Contraception and vocations

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Old fashioned.

 

[TheLittleLady]

The modern U.S. economy would not allow this family to survive. Consider my family of four… mother stays home to tend to the children; father has a relatively high paying job for the area. They struggle to pay bills, keep food on the table, have to depend on charity for medical expenses, and narrowly avoided foreclosure. Another child would be their downfall. We simply don’t live in that era anymore, nor does our government / business leaders show any interest in supporting the working class in their efforts to make this lifestyle survivable.

The suggestion was made to live simply.

This would be a subjective term, for some it might mean living in an extended family unit. For others moving to a low cost of living area.

Heck, growing up while our family business was unconventional, everyone worked in that business. We were homeschooled. All of us kids had jobs within the family business. As we reached our teen years we were also taking jobs outside of the family business or doing other “entrepreneurial” things. We paid for the extras that we wanted through these side jobs.

Between 8th and 9th grade, I ran a little shop that sold things I made, things I found (fossils) to tourists. Saved enough that summer to buy my dad a dirtbike for his birthday.

Getting kids more involved in working, instilling a work ethic, is a good thing for every family, regardless of size.

 

[thistle]

Is it not considered a great honor to have a son who is a priest?

Yes, here in the Philippines.

 

[Peeps]

It is possible to use NFP sinfully, to avoid conception when there is no grave or serious reason to avoid it.

How can you possibly know this? How can you judge other couples?

What may seem trivial or selfish to you might be very serious to another couple.

As the late great Ann Landers used to say, MYOB.

 

[Peeps]

I’ve also got to think that some people don’t go to confession as often as they should because it’s simply not offered as freely as it should be. An hour on Saturday afternoon once a week doesn’t even begin to touch what should be the demand for the sacrament. And “making an appointment” is not as attractive as it might sound — for one thing, there is no room for anonymity.

This is my reason. I work two weekends a month, sometimes more if we are short in the hospital. I start work at 6:00 a.m. and I often don’t get out of work on Saturday until 4:30 or later. Confessions are offered at our parish from 9:30-10:30 a.m. on Saturday a.m., and from 3:30-4:30 p.m. on Saturday p.m.

So I’m out of luck.

Even during the week, my work schedule is pretty onerous. So making an appt. is kinda dicey.

But I also know that our priests have even worse work schedules than I do, and it’s difficult for them to find more time for scheduling hours for the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

I have to say, though, that if I commit a mortal sin, I do call and make an appointment.

 

[Peeps]

The faithful need to donate more to the Church and, of course, support the monasteries and convents. I would be very interested to see how Catholic donations compare with, for instance, Episcopal, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, and so on. Tithing might be a plan for those in higher income brackets.

My husband and I are converts from Evangelical Protestantism; we.converted to Catholicism in 2004 after 47 years of super-involvement with our various Evangelical churches. I say “various” because we moved several times and attended different churches over the years.

Are you aware that the Mainlines that you mentioned (Episcopal, Lutheran,Presbyterian, and to a certain, Methodist) are in membership free-fall and have been for decades?

Many of the churches have a few DOZEN members and many many shut-ins who are still on the membership roster, but don’t give any money or time to their church anymore other than prayer (which is valuable!).

Are you aware that there are hundreds of “varieties” of Baptists, ranging from very liberal (pro-abortion, pro-gay rights, pro-feminism, pro-occult practices, etc.) to very conservative (anti-everything in my list!), to just plain scary (snake-handling, poison-drinking, etc.) There are even Baptists who utilize traditional practices in their worship (Latin chant, confession, candles, incense, weekly Communion, etc.) .

The Mainline denominations are so very different than the Evangelical denominations that I don’t think they should be mentioned in the same breath!

My husband was raised Pentecostal (which are usually lumped into the Evangelical Protestants, but there are reasons why they should be considered separately). In his churches, tithing was MANDATORY for members (and most people who attended the church joined the church and became members back then–not so nowadays).

