… I stopped it because of pride… though lately I’ve been praying about starting it again… Annunciata

 

[AlanFromWichita]

robertaf:

I hope you understand that I feel uncomfortable doing this publically. In fact, in asking for (name removed by moderator)ut from others, I didn’t mean to ask for details but more or less the Prayer Experience.

I am very interested in hearing about levels of silence, the various stages and places we move through. I wonder if everyone goes through these same dark, silent stages. I do not get a lot of opportunity to talk in such a large group.

Dear Roberta,

I have had “mystical experiences” as well, the details of whic I haven’t shared on this forum for several reasons, and I have received PMs from others who have also had some. They have been both troubling and peace-bringing, mostly the latter, and have built my faith. They could easily become objects of spiritual lust, and are nearly beyond my ability to describe in words. If you feel comfortable about it, you may PM me regarding these experiences and we can “swap notes.”

Alan

 

[jennstall]

tru_dvotion:

In a perfect and uncomplicated world I would agree with you. But I cannot ignore my neighbor coming over for help with the excuse it is too hard for me to ignore God’s invitation. God could be inviting me to go and help him. No?

There’s a book that talks about this that you mind find interesting. It’s called Poustinia and it’s by Catherine Doherty. It’s about a Russian hermit/contemplative tradition and in her book she describes that the Poustiniak makes himself available at all times to all who knock at his door. If someone asks him to come and clean out a barn, he goes and cleans out a barn. You may find it speaks to your quest for perfect silence or solitude. One can be a contemplative even if the only silence & solitude that one has is interior. Interior solitude, regardless of one’s physical conditions, is the goal.

My understanding of monasteries is that with the exception of some orders like the Carthusians they tend to be busy places where much more time is spent in community than in solitude. I’m pretty certain I have more solitude in my life than most monks get access to and it is a large part of why I hesitate to commit to the idea of joining a monastery myself. I could never make it as a Carthusian, but I’m not sure I could handle the constant community-gathering of the Cistercians in the chapel for the Liturgy of the Hours. Just as a retreatant I found it pretty exhausting and I tend to jealously guard my solitude.

 

[jennstall]

robertaf:

Greetings Church

I need to pray about this. I have never shared details, publically before and I honestly do not feel comfortable about doing it at this time.

I can tell you that I have had profound experience with the Holy Trinity, that included visions.
I have had visions of both Heaven and Hell. I had a vision of the Church in Prayer in Heaven and on earth.

That is about all I want to say, without much prayer right now.

I hope you understand that I feel uncomfortable doing this publically. In fact, in asking for (name removed by moderator)ut from others, I didn’t mean to ask for details but more or less the Prayer Experience.

I am very interested in hearing about levels of silence, the various stages and places we move through. I wonder if everyone goes through these same dark, silent stages. I do not get a lot of opportunity to talk in such a large group.

As curious as I am, I tend to think that you should keep those experiences close to your heart unless your spiritual director advises you that sharing with a bunch of strangers on the internet is okay.

I wish I could talk more about my own prayer experience, but it is all so new to me. I spent many years play-acting at being a spiritual person. Now that I’m no longer just play-acting, God has been good enough to give me many spiritual consolations in my prayer. I was thinking about this today at Adoration. At first I thought, “Wouldn’t it be great if Jesus spoke to me?” and then I immediately prayed to him, “Please don’t because everyone will think I’m crazy,” just in case he thought I was being serious LOL

 

[csr]

jennstall:

One can be a contemplative even if the only silence & solitude that one has is interior.

Saint Teresa of Avila expressed surprise at the spiritual progress lay people can make, despite being in the world and surrounded by potential distractions. (She also said, IIRC, that she ‘would die a hundred deaths for a single ritual of the Church’. Does anyone know which document contains this quote?)

