Contraception: A Stumbling Block to Ending Abortion

[buffalo]

Contraception: A Stumbling Block to Ending Abortion

Graces given to us at Baptism should encourage us to lead others in Catholic teaching. And they should encourage us to learn more about our faith so that we can school others when they don’t know or don’t understand. This is especially true when such widely-debated issues such as contraception arise. For, when people do not understand the ramifications of contraception, they cannot fully understand abortion.

I recently attended a meeting during which a member of the audience asked a Catholic pro-life leader why more wasn’t being said about the connection between contraception and abortion. The response was “Not everyone has the same charism.”

Rendered momentarily speechless, it occurred to me that this type of vagueness is one of the problems that has plagued pro-life efforts for the past 35 years. Few Catholic pro-life stalwarts ever admit that there is a connection between contraception and abortion — let alone say it publicly!

more…

 

[Scoobyshme]

Contraception: A Stumbling Block to Ending Abortion

Graces given to us at Baptism should encourage us to lead others in Catholic teaching. And they should encourage us to learn more about our faith so that we can school others when they don’t know or don’t understand. This is especially true when such widely-debated issues such as contraception arise. For, when people do not understand the ramifications of contraception, they cannot fully understand abortion.

I recently attended a meeting during which a member of the audience asked a Catholic pro-life leader why more wasn’t being said about the connection between contraception and abortion. The response was “Not everyone has the same charism.”

Rendered momentarily speechless, it occurred to me that this type of vagueness is one of the problems that has plagued pro-life efforts for the past 35 years. Few Catholic pro-life stalwarts ever admit that there is a connection between contraception and abortion — let alone say it publicly!

more…

Well, the “answer” the questioner received wasn’t any sort of answer. It’s unrelated. The real answer is that it’s all related. Abortion, artificial contraception, euthenasia. It’s all trying to replace God as the Author of Life with mere humans. I wish I’d get a chance to be giving that sort of talk. I wouldn’t mince words or mickey mouse around. I’d give it to 'em right between the eyes! Charitably, of course. But right between the eyes!

We can’t afford to water down Christ’s truths, or change them, or be silent about them. That’s sinful. We have our marching orders to spread His whole truth as best we can!

 

[Barbkw]

CONTRACEPTIVE USE

Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use.[8]

guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Who’s having abortions (religion)?

Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.;

Catholic women account for 31.3%,

Jewish women account for 1.3%,

and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions.

18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as “Born-again/Evangelical”.

abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

 

[mommamaree]

CONTRACEPTIVE USE

Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use.[8]

guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Who’s having abortions (religion)?

Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.;

Catholic women account for 31.3%,

Jewish women account for 1.3%,

and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions.

18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as “Born-again/Evangelical”.

abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

This is absolutely, jaw-droppingly unbelievable! Not that I don’t believe your source, but that I cannot fathom how the great majority of women seeking abortions have actually claimed to be Christian. These are women who should have a clear understanding about the awful sinful reality of abortion. This demonstrates the unavoidable and inevitable end of relativistic thinking. These women are either in total rebellion, are tragically misinformed, or are lying about their religious background.

 

[catholictiger]

This is absolutely, jaw-droppingly unbelievable! Not that I don’t believe your source, but that I cannot fathom how the great majority of women seeking abortions have actually claimed to be Christian. These are women who should have a clear understanding about the awful sinful reality of abortion. This demonstrates the unavoidable and inevitable end of relativistic thinking. These women are either in total rebellion, are tragically misinformed, or are lying about their religious background.

while this is far to high keep in mind that catholics and Protestants are the largest percent of the population so thats why the number is so high

but i would love to see what the percentage of cahtolics have abortion against other groups i bet it would be lower.

but i think atheist would be the highest

 

[Barbkw]

I wondered the same thing.

If I was going in for a surgical procedure to kill my child, would I answer honestly when asked about my religion?

What I particularly found questionable is the low percentage of Jewish women. There was an article a while back listing at least 10 militant proabortion Jewish groups. I’ll see if I can refind that list.