In the church were I grew up (Swedish Baptist), tithing wasn’t mandatory, but it was expected. This is the case in many Evangelical denominations.

So yes, you’re right, some Protestant denominations are filled with tithers. But not all by a long shot.

And at this point in history, Evangelical denominations are starting to see a crisis as people do the “church hop” and move from church to church, even attending several churches to get the maximum “worship experience.” This means that they are generally not tithing to one church, but dividing their tithe up between church and various parachurch organizations (like Prison Fellowship, Samaritan’s Purse, etc.)

Most Evangelical Protestant churches do not have a school attached to them, so they don’t have to support the school. Even if there is a school on the same campus, chances are good that much of the school’s student body comes from other churches, including Catholic, or no church at all. Many people send their kids to “Christian schools” in our city because the public schools’ test scores are abysmal.

I guess what I’m trying to say in this post is that you don’t seem to know a lot, so it might be good to do less speculating and more studying and to stop longing for a past that is gone with the wind.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

It is possible to use NFP sinfully, to avoid conception when there is no grave or serious reason to avoid it.

I said it is possible. I did not say it is common. Generally speaking, couples who use NFP are open to the possibility of an unplanned pregnancy. It is a different mindset.

I do know that it is possible to use NFP sinfully, because I did it myself. Miserere mei Domine.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I guess what I’m trying to say in this post is that you don’t seem to know a lot, so it might be good to do less speculating and more studying and to stop longing for a past that is gone with the wind.

Whether I “know a lot” or not, I suppose the verdict is still out on that. I will make no effort to defend my level of education or years of life experience. I do know what I see. I do know that most people live in objectively mortal sin by using contraception. I do know that most people could have more children than they do.

 

[thistle]

I do know that most people live in objectively mortal sin by using contraception.

Stop judging. You have no right to do that.
As you say you know most people do that I assume you have interviewed all 1.2 billion Catholics or you equate yourself to God who is the only one that knows such things.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Stop judging. You have no right to do that.

I have not judged anybody. It is our right, and our duty, to reiterate the teaching of the Church. I said “objectively”. I cannot judge the subjective disposition of anyone’s soul, and I have not done that.

As you say you know most people do that I assume you have interviewed all 1.2 billion Catholics or you equate yourself to God who is the only one that knows such things.

I know what the polls say. There may be societies where people do not believe in contraception and do not use it.

 

[thistle]

Stop judging. You have no right to do that.

You cannot judge in any shape or form that “MOST PEOPLE” live in objectively mortal sin.
That is an outrageous judgement which you should immediately cease.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

• Larger families (and by this I mean more than the “two or three and we’re done” mentality) begin to emerge as the faithful welcome children on God’s terms, not their own.
• Families begin to live much more simply (they pretty much have to), and more and more women stay at home.

I agree that the modern economy makes it more difficult to have a large family, and to be open to the possibility of unplanned children, than in times past. At least in this country, two or three generations ago, it was entirely possible for a man, with minimal education, to work at some kind of semi-skilled job (as in a factory) and earn enough to support a family in a simple manner. Not so much anymore.

Given the present economic realities, then, young people contemplating marriage might well conclude that marriage might not, in fact, be their best choice. They could delay marriage or forego it entirely. As I said in my original post, then, the priesthood or the religious life could appear attractive by comparison. Or they could choose simply to remain single and live in the secular world.

In my growing up, we had a pithy little maxim, “it’s not what you want, it’s what God wants”. We could do far worse than to have this thought before our eyes every single day of our lives.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

You cannot judge in any shape or form that “MOST PEOPLE” live in objectively mortal sin.
That is an outrageous judgement which you should immediately cease.

I certainly can judge that most people persist in doing things that are objectively mortally sinful. “Objectively” refers to the act being performed, not to the subjective dispositions of the person performing the act, nor to their subjective culpability before Almighty God.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Peeps:

I guess what I’m trying to say in this post is that you don’t seem to know a lot, so it might be good to do less speculating and more studying and to stop longing for a past that is gone with the wind.