---

They said in their heart, the whole kindred of them together: Let us abolish all the festival days of God from the land. *

 

[AlanFromWichita]

jennstall:

At first I thought, “Wouldn’t it be great if Jesus spoke to me?” and then I immediately prayed to him, “Please don’t because everyone will think I’m crazy,” just in case he thought I was being serious LOL

Dear jennstall,

I completely understand, but I think it’s unfortunate. Especially in school since we were very young, we are trained never to say anything this is out of the “mainstream” for fear people will judge us. My wife has often said, quoting from some book, "when we talked to God it’s called ‘prayer.’ When God speaks back it’s called ‘psychosis.’ "

Our culture has been so successful at allowing us to be honest with feelings or thoughts that might differ from others that I think we miss out on a lot.

Alan

 

[tru_dvotion]

Agreed, absolutely. Interruptions are a big problem. My solution is to get up earlier than my “neighbors” (spouse and adult sons). I usually have total solitude at 6 a.m. or earlier.

No can do.
My first vocation is spouse, parent and grandparent. My spouse immediately notices my absence and I disturb his sleep when I get up for early prayer. This has always been so. And during the day I have to look after many needy neighbors. (In and out of the house) Sometimes I pray without getting up… but I often fall asleep. So I steal time during my day and I am often interrupted. The one thing I envy about cloistered life… in there… everybody would know when private prayer time is. But on the outside, we have neighbors who do not even know what prayer is.

 

[tru_dvotion]

On the other hand, I have been told by my Spiritual Director and other Contemplatives that they have not gone through the type of Mystical experiences that I did or had the type visions. My Spiritual Director said this type happen only rarely and in fact, he said, “maybe once in 300-500 years.” I do not know if that is true or not, I know it has nothing whatsoever to do with me. I never asked for it or did anything special to deserve or earn it. In fact, at first I wanted to reject it.

Beware of such Spiritual Directors. Flee from them like a plague. They are flatterers and instruments of the Devil. Do you not know that none of these experiences actually advance your spiritual growth? It would have been better for you never to have them than to be told such rubbish, and how the worse for you if you believed him. If an SD points out how wicked and miserable and unworthy you are he is your friend. If he flatters you with praises and encouragements, woe to you if you are fool enough to believe him. Some of the best SDs are the old brothers, whom nobody wants to go to. These can give you the best advice. The popular SD’s are generally suspect. I was sent to one of these about ten years ago. She ran a retreat center about 12 hours away, she was a sister of the Precious Blood. I went to a retreat there, and to my absolute horror, she told me unspeakable flatteries. It was quite nauseating, I was sure I had the misfortune of meeting up with a New Age apostle. People are still flocking to her from my diocese, she is most popular. I never had anything to do with her after that one time.

 

[tru_dvotion]

I went through a period of deep contemplation a few years ago which was the beginning of a ‘new conversion’ experience for me. I spent time contemplating the Face of Christ… Like Roberta, I was advised by my SD to keep a journal. Just a few weeks ago I took it out and reread it. I had forgotten how painful it was when I decided to discontinue… I stopped it because of pride… though lately I’ve been praying about starting it again… Annunciata

It was very astute of you Annunciata. We are better off not going on a route that could harm our soul. Pride is our most dangerous enemy. What would all those mystical experiences do for us if we fell into spiritual pride? Remember, if God wants someone for this type of devotion, he will break through any kind of blockage we may put up to avoid it. We have no resistance against the tide of his will. But if we can resist it, this form of devotion may not be all that good for us. This road is not better or more noble than any other. We are all striving for the same goal. The most important is for us to get there.

 

[tru_dvotion]

There’s a book that talks about this that you mind find interesting. It’s called Poustinia

and it’s by Catherine Doherty. It’s about a Russian hermit/contemplative tradition and in her book she describes that the Poustiniak makes himself available at all times to all who knock at his door. If someone asks him to come and clean out a barn, he goes and cleans out a barn. You may find it speaks to your quest for perfect silence or solitude. One can be a contemplative even if the only silence & solitude that one has is interior. Interior solitude, regardless of one’s physical conditions, is the goal.

