Contemporary music at mass

[Walking_Home]

Here is the link to the CCC.

 

[alice24]

This is just funny.
As a historian who had to read muuuuch original mediaval stuff, I can tell you, the world was not that humble and against sin and what ever you may think after…watching medieval fantasy?!
It´s the same world of sinful people, humble people, good and bad, but without many religious virtous thinkers born later…and without peniciline.

 

[twf]

You’re wrong about Sub-Sahara Africa. You’re forgetting the Ethiopian Orthodox Church which was certainly alive and well long before the 10th century.
East Asia… depends what you mean by that. Assyrian Christians reached China by the 7th century. In the Pre-Islamic era, the Assyrian Church was far more widespread than we Latins were back in Western Europe.

 

[exnihilo]

Q. 574. What is a Sacrament?

A. A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.

Q. 602. What is sacramental grace?

A. Sacramental grace is a special help which God gives, to attain the end for which He instituted each Sacrament.

I never said marriage is ordination. But it is as a sacrament and all sacraments give special grace to attain the ends for which it was instituted. The husband, as head of the household, therefore has grace for his specific role of authority in the family.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Why is there a place for the kid twanging a guitar during Mass? How does that raise our hearts and minds? I think you are mistaken - - it’s the Holy Mass - - not a talent show.

 

[exnihilo]

Office:

• a position of duty, trust, or authority, especially in the government, a corporation, a society, or the like
• the duty, function, or part of a particular person or agency

Office is not a legal term. Not all sacraments pertain to offices, nor did I say they did. I said marriage has two offices (position of duty…). Do you disagree? Do you think marriage doesn’t have two positions of duty? Do you think it has one or three or more?

 

[Walking_Home]

Yes – marriage is a Sacrament. The Grace(s) of the Sacrament of marriage applies to both husband and wife.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Q. 574. What is a Sacrament?

A. A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.

Q. 602. What is sacramental grace?

A. Sacramental grace is a special help which God gives, to attain the end for which He instituted each Sacrament.

I never said marriage is ordination. But it is as a sacrament and all sacraments give special grace to attain the ends for which it was instituted. The husband, as head of the household, therefore has grace for his specific role of authority in the family.

You’re drawing a correlation that doesn’t exist. We ALL have baptismal rights as priest, profit, and king. The sacrament of marriage doesn’t bestow special “head of household” rights on a man any more than it gives special graces to women. the CCC makes it VERY clear that they are EQUALS in the eyes of God. One could argue it gives different graces, but these are no more effective or special than the graces given to a women in the sacrament of matrimony.

 

[exnihilo]

Yes – marriage is a Sacrament. The Grace(s) of the Sacrament of marriage applies to both husband and wife.

Right. Each receives grace necessary to his or her role. The husband receives grace for his role of head of the family.

Do you agree the husband is the head of the family? Or do you reject this constant teaching of the Church?

You’re drawing a correlation that doesn’t exist. We ALL have baptismal rights as priest, profit, and king. The sacrament of marriage doesn’t bestow special “head of household” rights on a man any more than it gives special graces to women. the CCC makes it VERY clear that they are EQUALS in the eyes of God. One could argue it gives different graces, but these are no more effective or special than the graces given to a women in the sacrament of matrimony.

So you deny the constant teaching of the Church that the man is the head of the household?

 

[Xantippe]

You’re wrong about Sub-Sahara Africa. You’re forgetting the Ethiopian Orthodox Church which was certainly alive and well long before the 10th century.

East Asia… depends what you mean by that. Assyrian Christians reached China by the 7th century. In the Pre-Islamic era, the Assyrian Church was far more widespread than we Latins were back in Western Europe.

I was wondering about Ethiopia–whether that counted as sub-Saharan Africa. Shall we say “No Christianity in sub-Saharan Africa except for Ethiopia”?

When I said East Asia, I meant East Asia, not South Asia. Today, South Korea is about 30% Christian, which I think is amazing.

The geographic reach of Christianity has expanded tremendously since 1492, and Christianity has seen incredible growth in sub-Saharan Africa.

Back in the early 20th century, Belloc could say, “Europe is the faith, and the faith is Europe” and it sound plausible, but that isn’t true today, for reasons both bad (the collapse in European religious practice) and good (the explosion of Christianity in Africa and a lot of growth in East Asia).

 

[twf]

True. Your point remains valid, but I do think it’s important to remember that there were flourishing, ancient Christian traditions in both Africa and Asia while Western Europe was still struggling to leave paganism behind. Of course, the rise of Islam had a huge impact on the decline of Asian Christianity prior to the arrival of European missionaries.

 

[Walking_Home]

I accept this: Husband and wife are subject to one another-- in reverence to Christ.

he grace of the sacrament of Matrimony

1642 Christ is the source of this grace. "Just as of old God encountered his people with a covenant of love and fidelity, so our Savior, the spouse of the Church, now encounters Christian spouses through the sacrament of Matrimony."149 Christ dwells with them, gives them the strength to take up their crosses and so follow him, to rise again after they have fallen, to forgive one another, to bear one another’s burdens, to “be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ,” 150 and to love one another with supernatural, tender, and fruitful love. In the joys of their love and family life he gives them here on earth a foretaste of the wedding feast of the Lamb:

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

So you deny the constant teaching of the Church that the man is the head of the household?

