Contraception and Natural Family Planning

[Michelle9]

But if they marry and contracept, they are still sinning. Having sex outside of marriage isn’t any worse than using contraception to avoid having children. The goal is not contentment - the goal is Heaven.

All I can say is that I don’t agree. Premarital sex is prohibited in the Bible because sex is supposed to be with your spouse.

 

[ahs]

But if they marry and contracept, they are still sinning. Having sex outside of marriage isn’t any worse than using contraception to avoid having children. The goal is not contentment - the goal is Heaven.

YES! And no where does Jesus ever promise that we’ll be content or happy here on earth, or that the road to Heaven will be all smiles and contentment. In fact, He and the Apostles teach us quite the contrary.

 

[ahs]

All I can say is that I don’t agree. Premarital sex is prohibited in the Bible because sex is supposed to be with your spouse.

And Onan was killed for what he DID, and men who had sex with men or animals were condemned to death, and women who had sex with animal condemned to death, because sex is supposed to be ordered to procreation.

 

[Michelle9]

Well, those who don’t want children are not forced to be married. If such a person chooses to be married, they are choosing what marriage IS, by natural moral law. It’s not something that the Church can simply change. It is a natural order that God has established.

For those who want children and are married, yet there is a risk, that couple can still have a marriage ordered to procreation and still engage in sex during infertile times, while avoiding sex during fertile times, as long as the just reason persists.

The whole point I am trying to make is they want to be married! They just might not want to have children for whatever reason!

Why not? God never said we don’t have free will to decide for ourselves!

 

[Michelle9]

And Onan was killed for what he DID, and men who had sex with men or animals were condemned to death, and women who had sex with animal condemned to death, because sex is supposed to be ordered to procreation.

You I’m sorry are very confused. Sex is prohibited with animals or men with men not just because of procreation but because God made the woman and the man to come together.
And Onan was not killed because he spilled his seed but because he didn’t marry someone I forget now who.

 

[thewanderer]

What about the woman who can’t risk a pregnancy? What about those who are older like their late 40’s and no longer desire children? Can’t you see how unfair that is to these people? There is nothing wrong with not wanting children if both are in accord with that. I do see it as a problem if one does and the other doesn’t.

I must admit that I’m a little confused by this statement. I don’t want to come across as though I am attacking you, but I am genuinely curious. Why do you think it is unfair to the woman who can’t risk a pregnancy to use NFP instead of artificial contraception?

 

[ahs]

The whole point I am trying to make is they want to be married! They just might not want to have children for whatever reason!

What they want is a license to commit adultery/fornication. If they wanted “marriage”, it would, by natural law definition, mean an openness to procreation!

Why not? God never said we don’t have free will to decide for ourselves!

You bet that we have free will. We can accept God’s Law, or we can reject it. What did Christ say about the roads to Eternal Life and to Perdition? Many choose death…it’s their free choice…but that doesn’t make it right.

 

[Michelle9]

What they want is a license to commit adultery/fornication. If they wanted “marriage”, it would, by natural law definition, mean an openness to procreation!

You bet that we have free will. We can accept God’s Law, or we can reject it. What did Christ say about the roads to Eternal Life and to Perdition? Many choose death…it’s their free choice…but that doesn’t make it right.

Huh? They want to get married because they love each other. How hard is that to understand?

 

[ahs]

You I’m sorry are very confused. Sex is prohibited with animals or men with men not just because of procreation but because God made the woman and the man to come together.
And Onan was not killed because he spilled his seed but because he didn’t marry someone I forget now who.

Then let’s explore…

How did God make them “to come together” and in what way is this contrary to an man+man or man+animal?

Read the verse again, it says “…and what he DID…”, not “what he did not do…”.

 

[Michelle9]

I must admit that I’m a little confused by this statement. I don’t want to come across as though I am attacking you, but I am genuinely curious. Why do you think it is unfair to the woman who can’t risk a pregnancy to use NFP instead of artificial contraception?

No I have no problem with you. You actually make sense! Hmm I think the method of charting fertility is cumbersome. My own periods are not very regular. Nor am I very organized at keeping track of my own periods!

 

[ahs]

Huh? They want to get married because they love each other. How hard is that to understand?

Define “love”. I say they want to have license for sex because they love themselves and are not willing to express true “love” when they purposefully refuse the procreative aspect of the marital act. But let’s define “love” so we are on the same page.

Please also go back and address all the questions/concerns brought up. They all fit together so maybe one long post to tuck it all into? Hopefully we can continue this tomorrow?

In Christ,
Dave

 

[Michelle9]

Define “love”. I say they want to have license for sex because they love themselves and are not willing to express true “love” when they purposefully refuse the procreative aspect of the marital act. But let’s define “love” so we are on the same page.

Please also go back and address all the questions/concerns brought up. They all fit together so maybe one long post to tuck it all into? Hopefully we can continue this tomorrow?

In Christ,
Dave

I disagree. One can not say their love is not true just because they don’t want children.

 

[Corki]

Huh? They want to get married because they love each other. How hard is that to understand?

It’s not hard to understand but understanding doesn’t mean agreement.