 

[stephe1987]

In order to mark “Catholic” I think you should have to be going to Mass and Confession regularly. Otherwise, it should be “Christian - other.” If a woman went to Confession, she would be advised against an abortion and given the resources she needed to either take care of the baby or find an adoptive family for the baby.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…Rendered momentarily speechless, it occurred to me that this type of vagueness is one of the problems that has plagued pro-life efforts for the past 35 years. Few Catholic pro-life stalwarts ever admit that there is a connection between contraception and abortion — let alone say it publicly!

more…

Thanks for the article. After reading this part quoted here and before I clicked on the link, I thought of Judith Brown. Lo and behold, she’s the author. She is one of the gifts to the pro-life community because she speaks up about contraception too.

I sense that many in the pro-life community do not wish to offend or alienate those who use contraception.

 

[PassingThru]

CONTRACEPTIVE USE

Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use.[8]

A post like this makes me want to change the title of the tread to:

Math and Statistics: Misused and abuse

OK, I think we can agree that contraceptive use is very high. I can not think of any research that indicates anything less than 90%, but lets use 80% just to be extremely conservative. I don’t think that assumption will be refuted by anyone, its pretty safe.

Now, if we can accept that 80% of the population uses contraception, you have asserted that 54% of the women who get an abortion are on some form of contraception. You make this point to argue that contraception is tied to abortion. However, do you realize what you have in fact said (with math) is that you over *twice *as likely to seek an abortion if you are *not *using a contraceptive?

Slow down and do the math. 20% of the population is not using contraception, as we mentioned above. That portion of the population is seeking out 46% of the abortions. How is this making your point? In order for your assertion to be correct, we would need *over *46% of the population *not *using contraception, which of course is not remotely realistic.

I am not saying the two are, or are not, connected. But sometimes the misuse of math and statistics makes my head spin. These numbers above do nothing to defend the connection between contraception and abortion, and could be used to support the opposite without any further clarifying data.

 

[mark_a]

Rendered momentarily speechless, it occurred to me that this type of vagueness is one of the problems that has plagued pro-life efforts for the past 35 years. Few Catholic pro-life stalwarts ever admit that there is a connection between contraception and abortion — let alone say it publicly!

It’s surely a rarity to hear it in Church, but I hear it all the time on Catholic radio.

Three cheers for Catholic radio!!

 

[edwest2]

What do women believe an abortion is? What are they told? For a while, it was just “a blob of tissue.” Look at Embryonic Stem Cell research. Comments often go like this: “Are you telling me that a handful of cells the size of a pinhead is a human being?” See? We are told by professionals and advocates that it’s not a person.

priestsforlife.org/staff/alvedaking.htm

There are people speaking up. There are people standing in front of abortion clinics, praying.

We are told abortion is health care, that contraception is health care. How? What problem is being fixed with contraception? Personal self-control?

I watched on TV as a woman yelled: “Keep your beliefs off my body!” Who is in control of her body if not herself?

If we believe we cannot control ourselves, who do we blame? If we believe the only way we can keep the other person in our life from leaving is Artificial Contraception, then perhaps Catholics need to find Catholics who are committed to marriages that are contraceptive free.

As a young man, I was told “no sex before marriage.” The same with the young ladies. Ignore the constant media ‘encouragement’ to do wrong.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Barbkw]

“However, do you realize what you have in fact said (with math) is that you over twice as likely to seek an abortion if you are not using a contraceptive?”

The title of this post is: Contraception: A Stumbling Block to Ending Abortion

Artificial contraception use - is a physical extension of a mental condition.

When a man or a woman are mentally against sharing their lives with another child (or children) their deeds include the use of contraception and abortion.

The use of contraception reinforces negative mental attitudes toward potential children.

When contraception fails, over half of the babies conceived, are killed.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Artificial contraception use - is a physical extension of a mental condition. .

I like that quote!

Too many people think we would have fewer abortions with more contraception. The reality is that abortion became legal and increased after widespread acceptance of contraception. Out of wedlock sexual activity went up drastically. Previously people realized that pregnancy resulted from sexual activity. Now some people think pregnancy results only from “planning”, contraception “failure” or failure to use contraception. Contraception helped create a mental disconnect between sexual activitiy and pregnancy.