Whether I “know a lot” or not, I suppose the verdict is still out on that. I will make no effort to defend my level of education or years of life experience. I do know what I see. I do know that most people live in objectively mortal sin by using contraception. I do know that most people could have more children than they do.

I suppose you’d see me with only two kids and still well within childbearing years and think to yourself, “she must be contracepting. She could have more children!” And perhaps you’d see me going up for communion and think to yourself “how could she receive when she is surely contracepting”.

What you can’t tell from where you are sitting is that despite trying I have not successfully carried a child to term since those two kiddos, and I just suffer a miscarriage.

There are millions of women just like me who struggle to conceive. You wouldn’t know it from where you are sitting.

 

[thistle]

I certainly can judge that most people persist in doing things that are objectively mortally sinful. “Objectively” refers to the act being performed, not to the subjective dispositions of the person performing the act.

That is complete nonsense you are talking. YOU ARE JUDGING THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE!!

There are 1.2 billion Catholics worldwide. How many of them were in the polls you rely on and which countries were the polls taken.
It’s really sad to see someone rely on polls instead substantive evidence and facts.

 

[Peeps]

I do know that most people live in objectively mortal sin by using contraception. I do know that most people could have more children than they do.

You know nothing of the sort. I agree with thistle–stop judging others. Just stop.

There are many, many reasons for not having a child that you can’t possibly know. -

–family dynamics (which, if there is some kind of criminality, perversion, or addiction, or even “difficult personality”, you will not be privy to the information)

–the physical, mental, and emotional health of the parents and the other children in the family (and you may not be able to tell that there are issues–to you, the family members may seem well-adjusted and healthy)

–financial woes (again, that you can’t possibly see)

–genetic issues (one or both parents may be carrying a gene for a life-threatening condition. e.g., Sickle cell anemia)

–faith issues (one or both parents may be having doubts or some other crisis with the Church and wish to wait before bringing a child into this situation)

–job woes (pending lay-off, pending drop in salary, etc.)

–energy crisis (one of both parents may be at the point of physical or other type of exhaustion, or totally burned-out and not functioning well in their home)

I would even suggest that your “sin” of “not wanting a child at this time” is probably a legitimate and non-sinful reason to avoid pregnancy for a while in order to heal the souls and the emotions of a spouse that can harbor this negative sentiment.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Perhaps I should get a mantilla made that says, “Don’t worry! I’m not contracepting. I have fertility issues.” Perhaps then Homeschooling dad might have his mind put at ease.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I suppose you’d see me with only two kids and still well within childbearing years and think to yourself, “she must be contracepting. She could have more children!” And perhaps you’d see me going up for communion and think to yourself “how could she receive when she is surely contracepting”.

I would say no such thing. I would say, when I see 95% of a congregation going up to receive communion, that “they can’t all be accepting the teachings of the Church and living in accord with them”. Maybe they are. But I wouldn’t bet on it.

 

[Peeps]

Perhaps I should get a mantilla made that says, “Don’t worry! I’m not contracepting. I have fertility issues.” Perhaps then Homeschooling dad might have his mind out at ease.

Same for my daughter. Three years of trying. Thankfully she’s working with a doctor from Saint Pope Paul VI now, but even they only give a 75% chance of pregnancy.

To look at my gorgeous daughter and her handsome husband and see how fit and strong they are, you would think, “Of course they can have children, so they must be sinning by contracepting.”

And you would be wrong, and guilty of the sin of judging others.

 

[babochka]

I do know that most people could have more children than they do.

Is that the criteria now? How many children one has versus how many children one could have had? I have six children and I used NFP for a few months after a miscarriage. My last baby was born when I was 45 years old. But I suppose I could have had more. I could have nursed my baby’s for a shorter period of time and squeezed a couple more in there.

There is no requirement that a Catholic couple have as many children as possible.