Continuation of Homosexuality Discussion

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@LateCatholic @Gorgias @Elf01 To present the Catholic doctrine here, sex between men or women is just not what those organs are meant for. Men are free to love one another, (although a sexual love between men is intrinsically disordered) but to express that love in sex is wrong.
 
EZweber said:
To present the Catholic doctrine here, sex between men or women is just not what those organs are meant for. Men are free to love one another, (although a sexual love between men is intrinsically disordered) but to express that love in sex is wrong.
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Clearly not true. If it were, the word ‘homosexual’ would never be part of the doctrine. We would be talking about the evils of sodomy and oral sex. Homosexuality has nothing to do with it.
 
EZweber said:
To present the Catholic doctrine here, sex between men or women is just not what those organs are meant for. Men are free to love one another, (although a sexual love between men is intrinsically disordered) but to express that love in sex is wrong.
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Since this is a new thread (and thanks for starting it), the position put forth is not that the Church should allow gay marriage or allow gay priests. I do not want to even argue whether homosexuality is ‘disordered’ (which is clearly not the case based on the percentages involved as well as homosexuality being documented in over 500 animal species).

The topic should be whether a relationship between two individuals based on love in any way could be considered ‘evil’ or ‘sinful’.

If your only justification for declaring homosexuality as ‘evil’ is improper use of a person’s sex organs, the 1) You haven’t addressed homosexuality but a more general behavior and 2) you are on a very slippery slope that would require a re-thinking of numerous policies. For example, are you saying the sin of homosexuality is ONLY a sin when it involves sex? Is similar activities by heterosexual couples or even single individuals equal to the sin of homosexuality?

To reiterate from the original thread, I know of at least 5 homosexual couples. 4 of which are amazing , loving people. I would put their love up against ANY heterosexual couple. To call their love ‘sinful’ or ‘evil’ is horrible, inhuman even. 3 of those couples have children. They are awesome parents (coaches, parents, teachers, boy scout troop leaders). The last couple are decent people as well, but in fairness they were both in a heterosexual marriage, had an affair, and then divorced.
 
LateCatholic said:
I do not want to even argue whether homosexuality is ‘disordered’ (which is clearly not the case based on the percentages involved as well as homosexuality being documented in over 500 animal species).
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I don’t have much interest in a thread like this, but I could not let these terrible arguments pass. You argue that percentages determine what is ordered and what is disordered. Well, 100% of all over the age of reason are sinners, and sin is most certainly disordered.

Furthermore, some animals kill their own kind with abandon, both adults and young. Does that make human murder OK? It is said that dolphin males rape the females. No doubt we could come up with hundreds of other examples of Animals Behaving Badly. You do not want to draw spiritual conclusions from the animal world.

BTW, since you mention percentages, what percentage of the population do you think is homosexual?
 
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LateCatholic said:
I know of at least 5 homosexual couples. 4 of which are amazing , loving people. I would put their love up against ANY heterosexual couple.
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The problem is no matter how amazing and loving they are their relationship involves sinful sexual activity. We can’t separate the love they have from the sexual sin they commit. At least not if we come down the abstraction ladder and into the reality of the situation in the real world. The two are inextricably linked in, for if we are being honest about it sexual sin is occurring in the overwhelming majority of these relationships. If we deny this we are being naive or dishonest. A heterosexual relationship can also lead to sexual sin but that couple has the ability to get married and thus engage in sinless sex. The homosexual couple has no ability to have sex which is not sinful.
 
snarflemike said:
I don’t have much interest in a thread like this, but I could not let these terrible arguments pass.
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It is not worth arguing about until you define it. What should we agree is the definition of “disordered”? I would say that the word implies a state of being that is not optimal and would be corrected if possible.

By this definition, I claim homosexuality is not disordered. If my child came to me and told me he or she was homosexual, I would not claim them to be in a suboptimal state, nor would I make an effort to “fix” it.

Until we define disorder, there is not point debating it.

As for percentage of homosexuals/bisexuals, on the Kinsey scale, nearly 40% of people claim to have some form of homosexual attraction. However, those that claim to be completely homosexual (no heterosexual attraction whatsoever) is low, perhaps 3-5%.
 