 

[PassingThru]

“However, do you realize what you have in fact said (with math) is that you over twice as likely to seek an abortion if you are not using a contraceptive?”

The title of this post is: Contraception: A Stumbling Block to Ending Abortion

Artificial contraception use - is a physical extension of a mental condition.

When a man or a woman are mentally against sharing their lives with another child (or children) their deeds include the use of contraception and abortion.

The use of contraception reinforces negative mental attitudes toward potential children.

Well, you just changed your entire point. You specifically called up your references to support your claim, and I would assume your lack of response in this area is your acknowledgment that it does not, if fact, support your claim.

Ill repeat it here again: I do not have any information to either support or deny a direct connection between contraception and abortion. I personally have trouble seeing it, as I do not have any issue with someones choice to use contraception, but would never in my wildest dreams consider abortion. Many of my 30 something friends are the same. Its not hard to imagine. Again, statistically, we know the vast majority use contraception, but we are pretty evenly split on abortion. Right there, we know there is a huge chunk of the population that supports contraception but not abortion. Everyone here loves to lump the two together, but that is mere opinion at this point. I would propose the of those that use contraception, roughly half support, and half reject abortion. Again, the rough statistics bear this out. How some of your then draw a line is beyond me.

Also, I must point out there are plenty of forces as play through the end of the 50s, into the 60s and beyond. How people are so sure that contraception was to blame is beyond me. Sure, it was there, but so were about 1000 other forces. If you think we could magically erase the pill from history, and therefore the entire sexual revolution would stop, you are probably deluding yourself.

I get the broad point being made. If you are in a sexual relationship and do NOT want a child at all costs, you would likely contracept, and if that failed, you would abort. That a simple logic. If you are someone who would abort, you are likely already using a contraceptive, of course. What I fail to see, is how someone who would not consider abortion is now open to it because of condoms or the pill.

In a practical sense, contraceptives are not going away. If you want to use them in a case against abortion, you need to draw a strong and distinct connection.

When contraception fails, over half of the babies conceived, are killed.

Please tell me where you got this number.

I am venturing a guess that you got this from the link you posted earlier. For your sake, I hope you have a separate source. Its not that this may or may not be roughly accurate. Rather, my guess is you are taking a number in your given link and completely mis-interpreting what the data is saying; basically making another mistake with statistical data, as you did the first time.

 

[dskysmine]

A post like this makes me want to change the title of the tread to:

Math and Statistics: Misused and abuse

OK, I think we can agree that contraceptive use is very high. I can not think of any research that indicates anything less than 90%, but lets use 80% just to be extremely conservative. I don’t think that assumption will be refuted by anyone, its pretty safe.

Now, if we can accept that 80% of the population uses contraception, you have asserted that 54% of the women who get an abortion are on some form of contraception. You make this point to argue that contraception is tied to abortion. However, do you realize what you have in fact said (with math) is that you over *twice *as likely to seek an abortion if you are *not *using a contraceptive?

I think you may be somewhat confused.
“Overall, 62% of the 62 million women aged 15–44 are currently using a method.[2]”
“Almost one-third (31%) of these 62 million women do not need a method because they are infertile; are pregnant, postpartum or trying to become pregnant; have never had intercourse; or are not sexually active.[2]”
2. Mosher WD and Jones J, Use of contraception in the United States: 1982–2008, Vital and Health Statistics, 2010, Series 23, No. 29.

Slow down and do the math. 20% of the population is not using contraception, as we mentioned above. That portion of the population is seeking out 46% of the abortions. How is this making your point? In order for your assertion to be correct, we would need *over *46% of the population *not *using contraception, which of course is not remotely realistic.

I am not saying the two are, or are not, connected. But sometimes the misuse of math and statistics makes my head spin. These numbers above do nothing to defend the connection between contraception and abortion, and could be used to support the opposite without any further clarifying data.