No. I deny that the “head of the household” gets ANY grace not turned out measure for measure with EQUAL graces for the “heart of the household” which is the woman. These may, understandably be different graces but they are NOT, by any means more effective.

To say a man gets more grace than a woman during a sacrament that is administered equally between them would be to make a mockery of the whole institution of marriage and create a lasting imbalance of spiritual grace.

There is no such thing EVER indicated in scripture, CCC or Cannon Law. Even when the “head of the household” is supported, there is absolutely NO evidence that equal (but perhaps different) graces are not given to a woman.

 

[exnihilo]

That isn’t really answering the question. It is a simple question. And it is the constant teaching of the Church. Your refusal to answer the question inclines me to think you do reject this teaching.

So I will pray for you.

 

[alice24]

Please, don´t use the “I will pray for you” as some kind of weapon against people who you think are wrong and need to be “cured” in a way. This sounds so wrong…

 

[whyeyeman]

There’s a tradition in the church to name the enemies of the soul as the world, the flesh and the devil.

And the fall of man is not just “part of it”. It is the very reason that Jesus died, so that we may be saved from original sin. It is the entire basis of Christianity. We are fallen creatures who need to be saved.

 

[exnihilo]

No. I deny that the “head of the household” gets ANY grace not turned out measure for measure with EQUAL graces for the “heart of the household” which is the woman. These may, understandably be different graces but they are NOT, by any means more effective.

To say a man gets more grace than a woman during a sacrament that is administered equally between them would be to make a mockery of the whole institution of marriage and create a lasting imbalance of spiritual grace.

There is no such thing EVER indicated in scripture, CCC or Cannon Law. Even when the “head of the household” is supported, there is absolutely NO evidence that equal (but perhaps different) graces are not given to a woman.

OK. So if I understand you accept the husband is the head of the household. But you deny he is given special graces necessary for this role? If so this also would be at odds with the Faith.

Both husband and wife are given graces to help them maintain their marriage. Both are given graces to raise their children. This grace of parents is an example of grace given to authority. But you think for some reason a grace is not offered to the role of head of the household.

Why the special exception where God doesn’t give grace for a position? In a quest for radical equality you are actually, no doubt inadvertently, lessening the goodness of God.

 

[Xantippe]

And it is the constant teaching of the Church.

Could you find us an authoritative Church document saying that the husband gets more graces than the wife, or that the husband’s prayers are more valued than the wife’s? Because I’m not seeing any documents being cited so far that say those things. Even if the husband is the head of the household (which you can get out of Casti Connubii, just as you get the idea that the wife is the heart of the home), it does not follow that the husband gets more graces or that his prayers carry more weight.

However, interestingly, there’s a NT quote in 1 Peter 3 that suggests that husband’s prayers carry less weight if they inconsiderate or disrespectful to their wives:

“7 Likewise you husbands, live considerately with your wives, bestowing honor on the woman as the weaker sex, since you are joint heirs of the grace of life, in order that your prayers may not be hindered.”

 

[exnihilo]

I understand what you are saying, but if someone denies the constant teaching of the Church we should pray for them.

 

[Walking_Home]

I’ll let Pope John Paul II answer you.

The author of the Letter to the Ephesians sees no contradiction between an exhortation formulated in this way and the words: “Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife” (5:22-23). The author knows that this way of speaking, so profoundly rooted in the customs and religious tradition of the time, is to be understood and carried out in a new way: as a “mutual subjection out of reverence for Christ” (cf. Eph 5:21). This is especially true because the husband is called the “head” of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church; he is so in order to give “himself up for her” (Eph 5:25), and giving himself up for her means giving up even his own life. However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between husband and wife the “subjection” is not one-sided but mutual.

In relation to the “old” this is evidently something “new”: it is an innovation of the Gospel. We find various passages in which the apostolic writings express this innovation, even though they also communicate what is “old”: what is rooted in the religious tradition of Israel, in its way of understanding and explaining the sacred texts, as for example the second chapter of the Book of Genesis.[49]

The apostolic letters are addressed to people living in an environment marked by that same traditional way of thinking and acting. The “innovation” of Christ is a fact: it constitutes the unambiguous content of the evangelical message and is the result of the Redemption. However, the awareness that in marriage there is mutual “subjection of the spouses out of reverence for Christ”, and not just that of the wife to the husband, must gradually establish itself in hearts, consciences, behaviour and customs. This is a call which from that time onwards, does not cease to challenge succeeding generations; it is a call which people have to accept ever anew. Saint Paul not only wrote: “In Christ Jesus… there is no more man or woman”, but also wrote: “There is no more slave or freeman”. Yet how many generations were needed for such a principle to be realized in the history of humanity through the abolition of slavery! And what is one to say of the many forms of slavery to which individuals and peoples are subjected, which have not yet disappeared from history?

But the challenge presented by the “ethos” of the Redemption is clear and definitive. All the reasons in favour of the “subjection” of woman to man in marriage must be understood in the sense of a “mutual subjection” of both “out of reverence for Christ”. The measure of true spousal love finds its deepest source in Christ, who is the Bridegroom of the Church, his Bride.

Mulieris Dignitatem (August 15, 1988) | John Paul II