My understanding of monasteries is that with the exception of some orders like the Carthusians they tend to be busy places where much more time is spent in community than in solitude. I’m pretty certain I have more solitude in my life than most monks get access to and it is a large part of why I hesitate to commit to the idea of joining a monastery myself. I could never make it as a Carthusian, but I’m not sure I could handle the constant community-gathering of the Cistercians in the chapel for the Liturgy of the Hours. Just as a retreatant I found it pretty exhausting and I tend to jealously guard my solitude.

Yes I think I red it. I do not remember the author though, but a book about poustiniaks rings a bell. Unfortunately, at the time I was not ready for it and it did not make a great impression. It was just a book. But thank you for suggesting it, it sound as if I could truly benefit from it at this stage of my life. I keep reminding myself, that Jesus swept the carpentry shop floor for thirty years and his ministry lasted only for three.

 

[tru_dvotion]

I am very interested in hearing about levels of silence, the various stages and places we move through. I wonder if everyone goes through these same dark, silent stages. I do not get a lot of opportunity to talk in such a large group.

Rejoice in the dry spells. Celebrate the silence. That is when we are getting stretched and we grow. Constant consolations are reserved for the lambs. The deeper we go, the longer and more arid our dry periods become. Remember Jesus entered the desert willingly. We should not despair if the dryness lasts several years and only a few, minor consolation come our way. Then there is a stage, when consolations are also heralds of an added or heavier cross that is to follow.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Dear Roberta,

I invite you

to share with us the mystical experiences that you feel comfortable sharing in this setting.

I do not think that would be prudent, not unless she was instructed by her Spiritual Director to do so. Personally, I would question the wisdom behind such advice anyway. It brings attention to the individual, rather than the message. Chances are, most of her experiences were not meant for the public, as many such experiences cannot be described with words. If there is anything pertinent for others, it is not the seer’s responsibility to make it public, unless it is a stern warning. Besides, seers who go public with their mystical experiences tend to be instruments of the Devil.

 

[robertaf]

tru_dvotion:

I do not think that would be prudent, not unless she was instructed by her Spiritual Director to do so. Personally, I would question the wisdom behind such advice anyway. It brings attention to the individual, rather than the message. Chances are, most of her experiences were not meant for the public, as many such experiences cannot be described with words. If there is anything pertinent for others, it is not the seer’s responsibility to make it public, unless it is a stern warning. Besides, seers who go public with their mystical experiences tend to be instruments of the Devil.

Thank you for this.
I cannot post my journals on line in a public place like this. I have shared them privately to a few. From what I have been told, nothing that I have experienced is new, nothing outside of Catholic Doctrine. Much of it went deeper and made me more aware of the Perfect Truth of Holy Mother Church. I have a deeper understanding of Sacraments.
Two things I maybe should share. I do not call either a “stern warning” but one might be.

I will not go into detail but beg you all to pray, pray, pray for the Holy Spirit to protect and guide the choice of the next Holy Father, whenever that should be. Pray that there be total submission to the guidance of God and all other influences be bound away. Not our will but God’s will be done.

Secondly, look more deeply into the Grace of Sacrament. Form is good, good liturgy is good but God’s Grace is Primary. Try to picture the LOVE that passes back and forth between the Father and the Son as a real and tangible thing which fills and perfects that Grace and allows you to be immersed into it, washing over you and filling you. Never receive a Sacrament in the Church without recognizing this LOVE because it is the Holy Spirit. If I never received anything more life changing, it was this.

Tru_Devtion, please let me assure you, my Spiritual Director was not flattering me but chastising me when he spoke as he did to me. I well deserved it. That is another story but he let me know that these gifts from God are Gods own choice for Gods own reasons and should never ever be questioned. I was indeed, questioning them. I told you, I didn’t do a thing to deserve anything and believe me, I didn’t. I deserved exactly what Father said to me.

 

[DBT]

tru_dvotion:

No can do.
My first vocation is spouse, parent and grandparent. My spouse immediately notices my absence and I disturb his sleep when I get up for early prayer. This has always been so. And during the day I have to look after many needy neighbors. (In and out of the house) Sometimes I pray without getting up… but I often fall asleep. So I steal time during my day and I am often interrupted. The one thing I envy about cloistered life… in there… everybody would know when private prayer time is. But on the outside, we have neighbors who do not even know what prayer is.