It is true that the numbers in themselves do not tell us much. We don’t know if the 46% of the people who weren’t using a contraceptive didn’t use it because they forgot to, or if they don’t usually use it, or if they never used it. It does tell us that most contraceptives are inneficient or have poor results (if the purpose is to not get pregnant), but we can’t tell if it is due to factual inneficiency or ill-use. It’s almost 50/50 percent that people who abort use or do not use contraceptives… it kinda makes you think “what’s the point of using them if you still have to abort”?

What we can conclude from the facts we were given is that people won’t get fussy about their conscience if it’s something they really want (for the religion statistics at least).

 

[PassingThru]

I think you may be somewhat confused.
“Overall, 62% of the 62 million women aged 15–44 are currently using a method.[2]”
“Almost one-third (31%) of these 62 million women do not need a method because they are infertile; are pregnant, postpartum or trying to become pregnant; have never had intercourse; or are not sexually active.[2]”
2. Mosher WD and Jones J, Use of contraception in the United States: 1982–2008, Vital and Health Statistics, 2010, Series 23, No. 29.

Good info. Lets take a look.

Our population is 62 million. 62% of these use contraception. Your next line tells us that 31% of these women are infertile, pregnant, etc. Basically, they fall out of our equation. That leaves us 42.8 million “sexually active and fertile” women. From your first line, we know that 38.5 million of these women are using contraception. This is an almost perfect 90%. That means, 90% of the women who are sexually active are using contraception. This lines up with most every survey I have read, so your numbers sound reasonable.

EDIT: Rates of contraception use are usually quoted as a percentage of sexually active and fertile couples. It would make no sense to include those outside of this population, and I will assume this is self-evident. If not, feel free to respond.

Now, I brought this up in response to a claim that 54% of the women who get an abortion are using contraceptives. Again, these numbers only support the idea that your are far MORE likely to seek an abortion if you are NOT using a contraceptive. I am not making this claim. I am only pointing out what this simple and unbounded data provides.

Where am I confused, exactly?

It is true that the numbers in themselves do not tell us much. We don’t know if the 46% of the people who weren’t using a contraceptive didn’t use it because they forgot to, or if they don’t usually use it, or if they never used it. It does tell us that most contraceptives are inneficient or have poor results (if the purpose is to not get pregnant), but we can’t tell if it is due to factual inneficiency or ill-use. It’s almost 50/50 percent that people who abort use or do not use contraceptives… it kinda makes you think “what’s the point of using them if you still have to abort”?

What we can conclude from the facts we were given is that people won’t get fussy about their conscience if it’s something they really want (for the religion statistics at least).

Again, you are mixing personal opinion into numbers. You said “It does tell us that most contraceptives are inneficient or have poor results” It says no such thing. We are lacking any data to make such a broad claim. In reality, it points in the opposite direction. Again, if 90% of the population is using contraceptives, but they only represent roughly half of the population seeking abortions, that tells us that contraceptives are keeping women out of abortion clinics.

Let me repeat this again. I am not proposing that contraceptives keep women from getting abortions. What I am saying is that these attempts to support the connection between abortions and contraception using the statistics provided is a failed and erroneous effort. These stats do NOT support the claim. That is all.

I do agree with parts of your statement, however. These stats do not tell us much, at all. And people will see what they want to see. How they see these stats as supportive, however, is beyond me.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…Ill repeat it here again: I do not have any information to either support or deny a direct connection between contraception and abortion. I personally have trouble seeing it, as I do not have any issue with someones choice to use contraception, but would never in my wildest dreams consider abortion. Many of my 30 something friends are the same. Its not hard to imagine. Again, statistically, we know the vast majority use contraception, but we are pretty evenly split on abortion. Right there, we know there is a huge chunk of the population that supports contraception but not abortion. Everyone here loves to lump the two together, but that is mere opinion at this point. I would propose the of those that use contraception, roughly half support, and half reject abortion. Again, the rough statistics bear this out. How some of your then draw a line is beyond me.

Also, I must point out there are plenty of forces as play through the end of the 50s, into the 60s and beyond. How people are so sure that contraception was to blame is beyond me. Sure, it was there, but so were about 1000 other forces. If you think we could magically erase the pill from history, and therefore the entire sexual revolution would stop, you are probably deluding yourself.