If a couple wants to get married because they love each other but don’t want to accept the procreative aspect of marriage, iIt would be wrong.

It would also be wrong for a couple to marry because they want children but don’t intend to remain faithful or to even remain together permanently.

Both would be wrong because both would be to marry for the wrong reasons. They want only 1/2 of what marriage is.

 

[Michelle9]

Then let’s explore…

How did God make them “to come together” and in what way is this contrary to an man+man or man+animal?

Read the verse again, it says “…and what he DID…”, not “what he did not do…”.

Judah got a wife for Er, his first-born; her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah’s first born, was displeasing to the Lord and the Lord took his life. Then Judah said to Onan, “Join with your brother’s wife and do your duty by her as a brother-in-law, and provide offspring for your brother.” But Onan, knowing that the seed would not count as his, let it go to waste whenever he joined with his brother’s wife, so as not to provide offspring for his brother. What he did was displeasing to the Lord, and He took his life also.

Here is the Onan verse. Onan was supposed to give children to his brother-in-law’s wife but didn’t want to because the children would not count as his. Why this would not count as his children must have been some tribal custom. Because he would indeed be their biological father.

 

[Michelle9]

It’s not hard to understand but understanding doesn’t mean agreement.

If a couple wants to get married because they love each other but don’t want to accept the procreative aspect of marriage, iIt would be wrong.

It would also be wrong for a couple to marry because they want children but don’t intend to remain faithful or to even remain together permanently.

Both would be wrong because both would be to marry for the wrong reasons. They want only 1/2 of what marriage is.

I am talking about a couple who intend to remain married permanently and to be faithful but don’t want to have children. It is unfair to say that they are sinning or their marriage is not right.

 

[thewanderer]

No I have no problem with you. You actually make sense! Hmm I think the method of charting fertility is cumbersome. My own periods are not very regular. Nor am I very organized at keeping track of my own periods!

Ok, for a minute I thought you were suggesting sometthing else… like NFP just being the ineffective rhythm method or something.

 

[Corki]

I am talking about a couple who intend to remain married permanently and to be faithful but don’t want to have children. It is unfair to say that they are sinning or their marriage is not right.

Yes, and I am talking about a couple who want children but don’t want the permanence or fidelity. Would you say it was unfair to say that their marriage is not right? It’s no more wrong or sinful than the one you are talking about.

 

[thewanderer]

No I have no problem with you. You actually make sense! Hmm I think the method of charting fertility is cumbersome. My own periods are not very regular. Nor am I very organized at keeping track of my own periods!

Oh, well if thats all you mean, it really doesn’t seem like a big deal to me. Its just a matter of developing a new habit, like brushing your teeth, doing your hair, or putting on make-up. For most women, putting on make-up in the morning and taking it off in the evening is no big deal, they’re used to it, its part of their routine. For me, it seems like a huge pain in the neck and something thats just plain not worth it. The difference? they have developed the habit of putting on makeup and I have not. The same is true with charting, or even a condom (you have to get in the habit of using it or else it would be too easy in the heat of the moment to just go for it and not stop to put it on. )

 

[Michelle9]

Oh, well if thats all you mean, it really doesn’t seem like a big deal to me. Its just a matter of developing a new habit, like brushing your teeth, doing your hair, or putting on make-up. For most women, putting on make-up in the morning and taking it off in the evening is no big deal, they’re used to it, its part of their routine. For me, it seems like a huge pain in the neck and something thats just plain not worth it. The difference? they have developed the habit of putting on makeup and I have not. The same is true with charting, or even a condom (you have to get in the habit of using it or else it would be too easy in the heat of the moment to just go for it and not stop to put it on. )

LOL you have a way with words! Yes it probably just requires a new habit!

 

[ahs]

Judah got a wife for Er, his first-born; her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah’s first born, was displeasing to the Lord and the Lord took his life. Then Judah said to Onan, “Join with your brother’s wife and do your duty by her as a brother-in-law, and provide offspring for your brother.” But Onan, knowing that the seed would not count as his, let it go to waste whenever he joined with his brother’s wife, so as not to provide offspring for his brother. What he did was displeasing to the Lord, and He took his life also.

Here is the Onan verse. Onan was supposed to give children to his brother-in-law’s wife but didn’t want to because the children would not count as his. Why this would not count as his children must have been some tribal custom. Because he would indeed be their biological father.

We know from Dueteronomy that Onan’s failure to provide offspring was an offense against their custom. We also know from Dueteronomy the punishement for it…public humiliation, not death. Yet the Lord killed Onan. Why? For what he DID, not what he didn’t do. And what he DID was let his seed go to waste…spilled his seed…withdrew during intercourse…the primitive form of contraception. I recommend a book by Patrick Coffin called “Sex au Naturel”. There is also one called “Holy Sex!”, by Gergory Popcak.

I am talking about a couple who intend to remain married permanently and to be faithful but don’t want to have children. It is unfair to say that they are sinning or their marriage is not right.

Let’s explore this, as I had hoped you would yesterday, but it must have gotten lost in the back-n-forth.

A couple wants to remian “married” and faithful to one another, permanently, but never wants children. What’s teh difference between that and a homosexual couple, or a person wanting to marry his/her animal?