Personally I agree with those posters who state that those drawn to a contemplative life will find regular periods of solitude and silence . . . whether in a lay setting or religious. It becomes a big part of who you are. And I guess that’s my main point: contemplation is not something you do, it’s who you are . . . a way of life.

Yes there are distractions and noise that make this life difficult in a lay setting . . . and I agree with you that your primary obligation is to your spouse. But I also believe that if you truely desire contemplation, God will show you a way. We are all called to holiness and contemplation is a possiblity open to all . . . not just those in the cloister.

There is one thing we can do in the midst of all of this: perservere in prayer . . . whether enjoying consolations or facing trials. Perhaps I’m reading to much into your comments, but the apparent resentment you have toward worldly distractions - combined with your envy for those in the monestary - well, maybe all this is really a test on your perserverence and how much you desire to live this kind of life. I apologize if I’m way off the mark here.

By chance have you ever read “Practicing the Presence of God” by Brother Lawrence? He simplified all of this for me. His basic premise is this: that we are to give every thought, word and action to God. In short . . . pray always. Through a lifetime of perserverence, what he called his “Holy Habit,” he was able to experience the heights of contemplation at all times . . . whether praying before the Sacrament or simply doing the dishes for his brothers. He saw no difference between recieving consolations or trials . . . all was a gift from God. The beauty of this little book is that it works equally well for the lay or religious.

 

[Annunciata]

tru_dvotion:

It was very astute of you Annunciata. We are better off not going on a route that could harm our soul. Pride is our most dangerous enemy. What would all those mystical experiences do for us if we fell into spiritual pride? Remember, if God wants someone for this type of devotion, he will break through any kind of blockage we may put up to avoid it. We have no resistance against the tide of his will. But if we can resist it, this form of devotion may not be all that good for us. This road is not better or more noble than any other. We are all striving for the same goal. The most important is for us to get there.

Thanks Tru-dvotion,
You have just comfirmed for me that I should indeed begin again! I see now that ‘The father of lies’ would have had me believing otherwise…
God Bless,
Annunciata

 

[tru_dvotion]

There is one thing we can do in the midst of all of this: perservere in prayer . . . whether enjoying consolations or facing trials. Perhaps I’m reading to much into your comments, but the apparent resentment you have toward worldly distractions - combined with your envy for those in the monestary - well, maybe all this is really a test on your perserverence and how much you desire to live this kind of life. I apologize if I’m way off the mark here.

No you are not off the mark. But this is not a feeling of resentment; it is more like a daily struggle for me. But perhaps it is a necessity that I should struggle so, because if it came easily (say if I could take off to pray at predetermined intervals other than rushing off to daily mass and rushing home again and stealing time for myself to pray) I may not have what I needed the most. But I sometimes long for solitude, (I should be careful what I wish for?), because my life is so busy. I only made it worse by coming to this site, and that will have to be reduced, perhaps cut out altogether. I have not red many of the new posts, because I am painfully aware that my time could be better spent elsewhere. I think if I could have entered the cloistered life, I would have, but it was not a possibility when I was young. I love my family and the people in my life, but sometimes I am not always there for them in spirit, and I just go though the motions fulfilling responsibilities, taking care of others at home and in the community and meanwhile keep having a nagging feeling I belong someplace else? I don’t know if I make myself clear… I AM happy but sometimes I long for more and to be someplace else.

 

[DBT]

tru_dvotion:

No you are not off the mark. But this is not a feeling of resentment; it is more like a daily struggle for me. But perhaps it is a necessity that I should struggle so, because if it came easily (say if I could take off to pray at predetermined intervals other than rushing off to daily mass and rushing home again and stealing time for myself to pray) I may not have what I needed the most. But I sometimes long for solitude, (I should be careful what I wish for?), because my life is so busy. I only made it worse by coming to this site, and that will have to be reduced, perhaps cut out altogether. I have not red many of the new posts, because I am painfully aware that my time could be better spent elsewhere. I think if I could have entered the cloistered life, I would have, but it was not a possibility when I was young. I love my family and the people in my life, but sometimes I am not always there for them in spirit, and I just go though the motions fulfilling responsibilities, taking care of others at home and in the community and meanwhile keep having a nagging feeling I belong someplace else? I don’t know if I make myself clear… I AM happy but sometimes I long for more and to be someplace else.