I get the broad point being made. If you are in a sexual relationship and do NOT want a child at all costs, you would likely contracept, and if that failed, you would abort. That a simple logic. If you are someone who would abort, you are likely already using a contraceptive, of course. What I fail to see, is how someone who would not consider abortion is now open to it because of condoms or the pill.

In a practical sense, contraceptives are not going away. If you want to use them in a case against abortion, you need to draw a strong and distinct connection.

.

Hi, I appreciate your participation in this discussion. Yes, I realize that many people who use contraception do not support abortion. However, many if not most of those people fail to realize that some commonly used forms of contraception cause very early abortions. Philosophical discussions aside, that is one very direct connection between contraception and abortion.

Here’s some information regarding contraceptions that cause abortion. I quoted from this weblink. lifesitenews.com/abortiontypes/pillabortion_types.html

Birth control pills are routinely described as “contraceptives”, that is, things that prevent conception, the beginning of a new human life. But in fact birth control pills sometimes act as “abortifacients”, things that cause abortion.
Birth control pills act in three basic ways: (This information can be obtained from any standard reference work, such as the Physicians’ Desk Reference.)

1. • They suppress ovulation, that is, they prevent the woman’s body from releasing an egg.
   • They thicken the woman’s cervical mucus, which makes it more difficult for sperm to reach the egg.
   • They alter the lining of the uterus so that the zygote (fertilized egg, the first stage in the life of a human being) cannot implant. The developing baby receives his oxygen and nutrition through the uterus, so if the zygote-baby cannot implant, he starves to death. This is, therefore, an abortion.

1. 
   There are basically three types of birth control pills:
   

   • high-dose, progestin and estrogen;
   • low-dose, about half as much progestin and estrogen; and
   • mini-pill, small amount of progestin, no estrogen.

   The early high-dose birth control pills acted primarily by suppressing ovulation. Studies found that these pills succeeded in preventing ovulation somewhere between 90 and 98% of the time. However, high-estrogen pills are no longer available in Canada or the United States . They were removed from the market because of various dangerous side effects.
   

   The newer low-dose pills are less effective at preventing ovulation and therefore rely more on the remaining two functions. As an egg is microscopic, it can be difficult to tell in any given case whether an egg really has been released. But Dutch gynecologist Dr Nine Van der Vange made an extensive study of women using these pills. She found proof that an egg had been released in 4% of the cases, and found follicle growth typical of what one finds in early pregnancy in at least 52% of cases. The workings of the mini-pill are not fully understood, but it appears to allow ovulation at least 40% of the time, according to Emory University’s Contraceptive Technology. Ovulation expert Dr. John Billings estimates that between 2 and 10 per cent of a woman’s cycles are still ovulatory even when she is taking the Pill. That means there is a chance she can still conceive a child; but because of the Pill’s effect on the lining of the womb, the child will not be able to implant, and will be expelled from the mother’s body. Although this might seem to be a small percentage risk, over time the likelihood is great. Moreover, there really is no such thing as a “negligible” risk of aborting a baby. In this case, any risk is too great.

   and
   

   The Intra-Uterine Device (I.U.D)
   The I.U.D. is a specially shaped piece of plastic or metal that must be inserted into the uterus by a doctor. Although it is not known for sure how it works, it is believed that an I.U.D. changes the lining of the uterus to prevent the fertilized egg from being implanted [emphasis added]. It may also slow the sperm down enough to prevent it from reaching the uterus.

 

[PassingThru]

Hi, I appreciate your participation in this discussion. Yes, I realize that many people who use contraception do not support abortion. However, many if not most of those people fail to realize that some commonly used forms of contraception cause very early abortions. Philosophical discussions aside, that is one very direct connection between contraception and abortion.

Here’s some information regarding contraceptions that cause abortion. I quoted from this weblink. lifesitenews.com/abortiontypes/pillabortion_types.html
and

Two quick points:

One, the abortifacient effect of the pill is not the basis of this discussion. It is related, but not the point of the OP. However, I do agree with your point, even if it is a tangent to the original discussion.