LateCatholic said:
However, those that claim to be completely homosexual (no heterosexual attraction whatsoever) is low, perhaps 3-5%.
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About 2.5% for men, much less for women, so many 1 in 50. My children look around them and think it’s about 1 in 2.
 
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Not only that but when someone gives into homosexuality even in his heart he has sinned. Just as adultery can be committed in the heart so can the lust of homosexuality whether that be of acts or desire. As with all sin, temptation, and disorder, it must be rejected.
 
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Ok, we all know the teaching of the Church about homosexuality. What I cannot understand is the obsession of this forum with this very specific sin. Come on, why we don’t discuss with the same fervor about other sexual sins (fornication, adultery etc)? Even if we focus just our attention on the sins that cry to Heaven why the focus only on sodomy and not on ‘injustice of the wage earner’ or ‘cry of the people oppressed’???
 
Because a lot of times it’s people who aren’t Catholic or people who don’t think it’s a sin who start threads about it. So Catholics are going to comment in light of the faith. As for me not only am I not obsessed with it but never even think about it until I I see a thread on this forum. And if there are posts contrary to my values or to my faith it’s human nature to respond.
 
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aroosi said:
Ok, we all know the teaching of the Church about homosexuality. What I cannot understand is the obsession of this forum with this very specific sin. Come on, why we don’t discuss with the same fervor about other sexual sins (fornication, adultery etc)? Even if we focus just our attention on the sins that cry to Heaven why the focus only on sodomy and not on ‘injustice of the wage earner’ or ‘cry of the people oppressed’???
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Because it’s more In keeping with human nature to identify the “other” as a target of derision.
 
Biologically, anthropologically, human beings come in two kinds: men and women. Each sex has one-half of a reproductive system. So, if someone wishes to marry and conceive children, he or she must join up with someone of the opposite sex. That’s the only way in which marital relations are possible.

People may have a wide variety of preferences, feelings, and attractions. But those are not of a human being’s essence, in the way that biological sex is.

Sometimes I hear it said that the Catholic Church opposes same sex marriage because it is sinful. But that’s not quite right. The Church opposes same sex ‘marriage’ because it is impossible. Two people with non-complementary reproductive systems are not capable of marital relations; thus there can be no marriage.

In any case, the elevation of “orientation” to an essential aspect is a rather recent invention. See HERE, for example.
 
Zach said:
Because a lot of times it’s people who aren’t Catholic or people who don’t think it’s a sin who start threads about it. So Catholics are going to comment in light of the faith. As for me not only am I not obsessed with it but never even think about it until I I see a thread on this forum. And if there are posts contrary to my values or to my faith it’s human nature to respond.
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It’s pretty much an aggressor successively punching the victim and telling the victim to stop punching him or herself.
It would be great if people just accepted the Catholic Church isn’t going to change its (correct) stance on the issue instead of going on and on and on and on and on about how it should change.
 
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Zach said:
Because a lot of times it’s people who aren’t Catholic or people who don’t think it’s a sin who start threads about it.
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That’s not true. Most of the threads right now that have something to do with homosexuality or transgender people were started by people whose profiles say that they’re Catholic. The OP of this thread lists his religion as “Roman Catholic.”
 
JimG said:
The Church opposes same sex ‘marriage’ because it is impossible.
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Different religions can have their own definitions of what constitutes a marriage for them, but the civil institution which gives the two persons involved various rights, responsibilities and protections is obviously not impossible for same-sex couples.
 
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I read it.
Best essay on the topic.
Answers all the questions I instinctively knew existed, but didn’t know how to articulate.

Resonates with basic sexual morality teaching remembered from 8th grade at Catholic school: love is doing what is best for the other person.

The author of the essay sheds light on the current confusion caused by relatively recent (and ever increasing) labels, directing us back to the principles of Church teaching for ordering our human relationships.
 
snarflemike said:
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LateCatholic:
However, those that claim to be completely homosexual (no heterosexual attraction whatsoever) is low, perhaps 3-5%.
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About 2.5% for men, much less for women, so many 1 in 50. My children look around them and think it’s about 1 in 2.
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How about you ask them what they believe homosexuality to be and let us know.
 
How about I don’t.

Hmm, maybe I misunderstood your reply. I’m referring mostly to the massive media presence of homosexual characters and themes.
 
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