Dear Tru,

I can certainly relate to your sentiments . . . especially your thoughts about time on these forums being a major distraction from what we probably ought to be doing

I am a father of 4 young children so I can claim distractions with the best of them! I see a lot of myself in your comments . . . particularily your struggle with your call to solitude. This was a MAJOR struggle for me.

All I can say is that my life changed completely when I stopped saying no to that call and simply said yes. Of course this is easier said than done. Perhaps the best thing to do is to start small . . . set aside a few minutes each day and build on that.

Many posters have talked about rising early. I’ve learned to squeeze time for private prayer after dropping the kids off at school and before morning mass. Also, a church very close to my office has Perpetual Adoration so I spend as many lunch hours there that I can. As the saying goes, if there’s a will there’s a way.

One of the greatest benefits I’ve noticed about saying yes to solitude is that giving time to God in private prayer doesn’t come at the expense of my family. My “attitude” simply changes . . . sometimes I’m Martha and sometimes I’m Mary. And this, to me, is what contemplation is all about: solitude fosters a love for God that must be given back to others. Joy comes from the balance between the two.

It sure sounds like you’re doing a lot of giving. Maybe it’s time for you to be Mary for a while. And believe me, you don’t have to live in a cloister to do that.

Well it’s lunch time . . . off to Adoration! I’ll keep you in my prayers.

 

[Chaffa55]

tru_dvotion:

…I do not think that would be prudent, not unless she was instructed by her Spiritual Director to do so. Personally, I would question the wisdom behind such advice anyway…

Dear Tru,
I agree with your observations. I offered my invitation to Roberta as I sensed a desire on her part to share her experiences. Fortunately she reacted and answered prudently. As to the wisdom behind the question, I admit there is none.

Getting back to your prayer schedule issues, have you tried any of these approaches?

• Take refuge in your parish for prayer during the day.
• Find a quiet spot for prayer outside, away from your dwelling (WX permitting).
• If you have a suitable venue, prayer during a walk or stroll might work for you.

If you were to schedule a regular prayer time and venue each day at the same hour, I believe those who depend on you will come to accept it (I think they will benefit from it as well).

 

[jennstall]

AlanFromWichita:

Dear jennstall,

I completely understand, but I think it’s unfortunate. Especially in school since we were very young, we are trained never to say anything this is out of the “mainstream” for fear people will judge us. My wife has often said, quoting from some book, "when we talked to God it’s called ‘prayer.’ When God speaks back it’s called ‘psychosis.’ "

Our culture has been so successful at allowing us to be honest with feelings or thoughts that might differ from others that I think we miss out on a lot.

Alan

Heh. Honestly, I’d mostly fear that I’d think myself crazy since it is likely I wouldn’t tell anyone else. But it’s okay. I don’t feel I’m missing out or that this is something I’ll ever need.

 

[jennstall]

tru_dvotion:

Yes I think I red it. I do not remember the author though, but a book about poustiniaks rings a bell. Unfortunately, at the time I was not ready for it and it did not make a great impression. It was just a book. But thank you for suggesting it, it sound as if I could truly benefit from it at this stage of my life. I keep reminding myself, that Jesus swept the carpentry shop floor for thirty years and his ministry lasted only for three.

You’re welcome. The author might also be listed as Catherine de Heuck or something like that since that was her married name. I had wanted to read it for quite some time since she’s a contemporary of Thomas Merton’s and he mentioned her quite frequently in Seven Storey Mountain and the Secular Journals. I finally got a chance to read the book a few weeks ago while I was on retreat. Enjoy the re-read if you decide to do it!