Second point is again statistical in nature. Running with your referenced assumption, they report that the pill reduces ovulation to 2, 4, or possibly as high as 10%. OK, sounds good to me. The second effect the pill has is making it harder for sperm and egg to meet, but this is unquantified. Then, the egg has a very small chance of implanting, which is the third way the pill reduces pregnancy, and is the abortifacient effect. Lets apply these statistics to two couples, sexually active, and for all intents and purposes equal.

The couple not contracepting will have a ~40-50% chance of a fertilized egg *not *implanting in the uterus, and in effect, dieing. (I have seen different numbers, feel free to put in whatever number is naturally occurring, but I think this is a good rough estimate.)

The couple using the pill will have a near 100% chance of any fertilized egg *not *implanting. However, before we get to this point we need to factor in the other effects of the pill. Using your supplied reference, we can estimate that 6% of eggs will still be released, down from 100%. (your reference had 2-10% and a 4% quote) We don’t know the rate at which sperm is less likely to meet egg, but lets say 50%, which is likely conservative. Using these numbers, we have a reduction of 97% of the rate of fertilized eggs, but with a 100% rate of implantation failure.

So, the summary would be, all other factors being equal, the pill gives a 97% reduction in the chance of an egg being fertilized, with a 100% implantation failure rate. If you compare this with no reduction in fertilization rate, with a 40 or 50% implantation failure rate, your chances of having a failed implantation are over 10 times higher when *not * on the pill.

Of course, this is not a realistic comparison because the non contracepting couple would get pregnant far faster, we are not taking into account frequency or timing of sex, such as NFP, and any other myraid of calculations. But this would be my final point in all of this:

If two otherwise equal couples took 3 years to get pregnant, one couple just “rolled the dice” until it happened, and the other took the pill, statistically speaking, the couple who “rolled the dice” was far more likely to have a failed implantation than the couple on the pill. Again, statistically, this is correct.

In the real world? Who knows. I completely agree with your point, but even then, we can not say it increases or decreases the chances, overall, of a failed implantation in a given population.

And either way, this is still a side point to the OPs question. Even if the pill never caused a single failed implantation, his question still stands.

ps I used “failed implantation” because using aborted zygote would get tiring to use for the pill while having to use a different term for a naturally occurring failed implantation.

 

[mark_a]

In the real world? Who knows. I completely agree with your point, but even then, we can not say it increases or decreases the chances, overall, of a failed implantation in a given population.

When I die and go to heaven and God introduces me to say, ten of my naturally failed implantations, I have a clear concience and am united with family.

When I meet the two of my abortificient induced failed implantations, what will I tell them?

 

[gardenswithkids]

Two quick points:

One, the abortifacient effect of the pill is not the basis of this discussion. It is related, but not the point of the OP. However, I do agree with your point, even if it is a tangent to the original discussion…And either way, this is still a side point to the OPs question. …

I’m not the op but I disagree that it’s a sidepoint. Buffalo quoted from the article she/he linked on the original post. The article goes onto make the point about the abortificant nature of contraception a few times. Here’s a quote within the article. “The close connection which exists, in mentality, between the practice of contraception and that of abortion is becoming increasingly obvious. It is being demonstrated in an alarming way by the development of chemical products, intrauterine devices and vaccines which … really act as abortifacients in the very early stages of the development of the life of the new human being.”
The article doesn’t stop discuss the mentality that connects contraception with abortion–it specifically mentions things that many people regard as contraceptives that are abortifacients. The article’s author, Judith Brown, has been very active in the pro-life movement for many years. She is not quiet about the link between contraception and abortion. Here’s a link from her group, American Life League (ALL) that links for further information on the abortion-contraception connection. all.org/issues_birthcontrol.php

…Second point is again statistical in nature…Then, the egg has a very small chance of implanting, which is the third way the pill reduces pregnancy, and is the abortifacient effect. Lets apply these statistics to two couples, sexually active, and for all intents and purposes equal…

I read through what you wrote but your statistical analysis seems to ignore some* vast moral differences*. I’ll use the death of older humans for comparisson. There is a huge moral and legal difference between a death from natural causes, a death from medical neglect, death from manslaughter and a death from murder.